Question: Spiritual Warfare In Ephesians

[Eddi]

This is a Spiritual Warfare post! Along with End Times, Spiritual Warfare is my favourite topic of conversation although I have never before (as far as I can remember) made threads about them on RF!

I have just come across something that I don't quite get...

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​

I believe that this passage is about resisting the power of those who are under the influence of Satan, in this our fallen world.

What does "the powers of this dark world" mean? - I think it means the political establishment and the ruling class, that's what I think. I think it means those who rule the Earth, in a manner that pleases Satan.

But this is the interesting bit: "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? (to put it crudely)

Also, I understand "spiritual forces of evil" to be referring to Satan and his influence - as opposed to "human forces of evil", which is the evil humans do on their own, without Satan.

My understanding of Christianity has always been that Satan is associated with Hell and is said to be in control of the Earth via his control over "the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world" - and that the Heavenly realms are associated with God, Heaven being the destination of those of us who are saved

So does anyone have any idea why such a call for spiritual warfare associates Satan with the Heavenly Realms? - because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

Or have I got it all wrong?

 

[an anarchist]

because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

Job 1 NIV
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

According to this, Satan has access to Heaven?

 

[Lain]

This is a Spiritual Warfare post! Along with End Times, Spiritual Warfare is my favourite topic of conversation although I have never before (as far as I can remember) made threads about them on RF!

I have just come across something that I don't quite get...

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​

I believe that this passage is about resisting the power of those who are under the influence of Satan, in this our fallen world.

What does "the powers of this dark world" mean? - I think it means the political establishment and the ruling class, that's what I think. I think it means those who rule the Earth, in a manner that pleases Satan.

But this is the interesting bit: "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? (to put it crudely)

Also, I understand "spiritual forces of evil" to be referring to Satan and his influence - as opposed to "human forces of evil", which is the evil humans do on their own, without Satan.

My understanding of Christianity has always been that Satan is associated with Hell and is said to be in control of the Earth via his control over "the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world" - and that the Heavenly realms are associated with God, Heaven being the destination of those of us who are saved

So does anyone have any idea why such a call for spiritual warfare associates Satan with the Heavenly Realms? - because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

Or have I got it all wrong?

Heaven is a word meaning sky, and there are different "parts" of it so-to-speak depending on context. In short: demons are above us and attempt to dominate the world. Satan is not in Hell but going "to and fro on the Earth" as the Scriptures said, and the demons wander through dusty places and in the air and so on, the last part is why they are said to be there in the "sky realms."

 

[Eddi]

According to this, Satan has access to Heaven?

Interesting

But I think that the scripture in question implies that the "spiritual forces of evil" are actually based in Heaven?

That's how I read it anyway

 

[Eddi]

I've just consulted the Amplified Bible

If we look at the Amplified Bible, we can see that in English translations the term "Heaven" is used to describe places that are "supernatural" in nature, so I think that in this scripture it is not simply referring to the sky but to some other (supernatural) dimension - basically, in an English bible the word "Heaven" is used for "supernatural place"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6:12&version=AMP

So I think I've just answered my own OP

Not all "supernatural" places are Heaven! - The term covers Hell too

 

[Alienistic]

What does "the powers of this dark world" mean? - I think it means the political establishment and the ruling class, that's what I think. I think it means those who rule the Earth

Well that’s no good then if the majority of the common populace trust in them, defend them, support them, and think that they are good, or at least have the best interest of the populace.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Or have I got it all wrong?

Being wrong does not mean your thoughts are unimportant or have no value or have no truth from God no inspiration of the spirit. I think in scripture truth shines through a person not out of them. James says we walk in the light but that it shines down from the Father. He says we are lights that are given birth by the word of truth. He also says we must walk in the light and not step out of it. He also says we have to continuously look into the truth and do what it says. If we stop looking we lose sight of it. That doesn't sound to me like a situation where we can afford to claim to know truth. James focuses on humility and talks about the problems people have communicating truth. He says our own tongues naturally burn everything and set everything on fire and poison everything.

I think the light of truth cannot shine through only one person. It is a group thing. Perhaps over your life's span you will over time experience parts of the truth, but you shouldn't ever expect to have all of it at once. One quote has Jesus saying something like: "No one knows, not even me. Only the Father knows." That's one of the more difficult quotes, but the main thing is that nobody is correct. People who say otherwise probably shouldn't be talking.

"Heavenly realm" is a secretive term to outsiders; and you and I are outsiders to the insiders; but lets pretend we can figure it out. Using the context it probably refers to authority such as governments, religious leaders and how things are done. It might include the nomos ( @crossfire ) or the way people talk and think, the assumptions we make. I think that's why there can be war in heaven (like in Revelation) even though Satan is cast out of heaven, and its how Satan can be in heaven making bets on Job's life.

My interpretation of heaven is not literal, and it does not literally integrate into the story of Jesus flying up into heaven after his resurrection. So it may not suit everyone, but I will say that it may contain some truth. Truth is bright enough to shine through many things.

 

[stvdv]

Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? (to put it crudely)

Makes sense to me, when I think about what my Master shared with us:
My Master said on a few occasions "IF people would be trouble in the world, I keep them close to me"
Those close to Him were happy to be close to Him. So, it even worked both way ... a win win situation

 

[Kooky]

So does anyone have any idea why such a call for spiritual warfare associates Satan with the Heavenly Realms? - because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

As far as I can tell, the Christian Devil figure is a conflation of at least three distinct characters from the OT.

 

[1213]

...
Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? ...

I think spiritual level is like mind, ideas and thoughts level. From mind comes all evil actions.

For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies
Matt. 15:19

That is why I think the spiritual fight is basically in the level of thoughts and ideas. Governments also usually work on that level and from there they will bring all the tyrannical ideas in to practice. This is why I think the fight means, we resist evil ideas, like suppressing freedom of speech defend basic human rights that governments want to destroy.

 

[crossfire]

This is a Spiritual Warfare post! Along with End Times, Spiritual Warfare is my favourite topic of conversation although I have never before (as far as I can remember) made threads about them on RF!

I have just come across something that I don't quite get...

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​

I believe that this passage is about resisting the power of those who are under the influence of Satan, in this our fallen world.

What does "the powers of this dark world" mean? - I think it means the political establishment and the ruling class, that's what I think. I think it means those who rule the Earth, in a manner that pleases Satan.

But this is the interesting bit: "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? (to put it crudely)

Also, I understand "spiritual forces of evil" to be referring to Satan and his influence - as opposed to "human forces of evil", which is the evil humans do on their own, without Satan.

My understanding of Christianity has always been that Satan is associated with Hell and is said to be in control of the Earth via his control over "the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world" - and that the Heavenly realms are associated with God, Heaven being the destination of those of us who are saved

So does anyone have any idea why such a call for spiritual warfare associates Satan with the Heavenly Realms? - because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

Or have I got it all wrong?

Since this is the Scriptural Debate forum, I will offer a bit of Buddhist scripture that I will hide behind spoiler tags which I believe describes the means of action by which "the spiritual forces of evil in heavenly realms" propagates and how evil spreads among humans:
Kalama Sutta

Spoiler

The spiritual battle: the question of how to discern the good and the evil in this battle?:

3. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta sitting on one side said to the Blessed One: "There are some monks and brahmans, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and brahmans too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt, there is uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and brahmans spoke the truth and which falsehood?"​

The action through which this evil spreads: greed hatred and delusion spread in a collective manner causing people's minds to be overcome, and then spread this mental state to others in order to spread the evil deeds:

5. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" — "For his harm, venerable sir." — "Kalamas, being given to greed, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by greed, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" — "Yes, venerable sir."

6. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does hate appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" — "For his harm, venerable sir." — "Kalamas, being given to hate, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by hate, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" — "Yes, venerable sir."

7. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" — "For his harm, venerable sir." — "Kalamas, being given to delusion, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by delusion, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" — "Yes, venerable sir."

8. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" — "Bad, venerable sir" — "Blamable or not blamable?" — "Blamable, venerable sir." — "Censured or praised by the wise?" — "Censured, venerable sir." — "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to harm and ill, or not? Or how does it strike you?" — "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill. Thus it strikes us here."​

The means of battle: Abandon doctrines that preach greed, hatred, and delusion, no matter how much pretzel logic these doctrines use to try to cover up and justify this greed, hatred, or delusion. Examples of such pretzel logic used to deploy greed, hatred or delusion to the masses:

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.​

The criteria for rejection (quoted in verse 5-7 above) is the preaching of greed, hatred or delusion--which leads to long-term harm.

The criteria for acceptance: doctrines that help people overcome their greed, hatred, or delusion. Verses 10-15.

The results of successful "warfare:" the Buddhist version of the fruits of the spirit: the four sublime states: Metta-- loving-kindness; Karuna--compassion; Mudita--empathetic joy; Upekka: evenness of mind--peace of mind--sanity--the ability to resist your mind being overcome by greed, hatred, and delusion--in short: self-control. (Compare to the works of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit {love, joy; faith, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, mildness, self-control. at Galatians 5)

See Galatians 5:13-26 for a Christian version of this spiritual warfare.

 

[Firelight]

This is a Spiritual Warfare post! Along with End Times, Spiritual Warfare is my favourite topic of conversation although I have never before (as far as I can remember) made threads about them on RF!

I have just come across something that I don't quite get...

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​

I believe that this passage is about resisting the power of those who are under the influence of Satan, in this our fallen world.

What does "the powers of this dark world" mean? - I think it means the political establishment and the ruling class, that's what I think. I think it means those who rule the Earth, in a manner that pleases Satan.

But this is the interesting bit: "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

Not just "the spiritual forces of evil" but specifically "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

I don't understand this - surely to be "heavenly" is to be close to God, and surely "the heavenly realms" is where God resides? (to put it crudely)

Also, I understand "spiritual forces of evil" to be referring to Satan and his influence - as opposed to "human forces of evil", which is the evil humans do on their own, without Satan.

My understanding of Christianity has always been that Satan is associated with Hell and is said to be in control of the Earth via his control over "the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world" - and that the Heavenly realms are associated with God, Heaven being the destination of those of us who are saved

So does anyone have any idea why such a call for spiritual warfare associates Satan with the Heavenly Realms? - because I always thought that the narrative is that he was kicked out of Heaven

Or have I got it all wrong?

This is Ephesians 6:12 in the KJV:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

It says close to the same thing, but uses “high places” rather than “heavenly realms.”

I can see how “heavenly” and “high,” “realms” and “places” could possibly get translated from the same words of another language. A foreign word doesn’t always have one simple direct word to be translated into and the translator must choose a word he thinks is best.

In this case, “high places” makes more sense and fits in with what the rest of the scripture is saying.

Some people will not accept a single word from a bible that isn’t their own church’s version, as if their version of the Bible were perfectly translated, which it isn’t. But, it can be helpful to be flexible in looking at another Bible version of the same scripture in cases such as this, to see if it offers any clarity.