Question to anyone... But mainly to female transgenders

[Shadow Wolf]

And even then, they often passed just fine and/or deliberately chose a lifestyle that allowed them to live comfortably and with minimal hassle.

That's not true. MtFs generally have never passed well as a group. And what lifestyles where chosen?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is different than abortion and gay rights. Neither of those issues demands others change how they go about things,

That's not what they say.
And, yeah. Lom at the state of being trans today. It's banned even for adults to medically transition in some states. We didn't bring that on ourselves.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Prior to the current wave of activism and sociopolitical turmoil of the past few years.

If things had always been this way there wouldn't be the chaos we're witnessing now.

This is an extremely myopic view of the last ten+ years. (And longer, too. Since trans people have been the focus of discrimination all the way since the sexology book burnings of Hitler, with the same drivel you hear today about 'think of the children' and 'moral compass of a nation') Trans legal battles were going all throughout Obama's presidency and then continued in reverse during Trump's. Starting in 2010 with Obama's anti-discrimination laws which named Trans anti-discrimination specifically, which became a major ticket item in Trump's campaign to restore conservative values on gender and sex. And since about all Trump did was try to reverse everything Obama did, the numerous anti-discrimination laws being reversed was a daily onslaught of news.

Riding on Trump's coattails are people like DeSantis who is pushing the envelope to normalize evangelical pushback against ALL LGBT inclusion laws. Not just Trans ones. Because, again, this is a wedge issue Republicans are using.

It is pure victim blaming drivel to lay this at the feet of trans people you think are less valid.

 

[SomeRandom]

I would say neither, and they're generally delusional about their ability to pass. They think they can go around with facial hair in a dress and that's womanly.

Oh. Is this a thing in the trans community? Like there are people who don’t put a lot of effort into “properly” transitioning?
I’m not asking to be rude or anything like that. So please forgive my ignorance.
I’m just genuinely curious

Yeah, that's been happening. I saw a video of one incidence of that. And to think that ignorant buffoons think that trans men like me should be in the women's room.

Quite sad to see, to be sure

I’ve known a fair few women over the years (cis even) who presented as somewhat masculine, for whatever reason. I’m sure it’s down to hormones or what have you.
(Been a while since high school biology. Apologies.)

One girl I knew in high school had to shave her upper lip every day, else she would get what resembled a moustache. Caused her quite a lot of insecurity, I’m afraid to say.

 

[Callisto]

That's not what they say.

Which they? No snark, not sure.

And, yeah. Lom at the state of being trans today. It's banned even for adults to medically transition in some states. We didn't bring that on ourselves.

That's because extremism is being met with opposing extremism. That's what I was referring to before about the people who are going to suffer the most are actual trans persons and detransitioners. The one thing that people on either side should be able to agree upon without question is that trans is an adult space (i.e., no one has any business telling an adult what they can or can't do with their health decisions). Yet, that's being threatened because of other issues like "coming after children". Right or wrong in a matter, when parents feel their parental rights and their children's well-being is at stake, they will go to war. All of these issues are intertwined and, yes, a chain reaction is almost inevitable where reaction to one thing impacts other things.

 

[SomeRandom]

Trolls, agitators, radical trans activists, poseurs, and untreated mental illnesses. This wasn't a problem when transgender referred to people who actually have gender dysphoria to the degree that medical transitioning was necessary to feel comfortable in their own skin and resulted in them successfully presenting as their desired gender. Back then, a transwoman (or transman) would go about their day and no one was the wiser and they certainly didn't make a point of letting people know they're transgender.

This current discord has all come about since the trans community has been infiltrated by ideology and morphed into a political movement. Now, you don't need dysphoria to be trans, much less be on cross-sex hormones or make any effort to present as the gender you're claiming. Hell, you don't even need to feel male or female despite that being the crux of wanting to transition. And if anyone says anything, just scream bigotry. Social media fuels this since we're in the era of narcissism and clicks. There is no shortage of people online who are obviously male causing a ruckus because they were "misgendered" or someone had a problem with a burly man entering women's bathrooms.

This video gives a good overview: (warning: language)

Informative frubal

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I’ve known a fair few women over the years (cis even) who presented as somewhat masculine, for whatever reason. I’m sure it’s down to hormones or what have you.

One girl I knew in high school had to shave her upper lip every day, else she would get what resembled a moustache. Caused her quite a lot of insecurity, I’m afraid to say.

I'm one of those too. Not the insecurity part but definitely the don't put a lot of effort into trying to make myself appear feminine despite having higher than usual androgen hormone levels such as testosterone, which causes a beard which I irregularly shave. I'm not trans but I would hope any trans person doesn't feel like they have to meet a 'passing' standard to be welcome within their community, because I certainly don't have a 'you must be this socially accepted level of feminine for me to use your preferred pronouns or treat you like a man or woman.'

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which they? No snark, not sure.

Conservative, Evangelical Christians.

That's because extremism is being met with opposing extremism. That's what I was referring to before about the people who are going to suffer the most are actual trans persons and detransitioners. The one thing that people on either side should be able to agree upon without question is that trans is an adult space (i.e., no one has any business telling an adult what they can or can't do with their health decisions). Yet, that's being threatened because of other issues like "coming after children". Right or wrong in a matter, when parents feel their parental rights and their children's well-being is at stake, they will go to war. All of these issues are intertwined and, yes, a chain reaction is almost inevitable where reaction to one thing impacts other things.

I know that's what you're saying. I'm saying bull. That's victim blaming and ignoring how the aggressors have been the aggreasors long before this. They've just been recently empowered en masse by a president who was only capable of speaking hate.

 

[Callisto]

That's not true. MtFs generally have never passed well as a group. And what lifestyles where chosen?

MtF have a harder time than FtM but it's not like they never transition well enough to pass, that's simply just not true.

As for lifestyles, those that tend to be more bohemian or alternative as people in those communities tend not to give a crap. In that way, it parallels people who are into extreme body modification and who also don't fit stereotypical looks.

 

[Callisto]

This is an extremely myopic view of the last ten+ years. (And longer, too. Since trans people have been the focus of discrimination all the way since the sexology book burnings of Hitler, with the same drivel you hear today about 'think of the children' and 'moral compass of a nation') Trans legal battles were going all throughout Obama's presidency and then continued in reverse during Trump's. Starting in 2010 with Obama's anti-discrimination laws which named Trans anti-discrimination specifically, which became a major ticket item in Trump's campaign to restore conservative values on gender and sex. And since about all Trump did was try to reverse everything Obama did, the numerous anti-discrimination laws being reversed was a daily onslaught of news.

Riding on Trump's coattails are people like DeSantis who is pushing the envelope to normalize evangelical pushback against ALL LGBT inclusion laws. Not just Trans ones. Because, again, this is a wedge issue Republicans are using.

It is pure victim blaming drivel to lay this at the feet of trans people you think are less va

No, it's a realistic one. But you see things however you wish.
lid.

No, it's a realistic look. But you look at it however you want as I have zero interest in changing anyone's mind, things speak for themselves. You're not talking to anyone who's not well acquainted with the LGBTQ+ community.

I didn't say that trans issues popped up overnight, rather I indicated the current climate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

MtF have a harder time than FtM but it's not like they never transition well enough to pass, that's simply just not true.

It's rare they do. It happens, but not often at all.

As for lifestyles, those that tend to be more bohemian or alternative as people in those communities tend not to give a crap. In that way, it parallels people who are into extreme body modification and who also don't fit stereotypical looks.

That's not what it has been. Long ago you had to be so stereotypically female you had to take a pink collar job and be attracted to men.

 

[Callisto]

Conservative, Evangelical Christians.


I know that's what you're saying. I'm saying bull. That's victim blaming and ignoring how the aggressors have been the aggreasors long before this. They've just been recently empowered en masse by a president who was only capable of speaking hate.

It's not victim blaming. I've pointed out who are the actual victims of this and they're being caused by both sides of the debate.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm one of those too. Not the insecurity part but definitely the don't put a lot of effort into trying to make myself appear feminine despite having higher than usual androgen hormone levels such as testosterone, which causes a beard which I irregularly shave. I'm not trans but I would hope any trans person doesn't feel like they have to meet a 'passing' standard to be welcome within their community, because I certainly don't have a 'you must be this socially accepted level of feminine for me to use your preferred pronouns or treat you like a man or woman.'

Interesting.
My lack of femininity is more social in nature.
Both my cultures view my presentation and interests as quite masculine (or at least tomboy in nature lol)
As such I find that I actually feel more included and comfortable in the non binary communities I’ve stumbled into over the years.

But I don’t really identify as non binary. Or trans.
In saying that, I’ve come to realise that I don’t actually place any value in my own gender identity really. It’s something that I don’t really think about or even care about.
I am female I guess is my attitude.
Maybe there’s a word for that, I don’t know.

But I do agree with you.
Unfortunately I think people in all communities can get a bit “clique-y.” Regardless of their histories. So that may well be a thing, idk

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not victim blaming. I've pointed out who are the actual victims of this and they're being caused by both sides of the debate.

You called it extremism being met with extremism. That's not only an inaccurate reflection of the situation, it is blaming the victim by saying it's their fault it's like this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

MtF have a harder time than FtM but it's not like they never transition well enough to pass, that's simply just not true.

Yeah, there's many trans women who pass just fine and you wouldn't be able to tell, even without FFS. There's also FTMs who don't really pass, even with testosterone. Sometimes it doesn't really even change their voice.

 

[Callisto]

It's rare they do. It happens, but not often at all.

That's not what it has been. Long ago you had to be so stereotypically female you had to take a pink collar job and be attracted to men.

Like most things, the better care and money you have, the more is feasible. Other people are blessed with features that don't make changing appearance that difficult (e.g., guys with less prominent Adam's apples).

I'm a Pagan who works in the entertainment industry, two things that have a lot of LGBTQ members. I know all about who has to stay closeted and how often and when someone can pass.

 

[Callisto]

You called it extremism being met with extremism. That's not only an inaccurate reflection of the situation, it is blaming the victim by saying it's their fault it's like this.

That is a precise description. If you disagree then, at a guess, it's possible you're somewhere on the more extreme side of the debate.

 

[SomeRandom]

I know the trans medicalists hate it when I post this video, but this is a perspective from years ago by a trans woman who criticizes passing standards, gatekeeping trans identities based on level of pain, or even having a set binary on what it means to be trans.

It's deep into the various 'in-house' debates, but at least sheds some light on the complicated nuance of who is bad faith and who is genuine but not as binary as some trans people with intense dysphoria would like.

Love Contra!!!

Actually thinking about it, I realise that I actually follow quite a few trans and/or non binary content creators on YT
HannahReloaded, Philosophytube, Jessie Gender, DemonMama, Council of Geeks etc

No wonder I’m such a degenerate

 

[Callisto]

Yeah, there's many trans women who pass just fine and you wouldn't be able to tell, even without FFS. There's also FTMs who don't really pass, even with testosterone. Sometimes it doesn't really even change their voice.

Agreed, I've known more than just a few. The quality of care, how much they can or are willing to go, and just winning or losing the Nature lottery, so to speak, in having features that transition well or don't, are all variables that contribute to the person's journey.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is a precise description. If you disagree then, at a guess, it's possible you're somewhere on the more extreme side of the debate.

Its possible I'm somewhere on an extreme side because I'm looking at this from a long term perspective?