Question to Atheists: Living for here and now or living for a place with God in the next.

[F1fan]

God is the best reward, power comes from him, higher ranks are attained with respect to him in the next world.

He is the best being to prove yourself to and to get to know. And we all die and so this world reputation and ranks go out the window and become forgotten.

So those are among reasons to live for God.

But I'm saying - people can't live for God if they doubt him. So why not reach out to God to remove the doubt. And why not research religions and take a bet with the more rational one, and try to seek an intermediation through it's chosen ones as well and ask God to intervene and remove the doubt?

The problem is we don't hear directly from any gods. We only hear all this from fallible mortals, like yourself, who could be mistaken. So your say so isn't good enough.

You offer no facts of cause and effect. You only recite beliefs that seem directed at yourself so you can be more convinced yourself that you believe.

It is actually doubt that gives us clarity, because then we can start asking questions to distill truth from dogmas. Your appeals to reject doubt is what coercion does. This only works on weak, susceptible minds who are seeking some sort of meaning and significance beyond their own, personal authority and executive function. What makes this dangerous is how these kinds of believers can be manipulated and coerced by leadership for tasks that are supposedly "God's will". We have seen this before, how believers who do NOT doubt will do evil acts against innocent people for the sake of God.

 

[Link]

We having a good discussion all. I need to watch some videos for my class. I will be back way later or tomorrow.

 

[Psalm23]

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

I have faith in God as a Christian. I don't have faith in Islam. I feel content in my own faith.

 

[icehorse]

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

This is a false dilemma argument. In other words, you're implying that there are only two paths here, when in fact there are many.

Now let's say that I believed in the god that Muslims depict (or for that matter, the god that Christians depict). I don't think what he's offering is very appealing. The "abrahamic" god strikes me as a loathsome character that I don't want to spend any time trying to impress. Your god - as described in the Quran - is a narcissist, a liar, greedy, very, very, cruel, and so on.

I think that the utilitarian philosophy is much more sensible and satisfying than what Muslims or Christians try to sell us.

 

[ChristineM]

Oh okay, so it feels silly because you don't find proof/evidence of God. That's why you won't do it.

Understood.

I won't do it because my life as an atheist tells me not to waste my time when I could be actually doing something to alleviate the problem you think I should reach out to a myth to fix.

Yes wasting time is silly


Edit : and can i ask that you reference me in some way when replying to me. That way it will show up in my alerts and i won't have to guess or in this case, be surprised when checking out another post.

Thanks for your comprehension

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

A whole lot of words to basically challenge us with Pascal's Wager. The problem is, though, that if there is no "next life," then it would be a real shame to waste the only one you get.

 

[Nimos]

At the end, I agree to some extent, you and I both looking at the same thing with respect to God. You see it as a concept, while it see as the living being.

I look at God as I would anything else really, I make no difference here.

If you claimed that aliens existed, I would say the exact same things. The big difference as I see it, is that you take the word of the claimer (Quran) as being true, whereas I want the claimer to demonstrate that aliens do in fact exist, and if they can't, I see no good reason to believe that their claim is true.
I respect "God" to the extent that I myself can't conclude whether one exist or doesn't, meaning if I were to disrespect the idea or concept, I might as well claim that one didn't existed.
I will gladly however have a go at the religious texts for their teachings, if I disagree with them. Because we know they exist and we can read what they say and we can have an opinion about them, whether we agree or disagree with them.

 

[F1fan]

Again no, i find it bloody stupid to reach out to "reach out" to Santa Claus, leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns and gods because there is no evidence for their existence.

What makes you so sure a god exists to judge you after death?

My view is, you die, consciousness dies with you, what is left is mostly organic molecules, atoms... That will eventually wind up helping to create something else. A plant, a bird, another human being... In this way we are all made of dead people.

In the far reaches of time when this world is annihilated the atoms that are me may help to form another sun or world.

And the thing is, to have evidence, hard, fact to tell me this is the reality of what will happen. The 1stnlaw of thermodynamics.

You and me have near identical perspectives on all this.

I can say that as a personal experiment with my own loses in life that my agony and trauma pushed me to like the suggestions put out by theists, of life going on, of seeing loved ones again. As much as my rational mind understands it is my pain that wants these ideas to be true they do feel good to consider. I'm not the only atheist who has had this experience. Psychology has worked to explain how the brain/mind creates and adopts ideas that help ease the pain of loss. We have to function as adults and so have to use mental tools to compartmentalize how we grieve.

It is understandable how tempting this kind of thinking can become habitual for people who have social anxiety, or ongoing trauma, or lack feeling significant. These beliefs are learned and readily available for application by non-believers. The human brain is not a very ideal organ. We evolved intelligence but our fight or flight mechanism is still very much intact, and it causes us problems. Imagine humans being more like Spock and isn't so easily motivated by emotions, or reactive to emotions and making stupid mistakes.

 

[firedragon]

Smitty Werbenjagermanjensen. And do you know why?

Because some cant relate.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Because some cant relate.

Not entirely inaccurate. But more accurately, because he was #1!

 

[QuestioningMind]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

Let me ask you, if I told you to sincerely reach out to magical pixies for which I can provide absolutely no verifiable evidence, would you be able to do it? Could you SINCERELY reach out to something you have no reason to believe is real? Personally I find that to be impossible. I could PRETEND to reach out to something that I have no reason believe actually exists, but I'd be lying if I claimed I could do so with any sincerity.

 

[Link]

is that you take the word of the claimer (Quran) as being true,

The Quran is mysterious. It can prove God by reminding of signs of God, but also, it needs God to be proven in some of philosophical proofs.

Some people come to faith in God through it and thank God for the majesty and glory they experience through Quran and come to be reminded and then trust in what it says about God.

Others will only believe in Quran after knowing God exists and seeing it's philosophical wonders.

First time believing in God - It was due to Quran. Then I disbelieved when I knew God from reasoning - I did it to escape belief in hell really, and made problems in my head about Quran (wrote 28 Issues on shiachat in a document) when there was none.

I then became a Deist (who believed in spirits/angels) that was on a mission to convert Atheists to Deism for some years.

The thing that happened, is, due to the problem of evil, and lack of explanation, I came up with a silly argument to do away with God (that was unrelated to the problem of evil).

I said God didn't earn his value since he is eternal. And hence God is a paradox, valued is earned, yet he is eternally rich in value.

Anyways, I became an atheist for 2 weeks or a bit less or bit more, forgotten right now.

But I realized something with certainty at that point. Praise/morality would also be an illusion if naturalism was true and there is no supernatural world and we evolved from evolution.

All I wanted was to see how praise/value can possible be there and meaningful, but none of the atheists could reason, how assigning value was even possible with a valueless world. I reasoned why in details subjective value not based on estimating objective value or even guessing it, can't happen really, unless you believe in objective value. This doesn't say it exists.

At this point, I began to see the signs in my soul so vividly, and Quranic truths began to take me.

It was not long after I not only came back to faith in God but would become Muslim. But then I went through a phase of belief, disbelief, within same week, sometimes switch twice in same day, and was searching.

I would often call myself Deist for two weeks, and then would eat HARAM, and then the next week I would eat ONLY HALAL.

You guys have no idea how much I searched. At the end, it was intercession of Mohammad (s) that showed me what I was really going through inside (with my madness), and only after that, I was able to heal and perceive things with mental clarity. And only after that, was I able to do well in life.

Other Muslims you might say didn't put effort into religion question, just held on to their family or community, etc, but this is not fair to assess me as simply believing in Quran and believing in God out of that.

 

[Link]

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

Let me ask you, if I told you to sincerely reach out to magical pixies for which I can provide absolutely no verifiable evidence, would you be able to do it? Could you SINCERELY reach out to something you have no reason to believe is real? Personally I find that to be impossible. I could PRETEND to reach out to something that I have no reason believe actually exists, but I'd be lying if I claimed I could do so with any sincerity.

If not Islam, I would probably incline to soothsaying religion and seek help from magical pixies (and probably would end up believing in them - they are called Jinn in Quran).

 

[firedragon]

Not entirely inaccurate. But more accurately, because he was #1!

Really? News to u?

 

[QuestioningMind]

If not Islam, I would probably incline to soothsaying religion and seek help from magical pixies (and probably would end up believing in them - they are called Jinn in Quran).

Sounds like you're saying that you could pretend to believe in anything and eventually you actually would. Sounds rather dangerous to me... you could end up convincing yourself that immoral things are not. Personally I'm not capable of deluding myself like that. I can pretend to believe in Islam, but it would be a lie and I'd know it was a lie, so I could never convince myself it was true.

 

[Link]

Sounds like you're saying that you could pretend to believe in anything and eventually you actually would. Sounds rather dangerous to me... you could end up convincing yourself that immoral things are not. Personally I'm not capable of deluding myself like that. I can pretend to believe in Islam, but it would be a lie and I'd know it was a lie, so I could never convince myself it was true.

I would give it a chance is what I'm saying. Don't think there is smoke without fire approach at least give it a chance.

 

[Link]

you could end up convincing yourself that immoral things are not

As I did when I left Islam

 

[Link]

I won't do it because my life as an atheist tells me not to waste my time when I could be actually doing something to alleviate the problem you think I should reach out to a myth to fix.

Yes wasting time is silly


Edit : and can i ask that you reference me in some way when replying to me. That way it will show up in my alerts and i won't have to guess or in this case, be surprised when checking out another post.

Thanks for your comprehension

To me, life is temporary, seeking to know God and establish myself in next world, would not be a waste of time. It would be right thing to do unless I am 100% certain there is no God or no next world.

 

[ChristineM]

To me, life is temporary, seeking to know God and establish myself in next world, would not be a waste of time. It would be right thing to do unless I am 100% certain there is no God or no next world.

Yup, that's me 100% certain.

And more than temporary, life it terminal

 

[Link]

A whole lot of words to basically challenge us with Pascal's Wager. The problem is, though, that if there is no "next life," then it would be a real shame to waste the only one you get.

To living a life to make sure you die honorable in eyes of a Creator (who ended up not existing) would be a waste? In what way? Those temporary pleasures would be gone. So what if they didn't happen. It's not that bad of an idea to sacrifice as much of pleasures for next world, because if we lost next, we lose it all in the long run.