Question to Christians - Peter as the Rock or Paul?

[Ehav4Ever]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Deeje]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

In context Matthew 16:13-19...

"13 Now when Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you yourselves say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” (NASB)

The answer to question 1 is that Jesus was not being literal regarding Peter.

From Strongs.....
“I also G2532 say G3004 to you that you are Peter G4074 (petros, a small stone) and upon this G3778 rock G4073 (Petra large rock or bedock) I will build G3618 My church; G1577 and the gates G4439 of Hades G86 will not overpower G2729 it."

In the Greek, Jesus called Peter a 'small pebble' but referred to himself as the 'bedrock' upon which his "church" (or congregation) was built. He is the foundation of his own church.

Peter was one of the Twelve Apostles. He was not elevated above the rest, but was given certain responsibilities regarding the preaching work...."the keys of the Kingdom" were to be used figuratively to introduce others besides Jews to enter the Kingdom of God. Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles were given opportunities in line with God's promise to Abraham to "bless all nations" through the seed that he would produce in Abraham's lineage. (Genesis 22:15-18)

2. Paul was a former Pharisee who was converted by the resurrected Jesus himself as a "chosen vessel"....one who was well educated in God's Law and taught at the feet of Gamaliel....he would speak before kings and governors as well as to the Greek philosophers. The humble fishermen Jesus chose initially, were not educated men, so Paul's assignment was specific. Both contributed in a large way to the Christian story.

3. Peter was one of the apostles, all of whom Jesus taught equally. They had a specific assignment for which they all worked hard to fulfill their commission. Few though were used to write books of the Bible. Matthew, Peter and John wrote portions and so did Paul. But since all were inspired by the same holy spirit, there were none of more value than the others.

4. No one replaced Christ as the "Foundation Stone" of his congregation.....Peter and Paul as well as Matthew and John and other disciples all contributed to the NT accounts of how from small beginnings, Christianity was spread throughout the known world of that time as well as how Gentiles were welcomed into the fold after Jesus' death.

We remember that many Egyptians joined the Jews in their Exodus from Egypt because of witnessing the power of God over the impotent gods of Egypt. God never excluded other people from coming into his nation.....he just had strict criteria about it.

Many Gentiles witnessed the power of God when Jesus and his apostles were able to perform miracles as God's ancient servants had done before them.

 

[Estro Felino]

Let us not forget that in Greek ekklisia meant assembly first. Not building.
But a congregation of men.
Simon (that is his real name) was called Petros because petra means rock, stone.
So a rocks might imply something tangible...material...a building.
But it might remain a metaphor.

Pauline theology is slightly controversial for some Christians like me (being a Pelagian).
There is a hierarchy in the New Testament. The Gospels are God's words. Being about Jesus' teaching...and Jesus is God.
Paul's epistles are not God's words. They are personal advices given to the first churches of Anatolia, Greece and Rome.
Meaning...these communities used to write to Paul...sometimes very long letters. Paul used to answer them... .but he never meant to transform these letters into a New Gospel.
Paul himself said he was just a preacher, an apostle. He was not Jesus.

So I think it is wrong how certain Churches gave more importance to the Pauline epistles than the Gospels.

 

[exchemist]

Let us not forget that in Greek ekklisia meant assembly first. Not building.
But a congregation of man.
Simon (that is his real name) was called Petros because petra means rock, stone.
So a rocks might imply something tangible...material...a building.
But it might remain a metaphor.

Pauline theology is slightly controversial for some Christians like me (being a Pelagian).
There is a hierarchy in the New Testament. The Gospels are God's words. Being about Jesus' teaching...and Jesus is God.
Paul's epistles are not God's words. They are personal advices given to the first churches of Anatolia, Greece and Rome.
Meaning...these communities used to write to Paul...sometimes very long letters. Paul used to answer them... .but he never meant to transform these letters into a New Gospel.
Paul himself said he was just a preacher, an apostle. He was not Jesus.

So I think it is wrong how certain Churches gave more importance to the Pauline epistles than the Gospels.

Very well expressed.

(I agree entirely about St. Paul.)

 

[Estro Felino]

Very well expressed.

(I agree entirely about St. Paul.)

Thank you.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

I agree with much of what Deeje says.

The Hebrew scriptures teach us about the Rock, which is God [Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 18:2,31] Peter is not the Rock. To confirm this we only need to look at other passages of scripture, in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Christ is described as the Rock, confirming that he comes from God [1 Corinthians 10:4]. Jesus makes this clear when he says, 'Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.' [Luke 6:47,48]

Jesus Christ is also referred to as the 'corner stone' of the temple, the body of Christ. Matthew 21:42. 'Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in your eyes?'

 

[Glaurung]

According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?

Clearly Saint Peter did not turn into stone nor did Christ hand Saint Peter any physical keys. (At least that we know of). If you're Catholic, it means that Peter was made head of the Church and that the Church headed by his successors (the popes) will survive to the end of the world.

Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?

Again, if you're Catholic the Church is the community of baptized Christians in communion with the pope and his bishops. Not a building or a location.

Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?

Saint Peter's seat is said to have been in Rome. Thus the pope is also Bishop of Rome.

If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?

That the bulk of the epistles are attributed to Saint Paul is unrelated to Saint Peter's position as head of the Church. The question is a non-sequitur.

Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?

He certainly didn't win any elections. Christ chose Saint Peter to be his vicar. Saint Peter held his position by divine mandate. Because Christ had chosen him.

Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

No. Saint Paul was ranked among Apostles (despite not being one the the twelve) but Saint Peter held the keys. That Saint Paul's epistles were eventually recognized as scripture by the Church has nothing whatsoever to do with Saint Peter's rank as head of the Apostles and thus the Church. Again, this whole thread is a non-sequitur. The question does not make sense because you're connecting two unrelated questions.

 

[Kenny]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

As I understand it... Jesus is the Rock - and the rock that Peter (stone is Peter's name) used was the faith that "You are the Christ" and upon this "rock" of a statement, Jesus would build His church.

 

[pearl]

Both Peter and Paul are recognized as the two pillars of the Church.
As saints of the Church they share the same feast day. Interestingly, Christ chose a fisherman who couldn’t always be brave and a Jew who hated Christians to lead his Church.

 

[firedragon]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

I think it was a struggle between them (according to the Bible) to steer Christianity in the way they perceived as taught by Jesus. I will not try and argue who was right, but it seems like they were having that divide, and Pauline theology won in the end.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

Paul was the apostle for Gentiles. The earliest texts in NT are his letters to local churches. Peter was leading the community of Jewish followers of Jesus.

Paul himself explained this in the epistle to Galatians (emphasis added):

"But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas [Peter], and stayed with him fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother /... /

Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain /... /

But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised."

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Many scriptures refer to Christ as the Rock. Why would God build a church on a mere human when His devine Son was right there? It is God's church built on Christ. Any church built on Peter is a false church started by man, not God.

 

[Kenny]

Many scriptures refer to Christ as the Rock. Why would God build a church on a mere human when His devine Son was right there? It is God's church built on Christ. Any church built on Peter is a false church started by man, not God.

great answer

 

[WalterTrull]

"...this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. "
Always figured that was the rock.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think it was a struggle between them (according to the Bible) to steer Christianity in the way they perceived as taught by Jesus. I will not try and argue who was right, but it seems like they were having that divide, and Pauline theology won in the end.

That was very probable. Thank you for this observation.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

great answer

Thank you. I thought it was pretty good too.

 

[halbhh]

Questions to Christians:

According to the NT Matthew 16:18.

English Standard Version
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

1. According to Christianity, was Jesus being literal with this statement? I.e. Peter was to be the foundation of his Church or was it some type of metaphor?
   • Was he speaking of an actual church that existed in the location where he said it?
   • Did Peter start a particular church that still stands today?
2. If it was literal, why is the majority of the NT texts written by, or attributed to Paul?
3. Also, if it was literal how was the statement realized/accomplished by Peter? I.e. is there something he actually did that Christians associate with him fulfilling this statement?
4. Again, since Paul seems to be the source of a large amount of Christian theology is it possible that Paul replaced Peter as the rock?

Thanks in advance.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

"this rock" -- the rock is the realization/Truth that Jesus is the Christ, from God, the very Son of God, Who has come to save us from our sins, and that through faith in Him can we be saved.

That is the sure foundation: believing on Jesus in a real way, so that you listen to what He says and then keep His words. The same rock --> Matthew 7:24-27
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.