Questions about baptism

[Desert Snake]

From reading the forums, I have gathered that it seems like Xians are basically of the belief that Jesus baptizes at the time of the church baptism. These are some questions that immediately come to mind, regarding this idea.

-Does the baptizer control the time that Jesus baptizes.
-Does the person getting baptized control the time that Jesus baptizes
-Is Jesus unable to baptize without the church ceremony taking place
-If someone changes religion, then rejoins the church, do they have to get baptized again, if not, why not.

Some thoughts.
If Jesus only baptizes at the time of the church baptism, then doesn't the power of the baptism ultimately belong to this ceremony.
If baptism by Jesus only occurs at the time of the church baptism, is this not physical ceremony that directly affects the actions of Jesus, in other words, 'magic'.
If one believes that the baptism by Jesus occurs only at the time of the church baptism, then how is the church baptism not the action that is part of and therefore required, for Jesus to baptize. Does this not mean that baptism is a magic ceremony.

 

[lovemuffin]

From reading the forums, I have gathered that it seems like Xians are basically of the belief that Jesus baptizes at the time of the church baptism.

I haven't heard this before, so I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the idea of "baptism in the Holy Spirit"?

I would think of baptism as a sacrament performed by people and not by Jesus, and as a symbol of Christian transformation following the same pattern as Christ's death and resurrection. There's plenty that could be said about this, but I think most of the things that should be said don't have anything to do with separating people into buckets of "saved" and "unsaved", which seems to be the motivation behind the sort of "magical ceremony"-esque approach? I would guess most of my disagreement with it really amounts to a different understanding of salvation.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Some basic info that may address at least some of your questions:

Jesus does not baptize. He instructed people to baptize. A baptism has its effect as water is either poured on the head of the person being baptized or he/she is immersed in water, and the words that Jesus specified are spoken by the person baptizing – “I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Therefore, only one baptism can be valid, whether a person changes religions or not. However, some Protestants don’t accept the validity of any baptism other than those of their own church, and require that a person joining that church be baptized again. This is entirely a man-made rule, and the second baptism does nothing in the spiritual sense.

Baptism is a sacrament, which means it was established by Jesus Christ as an outward sign of an inward grace. It is not "magic" under any circumstances.

A person is forgiven all his/her sins at the time of Baptism.

There is such a thing as baptism by desire, whereby a person who has never been baptized, and cannot be, due to his/her circumstances, receives the grace of baptism from God (who is not bound by sacraments).

 

[Brickjectivity]

Theoretically: Baptism as instituted by John the Baptist follows conceptually the baptism used by Elishah the prophet who instructs the gentile Assyrian General Naaman to bathe himself seven times in the Jordan to be cured of leprosy. (2 Kings 5) When a person is baptised to become a Christian they are removing their spiritual leprosy that separates them from the house of faith, but it is a symbolic action and should not be without commitment on their part. Why seven times? Jesus explains this number, that the number of times to forgive the same offense is not literally seven times but many more times than that. (Mat 18:22,Luk 17:4) So in this interpretation the act of forgiving someone else is the true baptism of a Christian which happens not merely seven times (as symbolized in Naaman's washing) but many more times than that. The water itself is symbolic. I'm sure there are more interpretations possible using these same set of scriptures. Its definitely got something to do with Naaman's baptism.

 

[ChristineES]

In our faith, the water baptism symbolizes the "death" of the old life and being born again into a new life with Yeshua. What John The Baptist spoke of was a baptism of Holy Spirit, which would be a spiritual baptism, according to this verse:
Mark 1:7 John also told the people, "Someone more powerful is going to come. And I am not good enough even to stoop down and untie his sandals.
Mar 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit!"

 

[Desert Snake]

I haven't heard this before, so I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the idea of "baptism in the Holy Spirit"?

I would think of baptism as a sacrament performed by people and not by Jesus, and as a symbol of Christian transformation following the same pattern as Christ's death and resurrection. There's plenty that could be said about this, but I think most of the things that should be said don't have anything to do with separating people into buckets of "saved" and "unsaved", which seems to be the motivation behind the sort of "magical ceremony"-esque approach? I would guess most of my disagreement with it really amounts to a different understanding of salvation.

You haven't heard that before? that's surprising, but o.k.

 

[Desert Snake]

Some basic info that may address at least some of your questions:

Jesus does not baptize. He instructed people to baptize. A baptism has its effect as water is either poured on the head of the person being baptized or he/she is immersed in water, and the words that Jesus specified are spoken by the person baptizing – “I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Therefore, only one baptism can be valid, whether a person changes religions or not. However, some Protestants don’t accept the validity of any baptism other than those of their own church, and require that a person joining that church be baptized again. This is entirely a man-made rule, and the second baptism does nothing in the spiritual sense.

Baptism is a sacrament, which means it was established by Jesus Christ as an outward sign of an inward grace. It is not "magic" under any circumstances.

A person is forgiven all his/her sins at the time of Baptism.

There is such a thing as baptism by desire, whereby a person who has never been baptized, and cannot be, due to his/her circumstances, receives the grace of baptism from God (who is not bound by sacraments).

Are you of the opinion that people become Xians at the time of baptism, or have to be baptized to become Xians, or are saved at the time of baptism? Jesus does baptize, I believe, it is just not the church baptism, that is what the thread is about. You did answer your stance on the spiritual baptism, so I think we generally agree, regardless.

 

[Desert Snake]

Some basic info that may address at least some of your questions:

Jesus does not baptize. He instructed people to baptize. A baptism has its effect as water is either poured on the head of the person being baptized or he/she is immersed in water, and the words that Jesus specified are spoken by the person baptizing – “I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Therefore, only one baptism can be valid, whether a person changes religions or not. However, some Protestants don’t accept the validity of any baptism other than those of their own church, and require that a person joining that church be baptized again. This is entirely a man-made rule, and the second baptism does nothing in the spiritual sense.

Baptism is a sacrament, which means it was established by Jesus Christ as an outward sign of an inward grace. It is not "magic" under any circumstances.

Don't you mean John? People are performing the baptism of John, the same type of baptism that Jesus partook in, /in the narrative; It seems that baptism by Jesus is totally different, to me. I do agree that it is symbolic.

A person is forgiven all his/her sins at the time of Baptism.

There is such a thing as baptism by desire, whereby a person who has never been baptized, and cannot be, due to his/her circumstances, receives the grace of baptism from God (who is not bound by sacraments).

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Are you of the opinion that people become Xians at the time of baptism, or have to be baptized to become Xians, or are saved at the time of baptism? Jesus does baptize, I believe, it is just not the church baptism, that is what the thread is about. You did answer your stance on the spiritual baptism, so I think we generally agree, regardless.

Except in infant baptisms, people get baptized after deciding to become Christians. Even in the earliest days of Christianity, people made a declaration of faith before the baptism was performed. The earliest such affirmation of faith known in written form was an earlier and shorter version of the Apostles' Creed.

Yes, they are saved at the time of baptism, but could lose their salvation at some later time if they decide to reject God or if they commit mortal sins for which they do not repent and ask for forgiveness.

Okay, now I think I understand what you mean by Jesus baptizing. A person does the physical baptizing, but Jesus is present and does the most important part. Jesus sanctifies the person being baptized, and brings the Holy Spirit to them. The water and words and the person baptizing cannot do that without Jesus.

Don't you mean John? People are performing the baptism of John, the same type of baptism that Jesus partook in, /in the narrative; It seems that baptism by Jesus is totally different, to me. I do agree that it is symbolic.

In reading the way I wrote that, I can see why it could confuse the point I was trying to make. You are right, John the Baptist was already baptizing with water, having been directed by the Holy Spirit to do that. So baptism was already established. Jesus brought the Holy Spirit into it and elevated the practice of baptism to a sacrament.

And just in case you might be interested, there is a reason why Jesus insisted that he be baptized by John the Baptist. It wasn't just to set an example and it certainly wasn't so that he could be sanctified, because he is God the Son. When Jesus was baptized, the water of the Jordan was sanctified for the purpose of baptism, and all the water of the earth carries this property when used to baptize.