Shadow Link
Active Member
The gap between Islam and Christianity is the importance of Hope.
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Questions About Islam, Catholicism, and Morality
- Thread starter RedDragon94
- Start date
watrewks
New Member
In my experience I think Islam shares more in common in terms of morality with classic Judaism than with Catholicism. Islam accepts the teachings of Christ in terms of morality but Mohammad supersedes anything the Bible says. So I don't think they would have a problem with the golden rule or whatever.
I don't think Islam and Christianity share the same philosophy when it comes to warfare. Just War for Catholics is all about being in a position of defense. It's a response to an aggression by someone else. Islam, however, was spread through conquest and that isn't compatible with just war.
Lastly, I think where Islam and Catholicism differ is that Islam basically teaches you outweigh your good deeds with the bad. Catholics teach that sin is still sin no matter how small and we should always try to live virtuously like Christ.
Actually, this is what the Qur'an says about warfare:
From Surah 2 (Surah al-Baqara):
190Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. 191Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them— this is what such disbelievers deserve— 192but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. 193Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors. 194A sacred month for a sacred month: violation of sanctity [calls for] fair retribution. So if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him as he attacked you, but be mindful of God, and know that He is with those who are mindful of Him.
From Surah 4:
90But as for those who reach people with whom you have a treaty, or who come over to you because their hearts shrink from fighting against you or against their own people, God could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw and do not fight you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way against them. 91You will find others who wish to be safe from you, and from their own people, but whenever they are back in a situation where they are tempted [to fight you], they succumb to it. So if they neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, seize and kill them wherever you encounter them: We give you clear authority against such people. . . 93If anyone kills a believer deliberately, the punishment for him is Hell, and there he will remain: God is angry with him, and rejects him, and has prepared a tremendous torment for him. 94So, you who believe, be careful when you go to fight in God’s way, and do not say to someone who offers you a greeting of peace, ‘You are not a believer,’ c out of desire for the chance gains of this life— God has plenty of gains for you. You yourself were in the same position [once], but God was gracious to you, so be careful: God is fully aware of what you do.
From Surah 8:
55The worst creatures in the sight of God are those who reject Him and will not believe; 56who, whenever you [Prophet] make a treaty with them, break it, for they have no fear of God. 57If you meet them in battle, make a fearsome example of them to those who come after them, so that they may take heed. 58And if you learn of treachery on the part of any people, throw their treaty back at them, for God does not love the treacherous. 59The disbelievers should not think they have won; they cannot escape. 60Prepare whatever forces you [believers] can muster, including warhorses, so that you frighten off God’s enemies and yours, and warn others unknown to you but known to God. Whatever you give in God’s cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. 61But if they incline towards peace, you [Prophet] must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
And then, Surah 9:
4As for those idolaters who have honoured the treaty you [believers] made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. God loves those who are mindful of Him. 5When the [four] forbidden months are over, wherever you encounter the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they repent, maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go on their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful. 6If any one of the idolaters should seek your protection [Prophet], grant it to him so that he may hear the word of God, then take him to a place safe for him, for they are people who do not know.
In other words, Muslims are only to wage war when they are being directly persecuted and are unable to live as Muslims. They are only to fight those who fight against them, and if they have a treaty with anyone, they are not to violate it at all. If their enemies break that treaty, then they have grounds to fight. But if no one fights against them, they are forbidden from being the aggressor. And even in the middle of battle, if someone surrenders, you escort them outside the battle and let them go free. This is exactly like Augustine's jus ad bellum, where Catholics are only allowed to fight against unjust attackers, and cannot exceed the minimum force necessary to stop the attack.
Muslims also teach that we should always try to live virtuously, but at the same time Islam admits that we still all sin. So we should minimize our sins as much as possible and do as much good as possible. This is the same as Catholicism. We try to live virtuously like Christ, but as St. Paul says, "There is no one who lives and who does not sin."
watrewks
New Member
So here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about just war:
“The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the ‘just war’ doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good” (CCC 2309).
I think there is some stuff that overlaps, however, if Muhammad spread Islam through conquest, then that is just for Muslims to do. For Christians, we spread the faith through evangelization and being virtuous towards all people. Even in cases where we are persecuted we are not allowed to go to war with the people. I think that's the major difference in what you put forth. To Islam it seems like you're allowed to hurt people because they've been bad to you and with Christianity it's replacing evil with love, hence the love your enemies.
Secondly, I think the doctrine of salvation is different to Muslims and Christians. It's not that they don't believe in being virtuous it's that their good deeds outweigh the bad. For Christians, forgiveness of sins is essential, along with contrition and resolve to live virtuously and do the will of God. We teach that nothing unclean can enter heaven, so one has to become like Christ in all things.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
Mountaineer2003
New Member
I have just begun reading about some of the basic tenets of Islam; including a book written by Reza Aslan titled "No god but God." It is a fascinating read that goes into the origins and development of Islam throughout history. I'm not sure that many Christians realize the tensions and disagreements even among different Muslim communities.
As a Christian who accepts the claims that Jesus made about himself in the Scripture, I would appreciate hearing how a Muslim understands the gospel message that Christ died for sin and was raised according to the Scripture.
As a Christian who accepts the claims that Jesus made about himself in the Scripture, I would appreciate hearing how a Muslim understands the gospel message that Christ died for sin and was raised according to the Scripture.
MohammadPali
Active Member
Our problem is not with jesus peace be upon, him. Its mostly with paul. We don't believe jesus died either hes the messiah. And my sin and your sin can't be transferred to anyone else or any other being. Your sin is between you and god. If you repent and are sincere god can forgive you.
Once there was a man, he kept sinning, but he would constantly ask god for forgiveness, and god forgave him. He then makes a even bigger sin, he begs god for forgiveness, god forgave him again. He does a even bigger sin than the last 2 combined, and god said to his angels, look at this, my slave keeps sinning, and yet he still comes back to me, and the angels said, but hes going to keep sinning ? whats the point oh lord ? God said because he keeps coming back to ME, and remembering ME, and I will keep forgiving him, because he only remembers me, and nothing else. And from now on, every sin he does, I forgive it past and present.
God is that easy to forgive. Thats how easy it is, for someone who sins to become someone who was forgiven by god.
So for us, we don't believe jesus even had a sin, he wasn't born like a regular human, he was born a miraculous birth, he wasn't even touched by sin. He is the word of god, not someone who extracted everyones sin. hes and the messiah and will return.
Mountaineer2003
New Member
Thank you for your response. I think we can all resonate with feelings of frustration as a result of not being able to overcome sin for good in and of our own strength.
We cannot escape or overcome sin because it is a part of our nature. Our greatest problem lies inside of each and everyone of us. Paul addresses this in Romans 1 when he declared that mankind "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." This affront to God is not a new phenomenon in Paul's day, but goes back to the Old Testament ("but my people have exchanged their glorious God for that which does not profit" - Jeremiah 2) and all the way back to Genesis. Rather than be totally satisfied in a full dependency on God, mankind essentially chose to claim the knowledge of good and evil for himself.
Paul reveals the purpose of the Law in Romans 5. God graciously gave the Law to his people to help reveal sin for what it is: a trespass against God. I'm guilty as charged. But the feelings of guilt, shame, and condemnation that result when comparing my sin to God's perfect holiness and righteousness usually lead to more problems. I try to either justify my actions or come up with some type of works-based law-keeping based on my own morals to try and get back in God's good graces. In reality, though, our own righteousness is like filthy rags, according to Scripture.
But where sin runs deep, God's grace goes even deeper. The Psalms refers to God as gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in love. At the same time, He is holy and will eventually judge everyone according to their works. How can we ever be certain that we did enough good things in our lives to outweigh the bad, that we prayed enough, that we helped enough people in need, that we asked for forgiveness with the right heart motivation, etc.?
You mentioned in your post that "God is that easy to forgive", which made me think of the passage in 2 Chronicles 7:14: "if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." But Scripture shows that the people of God in fact did not do these things, and it was God who initiated a heart change among Israel, usually through some sort of judgment. This is what makes the gospel so incredibly powerful. The Word became flesh and live among men. Jesus perfectly obeyed the law because he was fully God. He who knew no sin, became sin and absorbed the full force of God's wrath that we deserve. At the same time, he was fully human; tempted just as the first man in the garden, but surrendering to the will of the Father.
It's unfortunate that over time, many religious scholars have separated the Jesus of history from the Christ of faith. The Christian faith rests on a bodily resurrection. Paul, who encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, tells the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians 15 that if "Christ has not been raised, (their) faith is in vain, and they are still in their sins." Jesus had to be God to be able to save, and had to be human to stand in our place. The Christian's hope is in the cross and resurrection of Christ. Paul's letters affirm the gospel message; and the radical transformation in his life can only be credited to a powerful encounter with the risen Christ.
We cannot escape or overcome sin because it is a part of our nature. Our greatest problem lies inside of each and everyone of us. Paul addresses this in Romans 1 when he declared that mankind "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." This affront to God is not a new phenomenon in Paul's day, but goes back to the Old Testament ("but my people have exchanged their glorious God for that which does not profit" - Jeremiah 2) and all the way back to Genesis. Rather than be totally satisfied in a full dependency on God, mankind essentially chose to claim the knowledge of good and evil for himself.
Paul reveals the purpose of the Law in Romans 5. God graciously gave the Law to his people to help reveal sin for what it is: a trespass against God. I'm guilty as charged. But the feelings of guilt, shame, and condemnation that result when comparing my sin to God's perfect holiness and righteousness usually lead to more problems. I try to either justify my actions or come up with some type of works-based law-keeping based on my own morals to try and get back in God's good graces. In reality, though, our own righteousness is like filthy rags, according to Scripture.
But where sin runs deep, God's grace goes even deeper. The Psalms refers to God as gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in love. At the same time, He is holy and will eventually judge everyone according to their works. How can we ever be certain that we did enough good things in our lives to outweigh the bad, that we prayed enough, that we helped enough people in need, that we asked for forgiveness with the right heart motivation, etc.?
You mentioned in your post that "God is that easy to forgive", which made me think of the passage in 2 Chronicles 7:14: "if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." But Scripture shows that the people of God in fact did not do these things, and it was God who initiated a heart change among Israel, usually through some sort of judgment. This is what makes the gospel so incredibly powerful. The Word became flesh and live among men. Jesus perfectly obeyed the law because he was fully God. He who knew no sin, became sin and absorbed the full force of God's wrath that we deserve. At the same time, he was fully human; tempted just as the first man in the garden, but surrendering to the will of the Father.
It's unfortunate that over time, many religious scholars have separated the Jesus of history from the Christ of faith. The Christian faith rests on a bodily resurrection. Paul, who encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, tells the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians 15 that if "Christ has not been raised, (their) faith is in vain, and they are still in their sins." Jesus had to be God to be able to save, and had to be human to stand in our place. The Christian's hope is in the cross and resurrection of Christ. Paul's letters affirm the gospel message; and the radical transformation in his life can only be credited to a powerful encounter with the risen Christ.
MohammadPali
Active Member
Judgement came down hard on the hebrews, and the jewish people in general. In Ezekiel you notice that the vision he had of what was really going on at the temple, the evils, the idol worship. The rituals they where doing where disgusting, they didn't count on god, they counted on the nations around them, and were influenced by them way too much. And judgement came, and it came down on them hard, even when they reached babylon they where in total shock. How could this happen ? And they didn't even ask for forgiveness ? There was no real mourning here. What was going on ?
We believe that jesus the messiah peace be upon him rose, but didn't die. He will return in syria.
islam is the perfected version of other religion.
we have faith in 124000 prophets who sent by God for salvation of mankind.
they are very common view points between islam and previous religions.
monotheism, day of judgement, prophethood, as principles and also morality, compassion, kindness, generosity, mercy, charity, etc in behaviours.
the most trustworthy website which i found for study about islam is:
www.al-islam.org
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would suggest that no religion is "perfect" because people and their interpretations and their beliefs are not "perfect".
Mountaineer2003
New Member
What largely separates Christianity from other religious faiths is Jesus Christ. While Christ's death, burial, and bodily resurrection are the content of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:3-5), the good news is closely connected with the theme of God's rule as king over all, i.e. his kingdom. Jesus boldly and clearly makes claims about himself throughout the Gospels; "I and the Father are one", "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me", etc.
Many of the moral behaviors that are encouraged in other religions are also promoted throughout Scripture. However, the reality is we have a natural disposition against them. Even many of the "good" things we do aren't always motivated by the right reasons. The Christian church is far from perfect. However, Christians do serve a perfect Savior, who demonstrated all of the fruits of the Spirit to perfection.
Many of the moral behaviors that are encouraged in other religions are also promoted throughout Scripture. However, the reality is we have a natural disposition against them. Even many of the "good" things we do aren't always motivated by the right reasons. The Christian church is far from perfect. However, Christians do serve a perfect Savior, who demonstrated all of the fruits of the Spirit to perfection.
may i sincerely ask that read this book?
we are not perfect, but God sent his choosen servants who are infallible for our guidance and salvation!
i read this book and cryed many times out of joy!
Ahl al-Bayt, The Celestial Beings on the Earth
God bless you!
yes. there is no original sin in islam.
we believe that people are born with pure nature that want God, want perfection and want goodness.
see chapter 30 verse 30 of the holy Quran which the all-merciful God says:
Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know--
hello.
you told that
To Islam it seems like you're allowed to hurt people because they've been bad to you and with Christianity it's replacing evil with love, hence the love your enemies.
but God the all-merciful says in the holy Quran:
وَلَا تَسْتَوِي الْحَسَنَةُ وَلَا السَّيِّئَةُ ادْفَعْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ فَإِذَا الَّذِي بَيْنَكَ وَبَيْنَهُ عَدَاوَةٌ كَأَنَّهُ وَلِيٌّ حَمِيمٌ ﴿chapter 41 verse ۳۴﴾
Virtue and evil are not equal. If you replace evil habits by virtuous ones, you will certainly find that your enemies will become your intimate friends.
and in verse 7 of chapter 60 of the holy Quran we read:
عَسَى اللَّهُ أَنْ يَجْعَلَ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَ الَّذِينَ عَادَيْتُمْ مِنْهُمْ مَوَدَّةً وَاللَّهُ قَدِيرٌ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ ﴿
It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
you told that
To Islam it seems like you're allowed to hurt people because they've been bad to you and with Christianity it's replacing evil with love, hence the love your enemies.
but God the all-merciful says in the holy Quran:
وَلَا تَسْتَوِي الْحَسَنَةُ وَلَا السَّيِّئَةُ ادْفَعْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ فَإِذَا الَّذِي بَيْنَكَ وَبَيْنَهُ عَدَاوَةٌ كَأَنَّهُ وَلِيٌّ حَمِيمٌ ﴿chapter 41 verse ۳۴﴾
Virtue and evil are not equal. If you replace evil habits by virtuous ones, you will certainly find that your enemies will become your intimate friends.
and in verse 7 of chapter 60 of the holy Quran we read:
عَسَى اللَّهُ أَنْ يَجْعَلَ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَ الَّذِينَ عَادَيْتُمْ مِنْهُمْ مَوَدَّةً وَاللَّهُ قَدِيرٌ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ ﴿
It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Behold: fresh off the baking tray,
Muhammad Tawheed & Abdul Hamid speak with Colin, an Amish Catholic Christian. They discuss theology, morality and virtue and more at London's Speakers' Corner, Hyde Park! Filmed 29th October 2017 by Dawah Digital.
Just watched this, and loved it!!! And it's totally on point with your OP question! enjoy friend!