firedragon
Veteran Member
I have no guesses brother. Maybe one day.
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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan
- Start date
I have no guesses brother. Maybe one day.
I don't believe Dhul Qarnain is Alexander but here is an article about some of this stuff and an excerpt, but can you somehow add to the wikipedia pages on this the stuff about the "Two Seasons". See, the thing about it, is that these Syriac Christian people were using a language related to Arabic, and were using terminology that was referring to "Two Horned" as a memory of their time under the rule of Seleucus I Nicator's Dynasty the Seleucid Dynasty/Empire. There are other guesses people make too (nobody mentions Seleucus but if one explores the history of the region, the legels of Seleucus and the development and regions of development of the Alexander Romance and its spread, Seleucus becomes a major contender for the true identity behind many of the legends and stories of the region attributed to Alexander instead). The Syriac writers kept making references to "Two Horns" using terms like Dhul Qarnain (just like the Qur'an says ROM for Rome), and so that was the only character that I know of that goes by this name or a similar name who also has this story associated with them, they were using this terminology for a long while, and then Moses also was at times associated with two horns, which were the Horns depicted as light emitting from his head which turn into other sorts of horns in various pieces of art. The horns were a big thing in Semitic thinking and beliefs and throughout the regions and across multiple religions.
"
The version recorded in Syriac is of particular importance because it was current in the Middle East during the time of the Quran's writing and is regarded as being closely related to the literary and linguistic origins of the story of Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran. The Syriac legend, as it has survived, consists of five distinct manuscripts, including a Syriac Christian religious legend concerning Alexander and a sermon about Alexander ascribed to the Syriac poet-theologian Jacob of Serugh (451–521 AD, also called Mar Jacob), which according to Reinink was composed around 629–636.[20] The Syriac Christian legend concentrates on Alexander's journey to the end of the World, where he constructs the Gates of Alexander to enclose the evil nations of Gog and Magog, while the sermon describes his journey to the Land of Darkness to discover the Water of Life (Fountain of Youth). These legends concerning Alexander are remarkably similar to the story of Dhul-Qarnayn found in the Quran.[21]
One of the five Syriac manuscripts, dated to the 18th century, has a version of the Syriac legend that has been generally dated to between 629 AD and 636 AD. There is evidence in the legend of "ex eventu knowledge of the Khazar invasion of Armenia in A.D. 629,"[22][23] which suggests that the legend must have been burdened with additions by a redactor sometime around 629 AD. The legend appears to have been composed as propaganda in support of Emperor Heraclius (575–641 AD) shortly after he defeated the Persians in the Byzantine-Sassanid War of 602–628. It is notable that this manuscript fails to mention the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem in 636 AD by Muhammad's (570–632 AD) successor, Caliph Umar (590–644 AD). This fact means that the legend might have been recorded before the "cataclysmic event"` that was the Muslim conquest of Syria and the resulting surrender of Jerusalem in November 636 AD. That the Byzantine–Arab Wars would have been referenced in the legend, had it been written after 636 AD, is supported by the fact that in 692 AD a Syriac Christian adaption of the Alexander romance called the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius was indeed written as a response to the Muslim invasions and was falsely attributed to St Methodius (?–311 AD); this Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius equated the evil nations of Gog and Magog with the Muslim invaders and shaped the eschatological imagination of Christendom for centuries.[21]
The manuscripts also contain evidence of lost texts. For example, there is some evidence of a lost pre-Islamic Arabic version of the translation that is thought to have been an intermediary between the Syriac Christian and the Ethiopic Christian translations.[24] There is also evidence that the Syriac translation was not directly based on the Greek recensions but was based on a lost Pahlavi (Middle Persian) intermediary.[16]
One scholar (Kevin van Bladel)[25] who finds striking similarities between the Quranic verses 18:83-102 and the Syriac legend in support of Emperor Heraclius, dates the work to 629-630 AD or before Muhammad's death, not 629-636 AD.[26] The Syriac legend matches many details in the five parts of the verses (Alexander being the two horned one, journey to edge of the world, punishment of evil doers, Gog and Magog, etc.) and also "makes some sense of the cryptic Qur'anic story" being 21 pages (in one edition)[26] not 20 verses. (The sun sets in a fetid poisonous ocean—not spring—surrounding the earth, Gog and Magog are Huns, etc.) Van Bladel finds it more plausible that the Syriac legend is the source of the Quranic verses than vice versa, as the Syriac legend was written before the Arab conquests when the Hijazi Muslim community was still remote from and little known to the Mesopotamian site of the legend's creation, whereas Arabs worked as troops and scouts for during the Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628 and could have been exposed to the legend.[27]"
Hypotheses about the identity of Dhu al-Qarnayn - Wikipedia
So, even "Two Seasons" is fine with me, but I'd like to know if you have any different guesses for who this apparently well-known character being referred to and the events being referred to, are referring to?
Oh, I posted the next comment before reading this one, ok, no guesses, so you can ignore my asking for guesses there in the last post!
firedragon
Veteran Member
I know that Syriac is similar to Arabic, but I am not knowledgeable in the language. There was a man called Noldeke who interpreted the Quran based on the Syriac etymologies. Then there were many others who followed suit. His work was phenomenal in volume but even his university rejected his work ultimately as not worthy of their recognition due to the backward inference. So most of the modern scholarship stems from this. Arabic is a sister language, but that doesnt mean the etymologies have to go to another language.
It is true that many in the past inferred Two Horns upon Dhul Qarnain but that is inference based on the foundation that it was Alexander the Great. Alexander was a man who was practically divinised in the Romances. That was a time of romances and Said Reynolds himself speaks of them extensively. Do you understand brother? Sometimes we infer things upon a language with external foundations and that's the reason Alexander came into play. But what you should see is if you take all of these parallels into account there were roots in some other source that were romanticised. Same with the epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible where many people have said the roots of the Biblical narratives come from the Gilgamesh epic. But it is also possible that both have another source. A Chinese whispers type of source if that makes sense to you. I would rather go to the language of the Quran.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
That looks rather vague to me compared to what Shoghi Effendi quoted the Bab to be saying. This means, obviously, that you believe Shoghi Effendi is lying.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We do not even need what the Bab promised in order to know who Baha'u'llah was, all we need is the Bible...
William Sears, Thief in the Night
Even if I wanted to drop out of the Baha'i Faith, and I have felt this way because this is so much work (my lower nature
), there is NO WAY I could ever deny all the evidence that proves who Baha'u'llah was, and in essence turning away from Baha'u'llah is akin to turning away from God, and I cannot do that since I fear God and I also know it would not be to my benefit to turn away from God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yeah right Duane, and the Baha'i Faith is all a big conspiracy... Baha'u'llah and Addu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi did all that for themselves, not for God, and they got so much for themselves for sacrificing their entire lives for this Cause.
And what about everyone else who sacrificed everything, the martyrs?
XCI: Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth…
Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth of this Revelation is this, that in every age and Dispensation, whenever the invisible Essence was revealed in the person of His Manifestation, certain souls, obscure and detached from all worldly entanglements, would seek illumination from the Sun of Prophethood and Moon of Divine guidance, and would attain unto the Divine Presence. For this reason, the divines of the age and those possessed of wealth, would scorn and scoff at these people. Even as He hath revealed concerning them that erred: “Then said the chiefs of His people who believed not, ‘We see in Thee but a man like ourselves; and we see not any who have followed Thee except our meanest ones of hasty judgment, nor see we any excellence in you above ourselves: nay, we deem you liars.’” They caviled at those holy Manifestations, and protested saying: “None hath followed you except the abject amongst us, those who are worthy of no attention.” Their aim was to show that no one amongst the learned, the wealthy, and the renowned believed in them. By this and similar proofs they sought to demonstrate the falsity of Him that speaketh naught but the truth.
In this most resplendent Dispensation, however, this most mighty Sovereignty, a number of illumined divines, of men of consummate learning, of doctors of mature wisdom, have attained unto His Court, drunk the cup of His divine Presence, and been invested with the honor of His most excellent favor. They have renounced, for the sake of the Beloved, the world and all that is therein….
All these were guided by the light of the Sun of Divine Revelation, confessed and acknowledged His truth. Such was their faith, that most of them renounced their substance and kindred, and cleaved to the good pleasure of the All-Glorious. They laid down their lives for their Well-Beloved, and surrendered their all in His path. Their breasts were made targets for the darts of the enemy, and their heads adorned the spears of the infidel. No land remained which did not drink the blood of these embodiments of detachment, and no sword that did not bruise their necks. Their deeds, alone, testify to the truth of their words. Doth not the testimony of these holy souls, who have so gloriously risen to offer up their lives for their Beloved that the whole world marveled at the manner of their sacrifice, suffice the people of this day? Is it not sufficient witness against the faithlessness of those who for a trifle betrayed their faith, who bartered away immortality for that which perisheth, who gave up the Kawthar of the Divine Presence for salty springs, and whose one aim in life is to usurp the property of others? Even as thou dost witness how all of them have busied themselves with the vanities of the world, and have strayed far from Him Who is the Lord, the Most High.
Be fair: Is the testimony of those acceptable and worthy of attention whose deeds agree with their words, whose outward behavior conforms with their inner life? The mind is bewildered at their deeds, and the soul marveleth at their fortitude and bodily endurance. Or is the testimony of these faithless souls who breathe naught but the breath of selfish desire, and who lie imprisoned in the cage of their idle fancies, acceptable? Like the bats of darkness, they lift not their heads from their couch except to pursue the transient things of the world, and find no rest by night except as they labor to advance the aims of their sordid life. Immersed in their selfish schemes, they are oblivious of the Divine decree. In the daytime they strive with all their soul after worldly benefits, and in the night season their sole occupation is to gratify their carnal desires. By what law or standard could men be justified in cleaving to the denials of such petty-minded souls and in ignoring the faith of them that have renounced, for the sake of the good pleasure of God, their life and substance, their fame and renown, their reputation and honor?…
With what love, what devotion, what exultation and holy rapture, they sacrificed their lives in the path of the All-Glorious! To the truth of this all witness. And yet, how can they belittle this Revelation? Hath any age witnessed such momentous happenings? If these companions be not the true strivers after God, who else could be called by this name? Have these companions been seekers after power or glory? Have they ever yearned for riches? Have they cherished any desire except the good pleasure of God? If these companions, with all their marvelous testimonies and wondrous works, be false, who then is worthy to claim for himself the truth? I swear by God! Their very deeds are a sufficient testimony, and an irrefutable proof unto all the peoples of the earth, were men to ponder in their hearts the mysteries of Divine Revelation. “And they who act unjustly shall soon know what lot awaiteth them!”…
Consider these martyrs of unquestionable sincerity, to whose truthfulness testifieth the explicit text of the Book, and all of whom, as thou hast witnessed, have sacrificed their life, their substance, their wives, their children, their all, and ascended unto the loftiest chambers of Paradise. Is it fair to reject the testimony of these detached and exalted beings to the truth of this pre-eminent and Glorious Revelation, and to regard as acceptable the denunciations which have been uttered against this resplendent Light by this faithless people, who for gold have forsaken their faith, and who for the sake of leadership have repudiated Him Who is the First Leader of all mankind? This, although their character is now revealed unto all people who have recognized them as those who will in no wise relinquish one jot or one tittle of their temporal authority for the sake of God’s holy Faith, how much less their life, their substance, and the like.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 179-183
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know where Tony said that but that is neither here nor there. It would be circular reasoning if anyone believed that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God "because He said so" and it would also be utterly foolish to believe Him "because He said so" because anyone can claim to be a Messenger of God. But what is their evidence? There is evidence that supports Baha'u'llah's claim.
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
No, you believe that YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the Bab wrote shows that Baha'u'llah is incorrect.
Christians also believe that THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible shows that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet. However, my interpretation of the Bible shows something different, and the fact that all the Bible prophecies were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah shows that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I could not refute all that evidence if I tried. That is the only reason I am a Baha'i. I do not even like religion and I ran away from God and religion for most of my life. Then when I came back, people started asking me about the evidence on various forums. I always believed that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, but now I not only believe, I know, because all those people asked me about the evidence. So I have all those people to thank for my absolute certitude.
We do not even need what the Bab promised in order to know who Baha'u'llah was, all we need is the Bible...
William Sears, Thief in the Night
Even if I wanted to drop out of the Baha'i Faith, and I have felt this way because this is so much work (my lower nature
That the Bab's Message had a Span on 19 years, in itself has great spiritual significance, to which is mostly a mystery to me.
There were 19 letters of the living and I note that this is also mentioned often in the Bayan.
As we donot have an Authorised full translation, we can only consider at this time there is more pressing issues.
It also to me would not matter. It would not alter any person's views, if they already have a mindset.
I agree with you, both the Bab's and Baha'u'llah Messages stand uopn their own foundations, but I like what I found in the Bayan about all the Messages. I will read more.
BAB 15 In explanation of the Book, that the Book is true.
"The substance of this gate is that the word “book” refers to that which is made manifest from the Point of Truth, for as regards the eternal essence, from all eternity, it experiences no change or modification. Perchance the Book of the Point of the Bayán does indeed demonstrate God, for only God has the ability (to produce a similar book). From one word, to the end. In short, all that is produced by the Point of Truth is called “the Book.” All that He Whom God shall make manifest shall write of his own handwriting is a book written by the Hand of God, for he was and is relative to God, and his Book is the Truth...... It is the same with the Qur'an. If today they think they are joyful, it (their statement) has no truth, for, in truth, they think they act for God, and they think they are joyful to god, but in
reality, they act for other than God. They have therefore remained possessed by the same idle imaginings as the people of the Gospel; for the Mirror of God has risen in another Paradise. Therefore, all the jewels have left (the previous Paradise), except for him who knows God only and grows in Him, who knows what He has revealed in His Book and believes in Him. Thus, the people of Paradise are delighted with this Paradise, and until the beginning of the Manifestation of He Whom God shall make manifest — I swear by the eternal essence of God! — no Paradise is higher than faith in it and obedience to it. And (at the Day of Judgment) all the jewels will leave the People of the Bayán.... "
It is a great Work.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is claims do not rely on the Bab. Do you really think and Jews or Christian gives a twit about the Bab? They do not even recognize the Bab as anyone. The Bab only has significance to Muslims because He claimed to be the promised Mahdi.
When Baha'u'llah makes His claim He refers to the Bible, not to the Writings of the Bab. He claimed to be the return of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246
“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18
“Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 91
“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85
“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19
“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92
Go ahead and try to refute all the Bible prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.
William Sears, Thief in the Night
If you can do that, then I will take my toys and go home because I do not want to believe in a false prophet.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I knew a guy on a Baha'i forum who was a Muslim, became a Baha'i and then dropped out and became a Muslim again, but then He ended up being a Baha'i and He is still a Baha'i.
From what I read the last couple of days from the Bayan, it appears that all the Messages given By God are Words from the same Book.
So what I see is that the Jewels of the Old Testament were found again in the Gospels, then the Jewels of the Gospel found in the Quran, then Quran to the writings of the Bab and from the Bab to Baha'u'llah.
As such, it then becomes logical the Message of the Bab is an intrinsic step in recognising Baha'u'llah, it is a step that cannot be omitted, as we can not omit any Messenger if we want to understand what Baha'u'llah has offered.
I am thus considering no one can find peace of spirit without embracing the Word as a whole, embracing all the Messengers.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And what is the harm in that? One only has to give up believing only they are right.
And some people prefer a smorgasbord to a burger and fries.
Sometimes I prefer a burger and fries though, depends upon the mood I am in.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Yes 19 years is a very sacred number in the Bayan, that's not disputed.
The Bab says multiple times in the Persian Bayan that the dispensation of the Bayan would last between 1511 and 2001 years.
A dispensation needs a lot of time to mature, 9 years is not time for a dispensation to mature. 9 years leaves the dispensation in a state of obscurity, this is very much a fact with what the Baha'i cult has done to the Bayani/Babi religion. You take credit for the Bab but don't give him and his dispensation any say or attention. The Bab is merely a footnote in your cult, Subh-i-Azal is turned into the bad guy. This is utterly ridiculous.
I'll repeat it again: 20 years is not enough time for a dispensation to mature.
20 years is not even enough time for a human being to mature
How the heck do you expect the Babi/Bayani dispensation to mature when they were still having to practice Taqiya in Iran, as they still do to this day.
The Baha'i cult is not an answer to the Babi/Bayani dispensation, it's rather a clear attempt to subdue and undermine it. Baha'u'llah himself doesn't even understand the Babi/Bayani religion/doctrine/system very well either.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Quote it.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Let alone the fact that The Bab says that the Babi/Bayani dispensation will become a worldwide religion by the time He Whom God Shall Make Manifest arrives. That absolutely did not happen as of yet.
The Babi/Bayani dispensation remains an obscure religious tradition in Iran for the most part (there are Babis/Bayanis around the world of course, but most of them are in Iran).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What did he do that was good? If any of the accounts in Baha'i history are correct, he was a bad guy.
Can you disprove that?
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
1. Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
2. Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
3. Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
We're going in circles
(well, you Baha'i's are, that is). It's mentioned in other texts of The Bab as well.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Quote the Bab saying that. Otherwise it is just YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the Bab said, what you want to believe. I want to believe what is true, whatever that is, how about you?