Questions for Muslims

[Raahim]

1) Islam means submission. It's a state a person gets when they are doing acts which are in accordance with God's will. Anyone can be considered a Muslim in God's eyes if their actions are in accordance with God's will, even an atheist. Islam is what will bring a person to heaven, not anything else. If a Christian, Jew, Hindu, or atheist ends up in heaven, it's not because of their own religious beliefs, but it is because their actions were approved by God in their life on earth, and God considered them Muslims. Heaven is the ultimate benefit for humans, so everything below that follows suit.

2) You mean should the Qur'an take blame. And the answer is no. The Qur'an clearly rejects murder for innocents The blame should always lie on the person(s) doing the crimes.

Now this is what most of the people don't understand! Very well said brother.
Inshallah your knowledge of Quran will become even greater.

 

[OurCreed]

Now this is what most of the people don't understand! Very well said brother.
Inshallah your knowledge of Quran will become even greater.

Jazak'Allah, may we all benefit from God's wisdom and His teachings.

 

[paarsurrey]

a) If Islam is God's perfected religion and God sent Jesus as a mere messenger, why is Christianity the world's dominant religion and has been nearly since its inception? Why would Allah do that?

[1]
[a] Some times one understand from one's own standpoint better, please, read the above as:

If religion of Zoroaster was truthful; why viz a viz Christianity, Zoroastrianism has so few followers?
​

Regards

 

[OurCreed]

[1]
[a] Some times one understand from one's own standpoint better, please, read the above as:

If religion of Zoroaster was truthful; why viz a viz Christianity it has so few followers?
​

Regards

I think you mean why Christianity as more followers.

 

[icehorse]

Yes I do and a lot, trouble is people won't accept it for numerous reasons. Mostly because of greed and egoism.

Okay. So are you saying that we should say Islam provides benefits, but that Islam cannot be blamed for problems?

 

[icehorse]

1) Islam means submission. It's a state a person gets when they are doing acts which are in accordance with God's will. Anyone can be considered a Muslim in God's eyes if their actions are in accordance with God's will, even an atheist. Islam is what will bring a person to heaven, not anything else. If a Christian, Jew, Hindu, or atheist ends up in heaven, it's not because of their own religious beliefs, but it is because their actions were approved by God in their life on earth, and God considered them Muslims. Heaven is the ultimate benefit for humans, so everything below that follows suit.

2) You mean should the Qur'an take blame. And the answer is no. The Qur'an clearly rejects murder for innocents The blame should always lie on the person(s) doing the crimes.

Now I think you're the one dodging questions

 

[Raahim]

Okay. So are you saying that we should say Islam provides benefits, but that Islam cannot be blamed for problems?

When you calculate something wrong, do you blame mathematics or yourself?

 

[OurCreed]

Now I think you're the one dodging questions

No, I am answering your questions and correcting your perception at the same time. One cannot simply answer a question that is flawed in nature.

 

[paarsurrey]

I think you mean why Christianity as more followers.

I have revised the post.
Thanks and regards

 

[icehorse]

No, I am answering your questions and correcting your perception at the same time. One cannot simply answer a question that is flawed in nature.

Please don't assume that your way of looking at this complex situation is the only correct way to look at it. I have the bulk of humanity on my side of this discussion

 

[icehorse]

When you calculate something wrong, do you blame mathematics or yourself?

The rules of mathematics are universally agreed upon. If you can show me the interpretation of Islam that is universally agreed upon, then you might have a point. But given that not even devout Muslims can agree on Islam, your response does not answer the question.

You and OurCreed both seem to want to eat your cake and have it too. You want to give Islam credit for good results, but you do not want blame Islam for bad results. Why would a non-believer accept such a one-sided, unbalanced argument?

What if I were to say that when atheists do great things, we need to give the credit to atheism, but when atheists do bad things, we must find some other place to put the blame? Does that sound logical to you?

 

[OurCreed]

Please don't assume that your way of looking at this complex situation is the only correct way to look at it. I have the bulk of humanity on my side of this discussion

I will repeat myself again. Your questions are flawed, so one cannot fundamentally answer them except by correction first. You obviously aren't that educated on Islam, nor the Qur'an, and neither is the bulk of humanity.

 

[icehorse]

I will repeat myself again. Your questions are flawed, so one cannot fundamentally answer them except by correction first. You obviously aren't that educated on Islam, nor the Qur'an, and neither is the bulk of humanity.

I beg to differ.

But okay, for the sake of discussion, in what way(s) are my questions flawed?

 

[OurCreed]

I beg to differ.

But okay, for the sake of discussion, in what way(s) are my questions flawed?

You're asking about Islam without knowing what Islam actually is.

 

[icehorse]

You're asking about Islam without knowing what Islam actually is.

Well I think I have a pretty good sense, but please, enlighten me...

 

[firedragon]

Wait, just a few posts ago OurCreed (a Muslim), said this:



I think you guys should sort this out and let us know whether the book is clear and straightforward, or whether you have to study it and go deep.

You havent got it.

There are clear verses. Or rather let me say fully clear.

e.g.
2:285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers: “We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;” and they said: “We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny.”

Muthasabih means similar, look alike, made to appear. It may on the face of it, depending on your mindset appear to support your crooked interpretation if you like. That is if you cherry pick, which you do always Ice.

e.g.

It is because of this that we have decreed for the Children of Israel:“Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And who ever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people. ”Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of the mare, after this,still corrupting on the Earth. –Quran 5:32

Great teaching. No killing except for murder. Thus, no rapist, no drug lord, no thief will be given death sentence. And people should be looking out to make sure that no one is killed in vain. Also we must look out to save innocent people.

Well hell, then there is a statement "or who has not committed corruption in the land". Why especially mention that? This can be interpreted as many things. e.g. America is committing corruption in the land, so kill the Americans. A fool will interpret it that way on purpose, in order to propagate an ideology inherited or invented externally with another purpose in mind. Even use it to slander Islam.

The Quran gives numerous examples of who is "committing corruption in the land". That is again murder or mass murder.


And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land,and they were not reforming.They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night,and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful”–Quran

27:48-49

And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice.

–Quran 27:50

People who swear by God and attack people. Murder in the name of God.

Cheers.

 

[Raahim]

The rules of mathematics are universally agreed upon. If you can show me the interpretation of Islam that is universally agreed upon, then you might have a point. But given that not even devout Muslims can agree on Islam, your response does not answer the question.

You and OurCreed both seem to want to eat your cake and have it too. You want to give Islam credit for good results, but you do not want blame Islam for bad results. Why would a non-believer accept such a one-sided, unbalanced argument?

What if I were to say that when atheists do great things, we need to give the credit to atheism, but when atheists do bad things, we must find some other place to put the blame? Does that sound logical to you?

You missed the point on what I wanted to say, it's not about the rules but where the issue is - issue is not in mathematics but in humans for making error.
Do you blame physics for nuclear bombs or the person that made it and used it? You don't shout on streets that physicist or physics are to blame, the fault is on the individual or group which happened to be physicists but you can't put every single one of them into the same bin because there are many more physicists that are doing something beneficial for mankind.

People are completely blind on Muslims who fight terrorist organizations, help in charity, help in everyday situations and so on. People don't give them in public credit because that has nothing to do with Islam from their view but when terrorists do something then there the media stands screaming how Islam is terrible, violent and so on. When Muslims do good things it's completely ignored because who cares, but when terrorists (who don't follow Islam at all) do something bad all of the Muslims are to blame and their religion. Does that sound logical to you?

 

[Faronator]

You missed the point on what I wanted to say, it's not about the rules but where the issue is - issue is not in mathematics but in humans for making error.
Do you blame physics for nuclear bombs or the person that made it and used it? You don't shout on streets that physicist or physics are to blame, the fault is on the individual or group which happened to be physicists but you can't put every single one of them into the same bin because there are many more physicists that are doing something beneficial for mankind.

People are completely blind on Muslims who fight terrorist organizations, help in charity, help in everyday situations and so on. People don't give them in public credit because that has nothing to do with Islam from their view but when terrorists do something then there the media stands screaming how Islam is terrible, violent and so on. When Muslims do good things it's completely ignored because who cares, but when terrorists (who don't follow Islam at all) do something bad all of the Muslims are to blame and their religion. Does that sound logical to you?

Not at all...

But that goes with anything. We also never heard about the birthday parties that John Wayne Gacy entertained until we found the bodies of 30+ teenagers in the crawl space under his house. Don't blame the people....

Blame the media.

 

[icehorse]

Raahim,

I agree that there are many people who don't know anything about Islam who criticize Muslims without trying to see the whole picture. And of course I agree that there are many Muslims fighting the very few terrorists there are in the world.

You bring up a comparison with physics. Okay, let's go with that. Physics is a tool we use. Good people can use physics for good purposes, and bad people can use physics for bad purposes. Are we good so far? But notice that physicists are free to experiment, find better answers, and discard old, no longer useful ideas.

Islam is also a tool that can be used for good or for evil. But there are a few problems:

First off, the most natural and obvious understanding of the Quran is that it promotes supremacy, misogyny, anti-semetism, homophobia, and intolerance in general. Over 1300 hundred years of Islamic history demonstrates that millions and millions of Muslims have consistently interpreted the Quran exactly as I have just described. So you can claim that those millions of Muslims got it wrong, but I don't care! As long as so many Muslims continue to get it wrong, it's a dangerous tool.

Second: By its own definition, Islam's ability to evolve is severely limited. For the most part, we're stuck with a vision of the world that came from people who knew almost nothing of the world. This isn't to slam 7th century Arabia, this was the state of the entire world 1300 years ago. I am happy to grant you that Islamic teachings were very useful in a primitive, tribal, hostile slice of desert. But the world is very different than that now, and we cannot afford to give such out-of-date, tribal messages any power. What we've seen for 1300 years is that far too often, Muslims use Islam for evil.

Just to save time, much of what I just said about Islam, is also true of Christianity.

 

[DawudTalut]

.......
Islam is also a tool that can be used for good or for evil. But there are a few problems:

First off, the most natural and obvious understanding of the Quran is that it promotes supremacy,

Peace be on you.
Trying to see from your angle of view.
If you please see with depth, you will find though Quran states it is the right path, but it also ask believers to live with Justice with non believers, and sense of co-operation.
[5:9]O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do.

misogyny,

Overall it give respect to women, which she has not gained enough yet even in highly advanced materialistic places.
https://www.alislam.org/library/women.html

anti-semetism,

Not true. Middle east problems have caused aberration too.

homophobia, and

It is un-natural but should be dealt with kindness. Mixing male female genders, premarital activities, breaking families, abuse of women has direct link with this increasing issue.

intolerance in general.
Over 1300 hundred years of Islamic history demonstrates that millions and millions of Muslims have consistently interpreted the Quran exactly as I have just described.

There were other million and millions who followed the true path.

So you can claim that those millions of Muslims got it wrong, but I don't care! As long as so many Muslims continue to get it wrong, it's a dangerous tool.

Agree......Muslims should come out of clutches of corrupt clergies. They should come back to paths of leaning, of which they were once leaders and Europe learned ffrom them.

Second: By its own definition, Islam's ability to evolve is severely limited. For the most part, we're stuck with a vision of the world that came from people who knew almost nothing of the world. This isn't to slam 7th century Arabia, this was the state of the entire world 1300 years ago. I am happy to grant you that Islamic teachings were very useful in a primitive, tribal, hostile slice of desert. But the world is very different than that now, and we cannot afford to give such out-of-date, tribal messages any power. What we've seen for 1300 years is that far too often, Muslims use Islam for evil.

There has been lot of contributions of Muslim scholars for world. There are many now too.


March 2013 eGazette – The Muslim Heritage and the European Renaissance @
https://www.alislam.org/egazette/eg...muslim-heritage-and-the-european-renaissance/


As you know, the emerging phenomenon of Ahmadiyya Muslims is the answers to your [and others'] many complaints.