Hi, I often hear this term "moderate". What does that mean when it is used in conjunction with "Muslim"? How is it different from a regular Muslim?
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Questions for non-Muslims
- Thread starter Taahir
- Start date
Hi, I often hear this term "moderate". What does that mean when it is used in conjunction with "Muslim"? How is it different from a regular Muslim?
For those that don't believe in the science, what are your thoughts on the following article, regarding the section about the Qur'an?
http://deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-biblethe-quran-science.pdf
http://deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-biblethe-quran-science.pdf
Questions are good.
i. No
ii. No
iii. I can't read it in Arabic, so can't objectively judge. My best guess is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Though I suspect, such a thread would be the Internet equivalent of roadkill.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Too boring for words to convey.....
Now if Muslims were world famous for doing real science....
I still wonder why Muslims try and sell the Qur'an as a science book? It's not a science lesson, it's a book of faith for those who believe in it. Trying to prove Islam is the right religion by science in the Qur'an is not a wise selling technique.
Sorry if it's coming off that way. Just want outside Muslim opinions on it, as that's where the opinions usually come from for me.
Although, science that could not have been known 1400 years ago now coming to light could be a real eye opener for some people in my opinion.
Seeing how seriously the matter is taken among Muslims, I would be surprised if I even learned that it has been changed; maybe it changed slightly during the life of the Prophet (following His instructions), I don't know.
I hear about that sometimes, but no, currently I don't believe that is quite true. If you want to point out a thread dealing with this, I will be thankful.
Nearly every book is unique. I don't think the Quran is remarkably unique, though. Again, feel free to point a relevant thread to me.
- No.
- No.
- (1) I do not know. (2) I am not aware of such a challenge nor do I believe it to be meaningful.
I think it's way too bloody long. Imagine if I just told you to "read the Eddas" if I were trying to argue in favor of Asatru scientific miracles (which I would never do, because I consider such a concept nonsensical.)
Can you provide some highlights?
Science isn't a collection of things "known". It's a method by which ignorance is removed.
I believe you mean "facts." Problem is, I've seen most of the presented "facts," and not a single one of them has impressed me thus far, from "separating Earth and Heaven" referring to the Big Bang to the "seven levels of Heaven" referring to the seven layers of the atmosphere. Both of these which come to mind right now are complete nonsense, as "separating Earth and Heaven" is a common mythological element from WAY before Islam, and the "seven levels of Heaven" seems to me to clearly refer to the Ptolemic Model of the Universe, in which the Earth is circled by the Seven Heavens of Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, a model that was extremely popular at the time and for at least a century afterwards until Galileo.
Agnostic75
Well-Known Member
Taahir said:
Regarding item 1, even if the Qur'an has never been changed, that does not reasonably prove that God had anything to do with it.
Regarding item 2, please give an example.
Surely the ancient Greeks were the greatest scientists in history by far, not to mention their significant contributions to art, literature, and philosophy.
Regarding item 3, uniqueness does not necessarily have to have anything to do with the truth.
A God would not have any problem proving to everyone in the world that he had powers far beyond any human. The fact that that has not happened indicates that if a God exists, he has chosen not to try to convince all humans that he exists.
If a God only wanted people to have faith, he would not provide any scientific evidence.
If a God wanted to communicate with humans, there would be no advantage for him, or for humans, for him to stay invisible, and use human intermediaries to communicate with humans. Even Muslims themselves have fought many wars among themselves, and often disagree about how to properly interpret the Qur'an.
Fifth thousand years ago, who told people about God? Experts say that modern humans have existed for over fifty thousand years.
1. Yes.
2. No
3. Since I can not read/speak arabic, no, but I'm willing to give this claim the benefit of the doubt.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, We do.
There are scientific evidence that shows a knowledge that Muhammad an illiterate man could not know, unless He was inspired by God.
But these are not the ones commonly believed in youtube.
Yes.
That's not true.
See here for some verses of a Surrah like Quran:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2968782-post113.html
Tell me about it how it is different?
Thank you.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...uran-challenge-bring-ten-invented-surahs.html
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I dont think the Quran is an extensive book on science. I believe it contains signs for those who believe.
"(This is) a Book (the Quran) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember." | Quran 38:29 |
"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah." (Quran2:2)
I think by scientific miracles Taahir meant some of these..
The Quran talks about some of these proofs in allegorical terms, because the language was not developed enough to say them in truly scientific terms. For instance, the universe is claimed to be continually expanding: [51:47] We constructed the universe with might, and We are expanding it.
The earth’s rotation is explained by:
[27:88] When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
And again the earth’s rotation is explained by:
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
The night is always persuing the day when you look at the earth from space.
Also the Quran specifies that the early stage of development for the Universe was gaseous:
[41:11] Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still gas, and He said to it, and to the earth: “Come willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
Furthermore, the Big Bang is talked about in the Quran, where everything came from a SINGULARITY:
[21:30]Did those who reject not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass and We tore them apart? That We made from the water everything that lives. Will they not acknowledge?
Also this verse brings up the fact that every living thing was created from water. This supports the theory of evolution. Many other times it is said in the Quran that human beings were created from clay. This is an allegory for saying that human beings are made from earthly materials, not from “fire” or energy, like the “jinn beings”.
[15:27] As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire
Evolution is explained as a TOOL OF CREATION in the following verses:
[71:14] “While He created you in stages?”
[71:15]“Did you not see how God created seven heavens in harmony?”
[71:16] “He made the moon to illuminate in them, and He made the sun to be a lit flame?”
[71:17]“God made you grow from the earth as plants.”
And also evolution is explained:
[29:19] Did they not observe how God initiates the creation then He returns it? All that for God is easy to do.
[29:20] Say, “Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Then God will establish the final design. God is capable of all things.”
____________
[24:45] God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things.
Also, the embryonic development of a child is explained before science had ever analyzed these things.
[23:14] Then We created the seed into an embryo, then We created the embryo into a fetus, then We created the fetus into bone, then We covered the bone with flesh, then We brought forth a new creation. So glory be to God, the best of creators.
The word that is translated as “fetus” is the Arabic word “alaq”, which literally means “hanging thing”. They didn’t have a word at the time for “fetus”.
Also, the mountains are talked about as “pegs” or “roots”which help stabilize the crustal plates from shifting so much. This theory is very new to geologists even today, but is talked about in this article here:
Mountain Ranges Rise Much More Rapidly Than Geologists Expected
[78:6] Did We not make the earth a resting ground?
[78:7] The mountains as pegs?
They are talked about again:
[16:15] He has cast into the earth stabilizers so that it does not sway with you, and rivers, and paths, perhaps you will be guided.
Also, evaporation is allegorically explained by:
[25:53] He is the One who merges the two bodies of water. This is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. He made between them a partition and an inviolable barrier.
The seas on earth are salty. The sea of water vapor in the sky is fresh and palatable. The evaporation is the the inviolable barrier between them.
Now I will talk about the numerical codes and miracles in the Quran, which prove it couldn’t have been written by humans. At the minimum it would need a computer.
Even before the actual “code” was found, people realized there were many numerical coincidences in the Quran. For instance:
Aliens wrote the Quran? Proof it wasn’t written by Humans | The Top Information Post
"(This is) a Book (the Quran) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember." | Quran 38:29 |
"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah." (Quran2:2)
I think by scientific miracles Taahir meant some of these..
The Quran talks about some of these proofs in allegorical terms, because the language was not developed enough to say them in truly scientific terms. For instance, the universe is claimed to be continually expanding: [51:47] We constructed the universe with might, and We are expanding it.
The earth’s rotation is explained by:
[27:88] When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
And again the earth’s rotation is explained by:
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
The night is always persuing the day when you look at the earth from space.
Also the Quran specifies that the early stage of development for the Universe was gaseous:
[41:11] Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still gas, and He said to it, and to the earth: “Come willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
Furthermore, the Big Bang is talked about in the Quran, where everything came from a SINGULARITY:
[21:30]Did those who reject not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass and We tore them apart? That We made from the water everything that lives. Will they not acknowledge?
Also this verse brings up the fact that every living thing was created from water. This supports the theory of evolution. Many other times it is said in the Quran that human beings were created from clay. This is an allegory for saying that human beings are made from earthly materials, not from “fire” or energy, like the “jinn beings”.
[15:27] As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire
Evolution is explained as a TOOL OF CREATION in the following verses:
[71:14] “While He created you in stages?”
[71:15]“Did you not see how God created seven heavens in harmony?”
[71:16] “He made the moon to illuminate in them, and He made the sun to be a lit flame?”
[71:17]“God made you grow from the earth as plants.”
And also evolution is explained:
[29:19] Did they not observe how God initiates the creation then He returns it? All that for God is easy to do.
[29:20] Say, “Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Then God will establish the final design. God is capable of all things.”
____________
[24:45] God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things.
Also, the embryonic development of a child is explained before science had ever analyzed these things.
[23:14] Then We created the seed into an embryo, then We created the embryo into a fetus, then We created the fetus into bone, then We covered the bone with flesh, then We brought forth a new creation. So glory be to God, the best of creators.
The word that is translated as “fetus” is the Arabic word “alaq”, which literally means “hanging thing”. They didn’t have a word at the time for “fetus”.
Also, the mountains are talked about as “pegs” or “roots”which help stabilize the crustal plates from shifting so much. This theory is very new to geologists even today, but is talked about in this article here:
Mountain Ranges Rise Much More Rapidly Than Geologists Expected
[78:6] Did We not make the earth a resting ground?
[78:7] The mountains as pegs?
They are talked about again:
[16:15] He has cast into the earth stabilizers so that it does not sway with you, and rivers, and paths, perhaps you will be guided.
Also, evaporation is allegorically explained by:
[25:53] He is the One who merges the two bodies of water. This is fresh and palatable and this is salty and bitter. He made between them a partition and an inviolable barrier.
The seas on earth are salty. The sea of water vapor in the sky is fresh and palatable. The evaporation is the the inviolable barrier between them.
Now I will talk about the numerical codes and miracles in the Quran, which prove it couldn’t have been written by humans. At the minimum it would need a computer.
Even before the actual “code” was found, people realized there were many numerical coincidences in the Quran. For instance:
- The word “month” (shahr) occurs 12 times.
- The word “day” (yawm) occurs 365 times.
- The word “days” (eyyam, yawmeyn) occurs 30 times.
- The words “satan” (shaytan) & “angel” (malak), each occur 88 times.
- The words “this world” (dunya) and “hereafter” (ahirah), each occur 115 times.
Aliens wrote the Quran? Proof it wasn’t written by Humans | The Top Information Post
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
compared to arabic "rhymed prose" as it partakes of both poetry and prose..
Lets compare them:
Here is the Surah of Dominion, revealed by the Bab. It is in the Quranic style and rhyme. The translation is provissional:
Sūrat al-mulk
[1]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الحمد لله الذی الّذی نزّل الكتاب علی عبده بالحقّ ليكون للعالمين سراجاً وهّاجاً
"ALL praise be to God Who hath, through the power of Truth, sent down this Book unto His servant [the Bāb],
that it may serve as a shining light for all mankind."
(SWB:41)
[3]
انّ هذا صراط علیّ عند ربّك بالحقّ قد كان فی امّ الكتاب علی الحق القيّم مستقيماً
This, in truth, in the estimation of God, is the Exalted Path (sirāṭ `aliyy) [`Alī ]
It verily, stretches upright according to the truth established in the Mother Book (umm al-kitāb)
[4]
و انّه فی امّ الكتاب لدينا لعلیّ و علی الحق الاكبر قد كان عند الرّحمن حكيماً
And He is, in the Mother Book which is before Us, assuredly One Exalted, One according to the Most Great Truth
(al-ḥaqq al-akbar), reckoned wise (ḥakīm an) on the part of the All-Merciful.
[5]
و انّه الحق من عند اللّه *علی الدّين الخالص قد كان فی امّ الكتاب مسطوراً
He is the True One from God (al-ḥaqq min `and Allāh) according to the pure religion (al-dīn al-khāliṣ
inscribed in the Mother Book in the vicinity of the Mount [Sinai] (al-ṭūr).
[6]
انّ هذا لهو الحقّ صراط اللّه فی السّموات و الارض فمن شاء اتّخذه الی اللّه بالحقّ سبيلاً
"Verily, this is none other than the sovereign Truth; it is the Path which God (ṣirat Allāh) hath laid out for all that are in heaven and on earth.
Let him then who will, take for himself the right path unto his Lord.
(SWB:41)
[7]
انّ هذا لهو الدّين القيّم و كفی باللّه و من عنده علم الكتاب شهيداً
"Verily this is the true Faith of God, [Upright Religion] (al-dīn al-qayyim).
You can read the rest of Surah here:
Tell me how these are any different than Quran?
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Investigate Truth we have already had our disagreements in another thread..
It just seems very odd that the Abrahamic God would suddenly start with the manifestations, Also I find it funny how according to you guys it is normal that non of the Abrahamic Prophets ever claimed divinity for themselves..until the Bab opened the Bab:sarcastic, or was it Bahaullah..I dont care eitherway seems odd that a man would claim to be God...
You can believe what you want to, it doesnt add up for me :sorry1:
Peace
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arthra
Baha'i
Yes I acknowledge that Qur'an has essentially not been changed from the time of revelation...
I would suggest that the Qur'an is not intended to be a scientific text.. Science textbooks themselves have radically changed in my lifetime. The Qur'an deals more with spiritual truths and revelation.
In my belief the style of the Qur'an can be seen in the revelation of the Bab and Baha'u'llah...such as
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb
and in Arabic
al-Bayan al-`Arabi
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You miss the point. Its not about which religion is true. My question was clear: how those verses are any different than verses of Quran. Our intention is not to prove they r from God or not. But from a litrature point of view and the style and whatever makes Quran surah, how do they appear any different.