Questions of interest to Bahai's

[InvestigateTruth]

The rhythm and wakth of 1:5 and 2:19 are very different. Also, this is seriously silly because of the pesu/sukun conjunction and the sun letter moon letter difference. What in this magnificent universe are you talking about? This is bordering ridiculousness sis. I am ashamed to have responded to this level of ignorance.

Allahu muheethul kaafireen. (not kafareen). How is that rhythmic with Eeyaaka nabudhu waeeyaaka nasthaeen?

No one has to be master of everything, but we dont have to pretend or speak in superiority without a kindergarten level of knowledge in what ever subject. Someone exploited your lack of knowledge. Apologies, but that's the truth.

Let me remind you that I did not bring the subject of your sacred book Kayyoom al Asma. It was you who shared it with me, and prior to that I have never read it in my life. Otherwise I will not be discussing this. So no offence.

You have not understood the intricacies of the Qur'an to any level. Which is why you are saying these things. Maybe you got these information from someone and blindly believed. But its far more scientific than that.

Anyway, I can't say anything further. This is just absurd. You will not answer a single question objectively on this subject I am sure of it. Lets see.

I mean there is rhyme. The words ending in verses have certain rhyme. Don't you see this? And you don't even want to compare this, with the Book of Qayoom Alasma.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, this is not in the original arabic text. This has been added by someone for whatever reason. Its not translation, this is an interpolation. Which is why I want to find out what it means. Bab never said it. Do you understand? Its not Babs work, this is someone else's addition. I said that many times for you to get it.

See what you did? Because you dont intend to explore but just justify anything and everything with anything that comes into your mind you are even willing to create some lie. Sorry but this kind of making up things on the fly is even an embarrassment to your divinities.

Peace.

Maybe, you need to quote the Arabic verse and compare it with the translation.
I agree a lot of times, the translations are not word for word, or exact literal translations. But be specific about what you are trying to say in this case? Why did you pick up on the term "power of truth"?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You know what Im curious to ask?

Do you know what the Kayyoom al Asma is? Seriously. Do you know what it is? This is your own scripture you are trying to make a writing "like the Qur'an" but that's conflicting with what it is supposed to be.

How does your question is related to OP? Maybe I do, or maybe I don't know what the Qayyoom Alasma is. But, this is a thread you made to discuss about what I know, or do you want to discuss about the Bahai scriptures?

 

[firedragon]

The problem with your logic is, you are making up a standard, based on standards current among people. You need to see how Quran tells us about its standards.
I have quoted many times from Quran which says what is special about it. First the Quran says, if anyone falsely attribute words to Allah, He will cut his neck artery, so, if Muhammad made up a Verse which was not really from God, He will take His life. This is the standard! The Quran also, claims it has Mutishabihat and Muhkamaat. It is a Book of Guidence. It is revealed in Arabic. These are some of the main standards that Quran claims. You would need to see if the Book of the Bab also has these Standards.

Where does Quran say anything about memorizing Quran by Hafiz? Where did you get this idea from?

So what's your point? Because the Quran says it should be memorised or not means it "cannot"? You have no standards to make. Zilch. And you cannot answer a question about your own scripture other than that it has arabic and you think that makes it "In Quranic style". It was you who brought in the Kayyoom al Asma by the Bab, it was you who shared it, it was you who claimed "Its in the Quranic style" but you dont know the Quranic style in any manner and now you are asking for why its relevant to the topic. IIf its not relevant why in the world you bring it up?

Just think about it logically. The Quran said no one other than Allah can bring Surrahs like the Quran.

But Babs book is not like the Quran.

Anyway since you say this irrelevant to the post though it was you who brought it up, there is no point at all in continuing.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

How does your question is related to OP? Maybe I do, or maybe I don't know what the Qayyoom Alasma is. But, this is a thread you made to discuss about what I know, or do you want to discuss about the Bahai scriptures?

You brought it up sis. So if this is irrelevant to ask, it was irrelevant of you to bring an irrelevant topic up. Something is seriously wrong.

When you make a claim, you have to know about that claim. When you quote your book, you have to know your book. It is a shameful answer to quote your book, not know anything about it at all, then say "its not relevant what you know".

Absurd. Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

Maybe, you need to quote the Arabic verse and compare it with the translation.
I agree a lot of times, the translations are not word for word, or exact literal translations. But be specific about what you are trying to say in this case? Why did you pick up on the term "power of truth"?

Nah. Thats fine. Cheers. Since you brought this book up and now say its irrelevant and not to ask your knowledge about your own book, its not a worthy discussion to pursue.

Cheers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So what's your point? Because the Quran says it should be memorised or not means it "cannot"? You have no standards to make. Zilch. And you cannot answer a question about your own scripture other than that it has arabic and you think that makes it "In Quranic style". It was you who brought in the Kayyoom al Asma by the Bab, it was you who shared it, it was you who claimed "Its in the Quranic style" but you dont know the Quranic style in any manner and now you are asking for why its relevant to the topic. IIf its not relevant why in the world you bring it up?

.

It was you who brought the idea of memorizing Quran by Hafiz. I am aware that Muslims think, the Quran is revealed in a way it is easy to memorize and they consider this a standard writing which cannot be imitated.
I am just saying, this idea does not come from the Quran, as there is no verse in Quran which claims anything special about being easily memorised.


.

But Babs book is not like the Quran.

Anyway since you say this irrelevant to the post though it was you who brought it up, there is no point at all in continuing.

Cheers.

Yea, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but yet you have not been able to disprove the claim of the Bab, who said, Allah revealed a Book like Quran!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Nah. Thats fine. Cheers. Since you brought this book up and now say its irrelevant and not to ask your knowledge about your own book, its not a worthy discussion to pursue.

Cheers.

Here you go again, instead of , discussing the Religion, and Books, you are getting personal about my knowledge. Suppose I don't know anything about Bahai Faith. How would that disprove the Bahai Faith? So, if there was a Muslim, who didnt know about Islam, does that disprove Muhammad? I hope you can understand the point.

Peace

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, if he used any other version of the Hadith it would contradict his primary teachings.

How do you know the other version of Hadith is more correct than the one Bahaullah used?

Also you missed the point about ahadith. Bab and Bahaullah predominantly quote Shii sources and Shii doctrine.

Yes, Bahaullah in the Iqan quoted mostly Hadithes by the Shia Imams, but in some other Books, He also quoted hadithes from Muhammad as well.
Do you think, the Mahdi is not supposed to quote any Hadith from Shia Imams? Shia Imams could not have been possibly truly chosen by Allah? How do you know that?

This logic, is like, if a Jew dislikes Quran, because, the Quran says Jesus was the Messiah. Something that the Jews do not accept! So, now if Allah says, Shia Imams were chosen and inspired by Allah, this is is not acceptable in the eyes of a Sunni Muslims, because they see it against their own belief.
Another example, is like some Christian who when they see, Bahai Faith confirms Muhammad and Quran, they don't like Bahai faith, as in their eyes, certainly Muhammad is a false Prophet. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[firedragon]

How do you know the other version of Hadith is more correct than the one Bahaullah used?

Who said which one is correct? Do you understand a sentence? I said "If he used".

Yes, Bahaullah in the Iqan quoted mostly Hadithes by the Shia Imams, but in some other Books, He also quoted hadithes from Muhammad as well.

No. He misquoted. So that's the question which you are not answering.

Here you go again, instead of , discussing the Religion, and Books, you are getting personal about my knowledge. Suppose I don't know anything about Bahai Faith. How would that disprove the Bahai Faith? So, if there was a Muslim, who didnt know about Islam, does that disprove Muhammad? I hope you can understand the point.

Peace

Nope. You are quoting a book which I never quoted, I read it, and asked you questions on it. You cannot answer. Now you say I get personal?

Nice going.

Cheers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who said which one is correct? Do you understand a sentence? I said "If he used".

Ok. So, no problem there.

No. He misquoted. So that's the question which you are not answering.

I did answer. It is not misquoting. It is interpreting a Hadith, while referring to it.
Remember, Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God, He is not writing exam that we can tell Him, why you did not write exactly as it is in the Hadith. How do you know He is not really a manifestation of God?

Nope. You are quoting a book which I never quoted, I read it, and asked you questions on it. You cannot answer. Now you say I get personal?

Nice going.

Cheers.

I quoted Qayoom Alasma. If you are saying it is not like Quran, you need to tell, why.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Hence, a sincerely pious and believing man can not allow entry into his heart the thought that the verses of my Bayán [40] come from another one but God. [41] Perhaps, the pen would refuse its service to such a work..."

"There can thus be no doubt about this for a Muslim: the Qur'án was created by God, men and demons are incapable of producing even a single verse: hence, whatever is a verse, is the work of God. That [Hence] if you say that I am Myself the Author, you ascribe a lie to the Qur'án which has foreseen your objection; but, if He had not done so [foreseen your objection], that God is the master of the events of this world [is evident]: if He gave to the Prophets Whom He sent proofs of their mission, it is impossible that He did not unmask every charlatan who wished to pass himself off as sent by Him, risking thus the success of His work of salvation. How from then on could He permit a false prophet to produce verses which, by definition, are [of] divine manufacture? On the contrary, He would paralyze the hand that wished to write them, the tongue that wished to speak them, the brain that wanted to compose them before such a blasphemy could take place. Furthermore, since you believe in the divinity of the verses, because they are the work of God, because men and demons would be incapable of producing them, how can you say that if I produce them, they do not come from heaven? "

Selected from Seven Proofs, The Bab

The Seven Proofs

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am puzzled about the above argument over whether a writing of the Bab is like the Koran. It seems to me that like is a very subjective matter unless two things are very different. If one item discusses minor league baseball and the other the chemical composition of gunpowder it is clearer to say they are unalike. Though people enthusiastic for argument may find even there elements of style to combat over.

Just to be clear I am inclined to keep some distance from the Bab's claim, its outside of my very tiny Arabic expertise.

The Bab explained how His Revelation is like Quran. I quoted Him above.

 

[firedragon]

The Bab explained how His Revelation is like Quran. I quoted Him above.

You still have not given a single valid reason why you say it is like the Qur'an.

 

[firedragon]

"Hence, a sincerely pious and believing man can not allow entry into his heart the thought that the verses of my Bayán [40] come from another one but God. [41] Perhaps, the pen would refuse its service to such a work..."

"There can thus be no doubt about this for a Muslim: the Qur'án was created by God, men and demons are incapable of producing even a single verse: hence, whatever is a verse, is the work of God. That [Hence] if you say that I am Myself the Author, you ascribe a lie to the Qur'án which has foreseen your objection; but, if He had not done so [foreseen your objection], that God is the master of the events of this world [is evident]: if He gave to the Prophets Whom He sent proofs of their mission, it is impossible that He did not unmask every charlatan who wished to pass himself off as sent by Him, risking thus the success of His work of salvation. How from then on could He permit a false prophet to produce verses which, by definition, are [of] divine manufacture? On the contrary, He would paralyze the hand that wished to write them, the tongue that wished to speak them, the brain that wanted to compose them before such a blasphemy could take place. Furthermore, since you believe in the divinity of the verses, because they are the work of God, because men and demons would be incapable of producing them, how can you say that if I produce them, they do not come from heaven? "

Selected from Seven Proofs, The Bab

The Seven Proofs

See, Ayah means a divine sign. You may just on the surface translate it as verse with the understanding that each verse of the Quran is a sign of God. But thinking of the linguistics, an Ayah or ayathun is a sign or or a mark which someone is known for. You are thinking it is a "simple arabic verse". No, that's not what that means. Edward Lane gives the example of the sentence "eifaulhoo bi ayathin Qazaa" which means "Do thou it at the sign of such a thing".

Thus, the Quran's challenge with the "verse" is not to produce an arabic sentence and claim I did it, rather it saying that Humans and Gin's put together, helping each other will never be able to produce a sign like God's signs.

This is a problem of understanding.

 

[CG Didymus]

the Qur'án was created by God, men and demons

it saying that Humans and Gin's put together

Do Baha'is even believe in demons/gins?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

See, Ayah means a divine sign. You may just on the surface translate it as verse with the understanding that each verse of the Quran is a sign of God. But thinking of the linguistics, an Ayah or ayathun is a sign or or a mark which someone is known for. You are thinking it is a "simple arabic verse". No, that's not what that means. Edward Lane gives the example of the sentence "eifaulhoo bi ayathin Qazaa" which means "Do thou it at the sign of such a thing".

Thus, the Quran's challenge with the "verse" is not to produce an arabic sentence and claim I did it, rather it saying that Humans and Gin's put together, helping each other will never be able to produce a sign like God's signs.

This is a problem of understanding.

The verses are signs of God. Since the Bab produced the verses, which by definition are signs of God, thus, His Book is a divine revelation.
Do you say, the verses of Quran are not signs of God? Then what are the signs of God in your understanding? Creation of universe? But that is understood by science, there is no miracle, pure science. Do you know about big bang and evolution? So, what are the signs of God in your view? Tell me a few signs of God please.!

So far you could not even bring one reason to disprove the Bab's claim.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You still have not given a single valid reason why you say it is like the Qur'an.

I did. It may not be valid for you. It Is valid for me.
Just as Quran was seen as a valid proof of God for the believers, and at the same time it is not valid for disbelievers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do Baha'is even believe in demons/gins?

Bahais believe Ginns have symbolic meaning. Feel free to find its symbolic meaning.

 

[firedragon]

The verses are signs of God. Since the Bab produced the verses, which by definition are signs of God, thus, His Book is a divine revelation.
Do you say, the verses of Quran are not signs of God? Then what are the signs of God in your understanding? Creation of universe? But that is understood by science, there is no miracle, pure science. Do you know about big bang and evolution? So, what are the signs of God in your view? Tell me a few signs of God please.!

So far you could not even bring one reason to disprove the Bab's claim.

1. So the standard is that anyone who produces verses like those many who made up chapters in arabic are God's. Thats invalid.

2. Ah. So now you are asking for what is signs of God! And about science, pure scienceetc etc. Can you explain something because you say there is no miracle whatsoever and its all pure science? Okay.

Thanks for asking about Big Bang. You asked me if I know, well, most people in the world know because it was probably taught to them in school at some point. But maybe you think I didn't go to school for some reason. Thats good. Good for you seriously.

You should know that the Big Bang theory is based on the radius on in the universe exactly accelerating in length at the optimal point enough to maintain the universe without a Big Crunch. Its as stable an expansion as any one could ever imagine. Thus, the theory of the Big Bang was born. This theory of the Big Bang though not by name was cited in the Qur'an 1400 years ago in two ways and corresponds to the new discovery in the 20th century by Edwin Hubble. One is the single point or Ratqan that was cloven apart indicating the Big Bang directly and the lamoosioona in the Qur'an which means a "steady/stable expansion of the universe" just as discovered by scientists in the 20th century. So yes. That is about Big Bang.

3. You said I have not brought in one claim to disprove Bab's claim. See, this thread was not created to disprove anything. It was to seek answers. You have not provided anything. It was you who brought in the Qayyoom al Asma as a book in the style of the Qur'an. SO it is your burden to provide the evidence which you have not. All you have said is its in arabic. But you dont even know what this book is about and you already have claimed its personal to ask what you know. See what you dont understand is when you claim something, it is your burden of proof and it is your burden to have knowledge of it. You have no knowledge of it whatsoever and by the way you have responded its simple to see. Now asking me to provide some kind of debunking to Bab's claim is called the "burden of proof fallacy". That happens generally when people make claims they cannot substantiate but needs it established.