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Questions On Life After Death and the Laws

Draupadi

Active Member
I have read somewhere that there is no concept of hell and heaven in Judaism. The word that is translated as hell is actually the grave or pit. How far is this true?

What rules do Christians reject from the Old Testament and on what basis? It seems odd to do so since Jesus Himself had said that He came to fulfill the Law. And two different laws for two different times? Do you have the concept of abrogation too? Why are the followers of Christ, who was a Jew, called Christians and not Jews?

Why are the Gods of the two testaments so different? Why does a Jew reject Jesus Christ? If He is not the Messiah then who is?

Everyone is welcome to answer the questions :). And thanks for doing so.
 

Thana

Lady
Sheol is the grave or the pit, Which is different from Gehenna, Which is the destination of the wicked. I believe it's similar to the Christian concept of hell, Just not eternal.

Also I believe they have a concept of heaven, Olam Ha Ba (The World to Come). I'm not so confident in my understanding of Judaism, Perhaps you'd get better answers from the Judaism DIR.

We don't follow all the 613 mitzvot that the Orthodox Jewish follow because we have Jesus.

Galations 2:21 -
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

I'm not sure what you mean by two different laws?

Apparently we're called Christians because it's the latin translation Christos from the Jewish word mashiach which roughly means Messiah.
So we're Christians because we follow Christ, Our Messiah.

The Gods of the two testaments? Christians are monotheists, So we either believe Jesus is God or Jesus is not God but there are not two Gods.
As to why they seem different, Well the answer varies depending on who you ask.

As to why Jews reject Jesus, It's because they believe He is not the Messiah and they are still waiting for the Messiah to come. They believe He is not the Messiah because He did not fulfill all that was expected of Him, But we Christians believe He will at His second coming.

Anyway I hope I helped, But like I said, I really don't have that great of a understanding of Judaism so you might be better off getting a second opinion from the Judaism DIR.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I have read somewhere that there is no concept of hell and heaven in Judaism. The word that is translated as hell is actually the grave or pit. How far is this true?

What rules do Christians reject from the Old Testament and on what basis? It seems odd to do so since Jesus Himself had said that He came to fulfill the Law. And two different laws for two different times? Do you have the concept of abrogation too? Why are the followers of Christ, who was a Jew, called Christians and not Jews?

Why are the Gods of the two testaments so different? Why does a Jew reject Jesus Christ? If He is not the Messiah then who is?

Everyone is welcome to answer the questions :). And thanks for doing so.

That is a loaded OP. Each question warrants its own thread. But I will comment on the question in bold. The bible begins with Israel (Gen 32:28) and ends with Israel (Rev 21:12). Which indicates to me, the book is all about Israel and their physical descendants. Other nations/peoples are mentioned as they come in contact with them.

The nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms-The Northern ten tribes and the Southern two tribes consisting of Judah and Benjamin (some include the Levites). God scattered all 12 tribes throughout the gentiles or nations. The Northern kingdom lost their identity as Israelites (Hos 8:8;Amo 9:9), but the Southern two tribes mostly kept theirs and became known as the Jews of today. This indicates that all Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews. Similarly, all New Yorkers are American but not all Americans are New Yorkers.

God promised He would not forget about the Northern tribes (Hos 2:23) who, by the time of Jesus, were scattered throughout the earth. Since the Jews (two tribes) rejected Christ at the outset of the NT, God blinded most of them and decided to work primarily with the descendants of the displaced Israelites (10 tribes), AKA "gentiles" (Act 28:25-29)--- the true Israelites/Christians of today. True Christians today consist of the physical descendants of the Jews and Israelites and should keep, at the very least in principle, the same laws as their ancestors minus the sacrifices, which were temporarily suspended until Christ returns. Unfortunately, true Christianity, which according to Christ should have been a extension of true OT Judaism practiced at the time of Moses but ceased soon after Nehemiah, was hijacked shortly after Christ's death, hence the Christianity you see today.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That is a loaded OP. Each question warrants its own thread. But I will comment on the question in bold. The bible begins with Israel (Gen 32:28) and ends with Israel (Rev 21:12). Which indicates to me, the book is all about Israel and their physical descendants. Other nations/peoples are mentioned as they come in contact with them.

The nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms-The Northern ten tribes and the Southern two tribes consisting of Judah and Benjamin (some include the Levites). God scattered all 12 tribes throughout the gentiles or nations. The Northern kingdom lost their identity as Israelites (Hos 8:8;Amo 9:9), but the Southern two tribes mostly kept theirs and became known as the Jews of today. This indicates that all Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews. Similarly, all New Yorkers are American but not all Americans are New Yorkers.

God promised He would not forget about the Northern tribes (Hos 2:23) who, by the time of Jesus, were scattered throughout the earth. Since the Jews (two tribes) rejected Christ at the outset of the NT, God blinded most of them and decided to work primarily with the descendants of the displaced Israelites (10 tribes), AKA "gentiles" (Act 28:25-29)--- the true Israelites/Christians of today. True Christians today consist of the physical descendants of the Jews and Israelites and should keep, at the very least in principle, the same laws as their ancestors minus the sacrifices, which were temporarily suspended until Christ returns. Unfortunately, true Christianity, which according to Christ should have been a extension of true OT Judaism practiced at the time of Moses but ceased soon after Nehemiah, was hijacked shortly after Christ's death, hence the Christianity you see today.

This sounds like British Israelism nonsense. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
This sounds like British Israelism nonsense. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Have not found any evidence against it in the biblical or historical record. Believe me, I looked and looked hard. I've carefully considered both sides and BI is the clear winner.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
What is your opinion about my questions Saint Frankenstein?

Sorry, I'll get to those. You're all over the place in the OP with your questions and it would take multiple posts and a lot of time to answer your questions fully.

Have not found any evidence against it in the biblical or historical record. Believe me, I looked and looked hard. I've carefully considered both sides and BI is the clear winner.

There is no historical or Biblical basis for British Israelism. It was made up as a way to rationalize British colonialism, much as theories of "biological race" were made up to rationalize the brutal oppression of the non-white people of the world by Europeans. God is not a racist and it is blasphemy to make Him out to be such. White people and Jews aren't special.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I have read somewhere that there is no concept of hell and heaven in Judaism. The word that is translated as hell is actually the grave or pit. How far is this true?

That is 100% accurate.

The hebrew scriptures do not have a concept of hellfire to where the wicked go.

The hebrew word 'sheol' is often translated 'hell' in english bibles....here are examples of how the word 'sheol' applies in the scriptures:

The faithful patriach Job lemented that he was soon to die and said:
Job 17:17 “My spirit has been broken, my days have been extinguished;
The graveyard (heb. sheol) awaits me


Psalm 88:3  For my soul has been filled with calamity,
And my life is on the brink of the Grave (Heb. sheol).
*4 I am already counted among those going down to the pit (heb. Sheol);I have become a helpless man, *5 Left among the dead
Like the slain lying in a grave
(sheol), Whom you remember no longer
And who have been separated from your care.



Isaiah 38:9  A writing of King Hez·e·ki′ah of Judah when he became sick and recovered from his sickness.
10 I said: “In the middle of my life
I must go into the gates of the Grave (heb.Sheol).
I will be deprived of my remaining years.”


The writers of the hebrew scriptures spoke of 'sheol' as the common grave...the burial tomb, the place where the dead are placed. It was never a place of fire and torment for the wicked.

Note what this encyclopdie states about the teaching of 'hell'
The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world .*.*. as a place full of horrors, .*.*. presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E.*Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.



What rules do Christians reject from the Old Testament and on what basis? It seems odd to do so since Jesus Himself had said that He came to fulfill the Law. And two different laws for two different times?

Christians should be living according to Gods righteous standards...his standards can be seen in how his laws apply under certain situation which is what the mosaic law provides.

But the mosaic law is only applicable to the people and for the time it was provided. It was to apply to the Isrealites only until the Messiah came. When he came, it was foretold that a 'new covenant' would be given.

The new covenant pertains to only 2 laws. Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. If christians follow the 'law of the Christ' they will fulfill what God requires of them.

Besides the 'law of love', there are some mosaic laws which were carried over into Christianity, they are as follows:

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Bar′na·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

There are no other mosaic laws with regard to ceremony, festival, dietry restriction, dress code etc which was given to the christians. They simply had to
Love God
Love their neighbour as they do themselves
Abstain from things given to idols
Abstain from blood
Abstain from foods which are strangled (because the blood remains in the meat)
Abstain from all forms of sexual immorality.

These laws are part of the 'new covenant' prophesied by Jeremiah. The requirements of God changed when the Messiah came because mankind could now be declared righteous by their faith in Christ, and their commitment to love their neighbour and their God.


Why are the followers of Christ, who was a Jew, called Christians and not Jews?

Jews who rejected Jesus continued to follow Moses and the mosaic law.
But Jews who chose to follow Jesus became Jesus followers and therefore were called Christians. The Jews were required to follow Moses until the Christ came...then they should have become followers of the long awaited Messiah... but most of them chose not to for one reason or another.

Jews today are still following Moses and many are still waiting for their Messiah.

Why are the Gods of the two testaments so different?

The Gods of the two testaments are not different at all. The Hebrew scriptures speak of YHWH or Jehovah as a merciful, compassionate, loving creator. He is also describe as a 'lover of justice' and he is often maligned because he exercised his authority to execute justice.

Jesus himself spoke of Gods desire to bring complete and lasting justice to mankind... the only way justice is ensured is if God is willing to take a stance against injustice and those who cause it.

He has done that in the past as we can see from accounts in the hebrew scriptures, and he will do so again in the very near future. He is the same God and requires the same thing from us...and he will hold us accountable for our actions just as he did in the past.


Why does a Jew reject Jesus Christ? If He is not the Messiah then who is?

The jews dont believe that Jesus was the Messiah because he was put to death by the religious leaders of his day. He was charged as a fraud and a blasphemer... the jews of his day went along with the crowd in rejecting him.

But his disciples saw his miracles with their own eyes. They saw him raise the dead to life. They heard his teachings. They were 100% convinced that Jesus was the long awaited messiah because they investigated it and saw it first hand.

Others just accepted what they heard about Jesus from their religious leaders...they accepted the charge that he was a 'false' messiah.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I have read somewhere that there is no concept of hell and heaven in Judaism.

There's a variety of afterlife beliefs in Judaism. The concept of the afterlife was not really fleshed out in the Old Testament. The idea is that it was gradually revealed. Christ had much to say about the afterlife and He was the one Who really gave us the concept of hell for the unrighteous.

The word that is translated as hell is actually the grave or pit. How far is this true?

That's Sheol. That's found in the Old Testament. The main afterlife belief of the Jews during that time was that everyone goes to a sort of dreary underworld. Such ideas were popular throughout the ancient world. The Sumerians, Babylonians and Greeks all believed the same thing in that regard.

In the New Testament, the word is Gehenna, which refers to a place outside of the city where trash was taken and burnt. It's a metaphor for hell.

What rules do Christians reject from the Old Testament and on what basis?

We do not follow the Mosaic Law. Christ fulfilled the Law in its true spirit. Christians live under the Law of Grace.

I'm not in the mood to answer the other questions because I'll be typing out a novel to answer them. :(
 

Draupadi

Active Member
Thanks for the wonderful answers Pegg :). Do you think that Hell existed in the times of the OT? Because there is only mention of it in the NT.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I'll get to those.



There is no historical or Biblical basis for British Israelism. It was made up as a way to rationalize British colonialism, much as theories of "biological race" were made up to rationalize the brutal oppression of the non-white people of the world by Europeans. God is not a racist and it is blasphemy to make Him out to be such. White people and Jews aren't special.

Not all of Jacob's descendants are "white":

NOVA Online | Lost Tribes of Israel | The Lemba

I am of Spanish descent and my DNA test came back positive for the CMH gene. The same gene possessed by the very dark people in the link. Remember, God spread the Israelites' seed all over the nations of the world and many lost their ancestral identity. He loves all people. But the Israelites, despite their current national identity or color, are special in His eyes. If it interest you, I can list a myriad of verses confirming this fact.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Not all of Jacob's descendants are "white":

NOVA Online | Lost Tribes of Israel | The Lemba

I am of Spanish descent and my DNA test came back positive for the CMH gene. The same gene possessed by the very dark people in the link. Remember, God spread the Israelites' seed all over the nations of the world. He loves all people. But the Israelites, despite their current national identity or color, are special in His eyes. If it interest you, I can list a myriad of verses confirming this fact.

No, I'm not interested in reading racialist nonsense that makes God out to be a racist concerned with genetics. :rolleyes:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thanks for the wonderful answers Pegg :). Do you think that Hell existed in the times of the OT? Because there is only mention of it in the NT.

No. The word 'hell' is an old english word. The english didnt exist in the ancient world. ;)

The first bibles were only available in Hebrew and Greek ...and a little aramaic.

The greek word was 'hades' and that is the word which was used when translating the hebrew word 'sheol'... when christians started translating the bible into english, they used a word meaning 'cover' when translating the words 'hades/sheol'

'hell' is a word meaning 'cover over'... and they used this word because we 'cover over' a person who is placed in a grave. But as time when by, and christians began to adopt pagan ideas about the dead and the afterlife, the 'meaning' of the word 'hell' changed to what it is now... a place of fiery torment.

YOu can find more information about the word 'hell' on wiki where it says:
The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something"

Its interesting too that by the 7th century the word hell had taken on its new meaning... this was the time when Mohammad laying down the basis for Islam and we can see that he was also influenced by the meaning of his day... but i wonder if he knew what the original meaning of the word was??? If he did, perhaps Islam would have a very different teaching today.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That's too bad because the bible is full of passages confirming God is very much interested in the genetics of the Israelite "race".

Nope. In Christ, there are no boundaries. Your "race" does not matter. He is the Salvation of all humanity and the Church is one and exists to bring all humanity together as His Body on Earth. Tribalism is a backwards folly and has nothing to do with the God Who sent His servants out to make disciples of all nations. There is no hierarchy of love and concern with God.

British Israelism is a rather nasty heresy and is only worthy of being condemned for projecting human bigotries onto the Lord of the universe.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Nope. In Christ, there are no boundaries. Your "race" does not matter. He is the Salvation of all humanity and the Church is one and exists to bring all humanity together as His Body on Earth. Tribalism is a backwards folly and has nothing to do with the God Who sent His servants out to make disciples of all nations

Try pitching that to the Caananite men, women, and children God destroyed and evicted to make room for........you guessed it....... the twelve TRIBES Israel. :)

There is no hierarchy of love and concern with God.

Esau has to be turning over in his grave right about now:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

Esau was hated before he was even born or did anything right or wrong:

Rom 9:11-12 But before they [Jacob and Esau) were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to His own purposes; 12 He calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, "Your older son will serve your younger son."​

British Israelism is a rather nasty heresy and is only worthy of being condemned for projecting human bigotries onto the Lord of the universe.

The very little evidence I've presented so far makes this nothing but emotionally charged, highly subjective conjecture. Which you are certainly entitled. ;)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Try pitching that to the Caananite men, women, and children God destroyed and evicted to make room for........you guessed it....... the twelve TRIBES Israel. :)



Esau has to be turning over in his grave right about now:
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​
Esau was hated before he was even born or did anything right or wrong:
Rom 9:11-12 But before they [Jacob and Esau) were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to His own purposes; 12 He calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, "Your older son will serve your younger son."​

The very little evidence I've presented so far makes this nothing but emotionally charged, highly subjective conjecture. Which you are certainly entitled. ;)

If you want to talk about this nonsense, go make your own thread. Don't derail this one.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I specifically answered one of the questions asked in the OP. You are the one who decided to get involved in something you obviously are not ready for. ;)

I asked if you were espousing British Israelism in order to be sure if you were or were not. Now that I know you believe such things, I'm really not interested in talking to a racist, especially about God which is a subject that a racist wouldn't know much about.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I asked if you were espousing British Israelism in order to be sure if you were or were not. Now that I know you believe such things, I'm really not interested in talking to a racist,

No problem. My current African, Jewish, Chinese, and Philippine friends will get a good chuckle when I quote your accusation :)

especially about God which is a subject that a racist wouldn't know much about.

A quick search of my username in this forum would produce even more laughs...:yes:
 
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