Questions regarding Surah At-Tariq verse 4-6

[Corthos]

The point of this thread is to gain deeper understanding in verses 4-6 of the 86th Surah (At-Tariq). There are some controversies on this forum surrounding these verses, so I'd like to go over them thoroughly. =) Here are two different translations that give vastly different explanations... (http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Yusuf Ali: (4) Now let man but think from what he is created! (5) He is created from a drop emitted― (6) Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Pickthal: (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Now, even though the verse itself doesn't say "semen" outright (in fact, some translations say "water"), it seems that the verses are describing semen; after all, what other liquid ejecting from a person's body creates people?

The problem is that the ejaculatory duct is found in the pelvis (bellow the bladder), and some translations say that this liquid comes from between the ribs and the backbone. Other translations say that the liquid comes from between between the ribs and the loins; depending on the meaning of the word "loins" this could have vastly different implications (one area being along the spine, the other being down by the sexual organs).

So I guess my first questions are, "Is the Arabic word for 'loins' and 'spine' really the same word," and "What specifically are the word's meanings?" =/

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, by the way, I believe these are the verses in Arabic?

إِن كُلُّ نَفۡسٍ۬ لَّمَّا عَلَيۡہَا حَافِظٌ۬ (٤) فَلۡيَنظُرِ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (٥) خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ۬ دَافِقٍ۬ (٦)

 

[DawudTalut]

The point of this thread is to gain deeper understanding in verses 4-6 of the 86th Surah (At-Tariq). There are some controversies on this forum surrounding these verses, so I'd like to go over them thoroughly. =) Here are two different translations that give vastly different explanations... (http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Yusuf Ali: (4) Now let man but think from what he is created! (5) He is created from a drop emitted― (6) Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Pickthal: (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Now, even though the verse itself doesn't say "semen" outright (in fact, some translations say "water"), it seems that the verses are describing semen; after all, what other liquid ejecting from a person's body creates people?

The problem is that the ejaculatory duct is found in the pelvis (bellow the bladder), and some translations say that this liquid comes from between the ribs and the backbone. Other translations say that the liquid comes from between between the ribs and the loins; depending on the meaning of the word "loins" this could have vastly different implications (one area being along the spine, the other being down by the sexual organs).

So I guess my first questions are, "Is the Arabic word for 'loins' and 'spine' really the same word," and "What specifically are the word's meanings?" =/

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, by the way, I believe these are the verses in Arabic?

إِن كُلُّ نَفۡسٍ۬ لَّمَّا عَلَيۡہَا حَافِظٌ۬ (٤) فَلۡيَنظُرِ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (٥) خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ۬ دَافِقٍ۬ (٦)

Peace be on you.

Please read note 3318A

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1252&region=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2


pages 104 and 486 @

https://www.alislam.org/quran/dictionary/dictionary_quran.pdf



You can have additional enlightenment @
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loin#Society_and_culture

 

[Corthos]

Peace be on you.

Please read note 3318A

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1252&region=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2


pages 104 and 486 @

https://www.alislam.org/quran/dictionary/dictionary_quran.pdf



You can have additional enlightenment @
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loin#Society_and_culture

Oh! Thanks. =)

So according to that dictionary, "ribs" more specifically means:

"Breastbones; four ribs of the right side of the chest and four of
the left thereof; uppermost parts of the human breast beneath
the chin."

However, the other word (the word in question) CAN mean either:

"The back-bone; a portion of the back;any portion of the back containing vertebrae loins; the back" or "He has sprung from the
loins of such a one i.e. is his offspring"

Hmm... What's interesting is that "ribs" references the verse in question, while the explanation for "backbone" ALSO references that same verse. The "sexual organs" explanation is instead referenced in this verse: "That are from your loins (4:24)." Honestly, the later explanation for the word does make more sense from a logical perspective, but if that was the intention, then why wasn't that description used in reference for that verse? In fact, the backbone description was used instead. =/

I can't say your post has helped much in clarifying the issue, unfortunately. XD

 

[Rival]

I believe the Ancient Greeks thought that sperm originated from 'Somewhere between the backbone and the ribs'. I think the author of the Quran may have taken it from there.

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on all....

[86:8] Which issues forth from between the loins and the breast-bones.

== From right to left, the forth word is صلب,
To see discussion about it, please see:

2nd last paragraph @ page 1713 @ http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
It says: "صليبة الرجل He who was, or those who were in the loins (صلب) of the father [or ancestor] of the man......"

== From right to left the last word @ page 301, right column, @ http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
It mentions breats-bones

== Use of word 'loin' @ Society and culture @
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loin#Society_and_culture


Holy Quran is mentioning a broader subject:
Please read Note 4674-A

Ref:https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=2804&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

Good wishes.

 

[firedragon]

Here you go.

Alright. I will take this sperm problematic verse. Please you must also understand that always there are many of us here who just post stuff without any kind of analysis. Only when they have been countered they go look stuff up and return with the most common and widespread exegesis done by not language experts and scholars but simply, hate sites.

First thing about this verse is that it does not say Sperm. I so far have not come across a single translation of the Quran that says sperm, maybe there are and if you can find one, please tell me. I am a Muslim and it is my life's work to study them, and I do. I believe only with all humility that I have gone through (to say the least) through every translation I could find and their logic. There are some interpretations that are shunned by the so called "main stream" Islamic scholars even if they are also painstakingly done by highly qualified scholars, maybe more qualified in language than those self appointed Mullahs and Maulas. Also, this happens vise versa.

Anyways, let me not get carried away.

There has been many many views on this verse.
86:6 He was created from a water/liquid that spurts forth.

Mimmaain (Min Maain) means from a water or liquid. It does not mean sperm which I seriously don't know the origin of. Where in the world did that come from? That's why I was asking repeatedly. Nevertheless, Sperm is Nutfa.

36:77 Has the human being not seen that We have created him from a seed/sperm

The English word is derived (I am no English scholar) from the Greek word Sperma which is used in the bible to refer to Gods seed as well.
"Those who are born of God will not continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them" in the first epistle of John (TNIV).

A liquid ejected coming from between the backbone/spine (Sulbi) and the ribs (Taraib).

Sperm is made in the testes. Semen is a mixture. (news-medical.net)

The semen travels through the ejaculatory ducts and mixes with fluids from the seminal vesicles, the prostrate, and the bulbourethral glands.

The seminal vesicles produce a viscous, fructose-rich fluid forming around 65-70% of the semen base.

The white color of the semen is due to secretion from the prostate glands containing enzymes, citric acid, lipids, and acid phosphatase. This forms around 25-30% of the semen base.

At each ejaculation around 200-500 million sperms are released by the testes. This forms about 2-5% of the semen composition.

Apart from these, the bulbourethral glands produce a clear secretion. This helps in mobility of the sperm cells in the vagina and cervix. The glands’ secretion contribute less than 1% to the overall semen composition.

The semen comprises of:

• fructose
• ascorbic acid
• zinc
• cholesterol
• protein
• calcium
• chlorine
• blood group antigens
• citric acid
• DNA
• Magnesium
• vitamin B12
• phosphorus
• sodium
• potassium
• uric acid
• lactic acid
• nitrogen
• other nutrients

Semen per ejaculation
Ejaculation is a complex process and the compositions of the final semen come together in the posterior urethra and only become mixed after ejaculation is complete.

The volume of semen released per ejaculate varies. Approximately an average around 3.4 milliliters is ejaculated at one time. It can be as high as 4.99 milliliters or as low as 2.3 milliliters.

If there is a prolonged gap between ejaculations, the number of sperm in the semen increases but there is no overall increase in the semen.

Reviewed by April Cashin-Garbutt, BA Hons (Cantab)

Sources

1. http://www.cysonline.org/temp/ChronYoungSci1330-7548606_205806.pdf
2. http://www.urologyhealth.org/content/moreinfo/pe.pdf
3. http://www.infertilityeducation.org/pdf/Semen Analysis.pdf
4. ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf

The analysis is this.

Sperm is only a small part of the Semen. Sperm is only 2-5% of the Semen, and bubourethral glands produce less than 1%, the rest is manufactured in the Seminal Vesicle (65–75%) and Prostate (25–30%).

This is the theory of the liquid that the Quran is speaking of. Not the sperm (Nutfa).
The word used here for ejected is Dhafikin, used also for vasectomy.

If you search for images of any of the above you will see where are.

 

[firedragon]

The word salaba has been used many times in the Quran. But in this context it could mean Loins as well as backbone. In the Quran it has been used as both.

Another way of saying it is the physical Sulbi, the backbone. The strength of the body perhaps. The backbone or the spine is the strength of the human being. Silabathun is to erect a structure that gives strength. It is the center of a sheet of paper, not the corner. When you refer to children it will mean loins. When you say "Children of your loins" it means your biological children (Aslaabikum). That is because the mans seed is held and comes from the Sulb when you study classical Arabic. This is why the word has two meanings as the backbone and loins.

Remember the same word is used for crucifying. Wama Salaboohoo (Salab).

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

The point of this thread is to gain deeper understanding in verses 4-6 of the 86th Surah (At-Tariq). There are some controversies on this forum surrounding these verses, so I'd like to go over them thoroughly. =) Here are two different translations that give vastly different explanations... (http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Yusuf Ali: (4) Now let man but think from what he is created! (5) He is created from a drop emitted― (6) Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Pickthal: (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Now, even though the verse itself doesn't say "semen" outright (in fact, some translations say "water"), it seems that the verses are describing semen; after all, what other liquid ejecting from a person's body creates people?

The problem is that the ejaculatory duct is found in the pelvis (bellow the bladder), and some translations say that this liquid comes from between the ribs and the backbone. Other translations say that the liquid comes from between between the ribs and the loins; depending on the meaning of the word "loins" this could have vastly different implications (one area being along the spine, the other being down by the sexual organs).

So I guess my first questions are, "Is the Arabic word for 'loins' and 'spine' really the same word," and "What specifically are the word's meanings?" =/

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, by the way, I believe these are the verses in Arabic?

إِن كُلُّ نَفۡسٍ۬ لَّمَّا عَلَيۡہَا حَافِظٌ۬ (٤) فَلۡيَنظُرِ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (٥) خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ۬ دَافِقٍ۬ (٦)

Semen and Sperm are completely different things. In semen, you get 3% sperm. Max 5%. Semen as I said already comes from the prostate glands and seminal vesicle. These are not close to the testes, they are above, between the loins and the ribs. If the Quran wants to say Sperm it would have said it. To say Maain instead of Nutfa is a different matter.

The thing with us men is when anyone says Semen or Sperm, its the same and we only think of the testes. Errm, that didnt sound right but I dont know how else to put it.

 

[firedragon]

I believe the Ancient Greeks thought that sperm originated from 'Somewhere between the backbone and the ribs'. I think the author of the Quran may have taken it from there.

You believe ancient greeks though sperm originated..........

1. Ancient Greek thing is the most common layman excuse used by so many its just unbelievable. Its like a plug and play solution in the effort to debunk the Quran. Seems like Muhammed has taken from all Greeks who ever wrote about any advancement. Muhammed must have been a computerised genius to pick the correct ones only avoiding all the errors by the same Greeks, out of about 100 Greek philosophers. Now people have started to believe and think that Greeks are the source, if there are no other sources to quote, like bible, Gnostic documents, hearsay and cooking up.
2. The Quran in this verse does not say sperm, so its not even closely relevant.

 

[Rival]

You believe ancient greeks though sperm originated..........

1. Ancient Greek thing is the most common layman excuse used by so many its just unbelievable. Its like a plug and play solution in the effort to debunk the Quran. Seems like Muhammed has taken from all Greeks who ever wrote about any advancement. Muhammed must have been a computerised genius to pick the correct ones only avoiding all the errors by the same Greeks, out of about 100 Greek philosophers. Now people have started to believe and think that Greeks are the source, if there are no other sources to quote, like bible, Gnostic documents, hearsay and cooking up.
2. The Quran in this verse does not say sperm, so its not even closely relevant.

If you insist

 

[Aquitaine]

I believe the Ancient Greeks thought that sperm originated from 'Somewhere between the backbone and the ribs'. I think the author of the Quran may have taken it from there.

I have heard that the authors of the Quran also plagiarized some of the works of Hippocrates/Galen, primarily in relation to Embryology. I should investigate more in to said claims and see what I find.

Semen and Sperm are completely different things. In semen, you get 3% sperm. Max 5%. Semen as I said already comes from the prostate glands and seminal vesicle. These are not close to the testes, they are above, between the loins and the ribs. If the Quran wants to say Sperm it would have said it. To say Maain instead of Nutfa is a different matter.

The thing with us men is when anyone says Semen or Sperm, its the same and we only think of the testes. Errm, that didnt sound right but I dont know how else to put it.

@firedragon
No translation appears to say "Semen" either, if the Quran wanted to say Semen it would have. . . . .

If you insist

I don't know what is more bizarre: that some muslims are suspicious of claims that the Quran was plagiarized, or that they are willing to believe an illiterate cave-dweller was visited by angels and magically acquired knowledge through the forceful reading of a special book "written" by an omnipotent deity.

I mean really, what is more likely?

 

[firedragon]

No translation appears to say "Semen" either, if the Quran wanted to say Semen it would have. . . . .

Errm. Did I say that it means Semen?

It was a refutation of those who say Sperm. I was asking them where did you get that from? It is not from the Quran nor is it from any translation.

 

[Augustus]

I mean really, what is more likely?

Given that I don't consider it 'plagiarised' then I suppose it must be from God.

Unless it is possible that there really are more than 2 possibilities. Could this, in fact, be the case?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe the Ancient Greeks thought that sperm originated from 'Somewhere between the backbone and the ribs'.

A reliable source could really help and give a clear view.

 

[Rival]

A reliable source could really help and give a clear view.

It was a Greek bloke called Galen, who did a treatsie called 'On Semen' (or sperm). I believe the Jews had similar ideas but I may be wrong here.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It was a Greek bloke called Galen, who did a treatsie called 'On Semen' (or sperm). I believe the Jews had similar ideas but I may be wrong here.

Hmm... okay, thanks

 

[Muffled]

The point of this thread is to gain deeper understanding in verses 4-6 of the 86th Surah (At-Tariq). There are some controversies on this forum surrounding these verses, so I'd like to go over them thoroughly. =) Here are two different translations that give vastly different explanations... (http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Yusuf Ali: (4) Now let man but think from what he is created! (5) He is created from a drop emitted― (6) Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Pickthal: (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Now, even though the verse itself doesn't say "semen" outright (in fact, some translations say "water"), it seems that the verses are describing semen; after all, what other liquid ejecting from a person's body creates people?

The problem is that the ejaculatory duct is found in the pelvis (bellow the bladder), and some translations say that this liquid comes from between the ribs and the backbone. Other translations say that the liquid comes from between between the ribs and the loins; depending on the meaning of the word "loins" this could have vastly different implications (one area being along the spine, the other being down by the sexual organs).

So I guess my first questions are, "Is the Arabic word for 'loins' and 'spine' really the same word," and "What specifically are the word's meanings?" =/

Thanks!

Edit: Oh, by the way, I believe these are the verses in Arabic?

إِن كُلُّ نَفۡسٍ۬ لَّمَّا عَلَيۡہَا حَافِظٌ۬ (٤) فَلۡيَنظُرِ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (٥) خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ۬ دَافِقٍ۬ (٦)

I believe when I first read the Qu'ran it was the Saudi version and it said "blood clot."

I believe the creation of man refers to Adam and Eve not to mankind in general. My belief is that the man was cloned from DNA found in an old bone in the earth. (Hence the Biblical statement that man was created from the earth) Eve was created by cloning blood taken from a rib of Adam. The gods take credit for this as well as God but my guess is that the gods did the actual work with the higher technical knowledge that made them gods and why they referred to their creation as man instead of themselves. So for me it makes more sense that it was a blood clot rather than fluid because blood would not retain fluidity in the ground for who knows how long.

 

[firedragon]

I believe when I first read the Qu'ran it was the Saudi version and it said "blood clot."

I believe the creation of man refers to Adam and Eve not to mankind in general. My belief is that the man was cloned from DNA found in an old bone in the earth. (Hence the Biblical statement that man was created from the earth) Eve was created by cloning blood taken from a rib of Adam. The gods take credit for this as well as God but my guess is that the gods did the actual work with the higher technical knowledge that made them gods and why they referred to their creation as man instead of themselves. So for me it makes more sense that it was a blood clot rather than fluid because blood would not retain fluidity in the ground for who knows how long.

Saudi version said blood clot?

 

[Muffled]

Saudi version said blood clot?

To the best of my memory but it might not have been in the translation but in the commentary which I often felt wasn't anywhere near the true meanings.

 

[Aquitaine]

Given that I don't consider it 'plagiarised' then I suppose it must be from God.

Unless it is possible that there really are more than 2 possibilities. Could this, in fact, be the case?

If the "science" in the Quran wasn't imported in/plagiarized then what is your alternative possibility?