What a certain phrase means in a document of law or contract or rights often needs clarification from a lawyer (multiple questions about that phrase can be asked).
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Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.
- Thread starter stevecanuck
- Start date
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That is true. The difference is that man-made laws are not created by an all-knowing and perfect god who has declared said laws to the "clear" and "explained in detail". The entire point of the Qur'an is to create and define Islam. Allah claims to have done just that several times, but you don't believe him. It's not going to go well for you.
It's due to limits of language and infinite ways of misunderstanding by the mind. Coupled with dark magic from Iblis that ****s up our understanding, we need them to clarify and guide us.
Reslah /= Nubuwa. They relate and compliment each other, but two different things.
I also showed verse 5:67 to prove that. Also, Musa and Haroun were Messengers, before they received their divine scripture//book.
The book was revealed after Pharaoh and his people perished. So their role as Messengers is not the same as receiving revelation from God and just channeling that.
The Quran is not words of Mohammad (s). The message is however emphasized to be his role and his words, since, it's upon him to do that, while Quran is emphasized to be on God and nothing to do with how much Mohammad (s) clarifies and conveys the truth.
Also, Jesus was a Messenger, but his Nubuwa (Gospels) was near end of his life, after he appeared to die, revealed to his disciples, and each was given a structure of the Gospel, and the Gospels together made his Nubuwa.
So the whole time, Isa (a) was a Messenger and Gospels itself though paraphrasing his life and words are from God, are emphasizing his role as a Messenger before channeling his Nubuwa.
Gospels came at the end of his life while his message was through out his life. And his Nubuwa and disciples reliability, especially that of Simon (a), was important.
The Gospels from God also show the high piety of his disciples, though they remain possibly able to deviate, they were much higher in piety then others. And were a reliable means.
All this is for a reason.
I also showed verse 5:67 to prove that. Also, Musa and Haroun were Messengers, before they received their divine scripture//book.
The book was revealed after Pharaoh and his people perished. So their role as Messengers is not the same as receiving revelation from God and just channeling that.
The Quran is not words of Mohammad (s). The message is however emphasized to be his role and his words, since, it's upon him to do that, while Quran is emphasized to be on God and nothing to do with how much Mohammad (s) clarifies and conveys the truth.
Also, Jesus was a Messenger, but his Nubuwa (Gospels) was near end of his life, after he appeared to die, revealed to his disciples, and each was given a structure of the Gospel, and the Gospels together made his Nubuwa.
So the whole time, Isa (a) was a Messenger and Gospels itself though paraphrasing his life and words are from God, are emphasizing his role as a Messenger before channeling his Nubuwa.
Gospels came at the end of his life while his message was through out his life. And his Nubuwa and disciples reliability, especially that of Simon (a), was important.
The Gospels from God also show the high piety of his disciples, though they remain possibly able to deviate, they were much higher in piety then others. And were a reliable means.
All this is for a reason.
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That's interesting. You are suggesting that Allah doesn't know how to use language to get his point across to beings that He created and therefore should know how to communicate with. That's not much of a god you have if that's the case.
How do you know that Iblis isn't twisting the hadiths?
(1) Yes, but this is limits due to just the nature of language, just like he can't create us as God nor make us reach greatness without free-will, this is just the nature of language. Of course, God could have continued Nubuwa, and be constantly communicating till now, but to end Nubuwa, there needs to be leaders and messengers who clarify the revelation or else deviation will happen.
(2) Iblis does twist hadiths, this is why Quran emphasizes that he does this to Messengers as well, he does this to Anbiya, both, none of them were free from his cast regarding what they wished for their community. And hard hearts per Quran take God's words of out their place and don't see the context. So this is why as well as Quran and hadiths, we need to cry a lot to understand both. Sorrow and sadness and crying are a means of reflecting properly and a way to knowledge, just as Jacob (a) was praised for it and it being a level of knowledge (his sorrow) that the world was deprived of and he was raised above them in.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That's another interesting claim. You are now saying that Allah's message is potentially unclear because of "the nature of language". Okay, so what has Mohamed figured out in terms of language in hadiths that Allah was unable to? Why aren't hadiths and tafsirs subject to the same limitations? No matter how you try to make excuses, the bottom line still is, and always will be, that Allah FAILED in his 6,236 attempts to give Mankind the admonition that he thinks He delivered.
That was utterly meaningless. Must be Iblis working his dark magic again.
Mohanmmad (s) can't do the impossible. He has a knot on his tongue, Ali (a) relived the constriction on Mohammad's (s) heart in the sense of being gate of knowledge and being able to say things Mohammad (s) due to ignorance of people could not, but even Ali (a) can't do the impossible. The impossible per Quran is making deaf hear, guiding who is stubborn in misguidance.
They can't.
The hadiths help, but they aren't themselves sufficient. Believers per hadiths have to talk about hadiths with each other, because, the hadiths are hard to understand unless they do that.
So believers teaching is also part of it.
But who are true believers, to people lost and deceive themselves, they pick that.
So you are over-simplifying a complex thing.
Quran calls believers to help the cause of God as well for some to learn the religion and go back to their people with warning them. Yet we have all sorts of sects with scholars claiming to believers and seeing each other as heretics.
Like I said, tears for God are needed, and tears for Yusuf (a) by Jacob (a) were tears for God, and his tears for God was compassion for humanity.
Quran expresses limit of God "how can God guide a people who disbelieved after witnessing the Messenger to be true/truth?".
Quran is a revelation, it's a sign from God, higher then all speech, but at the end, it's but a reminder full of reminders and proofs, but it's up people how they approach it.
The Messengers after the seal of Prophets, don't have speech from God complimenting them like previous nations.
The reason God put at end to Nubuwa, is because we are reaching finality, and he wish to preserve unity on what consists of the final revelation. With the injustice Ahlulbayt (a) faced, if they were Prophets, then Quran will lose it's status, because they would have revelations on par with it, but people would not accept it, and this division and disagreement, would not lead to the prestige the Quran has in terms of eloquence and miracle.
Mohammad (s) said most of hypocrites are among the reciters of Quran. The Quran is magnified by them in terms of how it sounds, rhymes, and eloquent features, but its exalted nature is hidden from them, while not so for believers. Believers witness Quran at higher level, and experience it's magical effects in healing them and augmenting them in insights and light.
The Quran has been since killing of Imam Hussain (a) severely distorted in interpretation and Sunnah so many fabrications that are against core concepts of justice all humans have.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
No, you are complicating a very simple thing. Allah described the religion of Islam in the Qur'an. We know this because He says so in the most clear of manners possible (I gave you many examples of Him saying just that). For some reason, you think He failed to get His points across. I'll leave your god to discuss that with you. I don't like your chances of convincing Him.
Let me stop you right there. Based on everything you've said, I won't be accepting only quotes from the Quran from you. You must back up your assertions by providing hadiths that explain what your poor, muddled god failed to make clear. Just giving quotes from the Qur'an would be, in your own words, "over-simplifying a complex thing".
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Obviously you don't know a rhetorical question when you see one. That's not a limitation, it's anger at unbelievers. Read it again.
Btw, you just said that Allah is limited. That goes against absolutely EVERYTHING the Qur'an says. Maybe you should stop.
You're flailing around in the dark now. Please tell us how it is possible to explain something that is "higher than all speech". That literally means that no explanation can surpass what Allah has said in the Qur'an. Your display of convoluted logic only goes to prove your desperation to make sense of an untenable position.
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JerryMyers
Active Member
Are you asking me that because YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster???
Only a comedian who’s incapable to think logically and rationally will believe in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. That would be you.
I suspect you became a comedian to **** your old man off!!
It's his frustration on how impossible it is to guide a certain type of people.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what I said. What about the rest of my post?
Please tell us how it is possible to explain something that is "higher than all speech". That literally means that no explanation can surpass what Allah said in the Qur'an.
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Reason can't blindly follow. If Quran was written explicit in Salah details, I wouldn't have found the inward disciplines and reasoning of each component of Salah. So Sunnah and Quran complimenting each other both in a clear way together according to our knowledge capacity, is the nature of endless guidance.
Show the details of Salah explicitly in Quran, you can't. The Sunnah is explicit in the details while Quran is not. The Quran however contains all the inward reasons and some hadiths help see that too.
God's highest speech is calculated that his Messenger will complement the Quran with a message. As I said 5:67 shows a certain thing had to be delivered or the message would not be delivered. To say deliver Quran, if you don't deliver Quran, you have not delivered Quran is a non-sensical statement. So this shows something vital in the hadiths need to be searched for per Quran to understand Quran and message.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
5:67 - O Messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people.
"A certain thing"??? Are you kidding? There are dozens of verses that refer to "what has been revealed to you from your lord", and that "certain thing" is the ALWAYS the Qur'an. That verse in no way suggests additional explanation is expected or needed. You dig your illogic hole deeper with every post.
REveal quran, so if you don't reveal Quran, you have not revealed Quran, is a meaningless statement. Try again.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Tell it to Allah. He's the one who said it.
I don't tell God what Quran means, I learn from God and the firmly rooted in knowledge, his Messengers.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Verse 5:67 is simply telling Mohamed to preach the Qur'an and not to be afraid because Allah will protect him from "the people". For you to extrapolate that to mean anything more is absurd.
You are being obtuse.