Quran is free of errors

[darkendless]

Nice , 'my main man'.



Would you say that scientist of today know 'slightly' more than scientist a couple of hundreds years ago? And these are humans we are talking about. This in mind, why do you refute Qur'anic verses (as evidence) that come from a Perfect source?

Peace be upon you.

Gnostic isn't Islamic, to anyone but muslims Quranic scripture is a waste of paper.

The point a lot of us are trying to get at, is, if the Quran is full of scientific miracles, then muslims should have known 1400 years ago. But now that non-muslims are making discoveries, you're claiming that the Quran found them 1400 years ago. However, if the Quran found them 1400 years ago, we'd have known about it 1400 years ago, and not 300 years ago. So what scholars are doing is making the Quran fit to science. There is no merit in that.

 

[Ghostaka]

Gnostic isn't Islamic, to anyone but muslims Quranic scripture is a waste of paper.

The point a lot of us are trying to get at, is, if the Quran is full of scientific miracles, then muslims should have known 1400 years ago. But now that non-muslims are making discoveries, you're claiming that the Quran found them 1400 years ago. However, if the Quran found them 1400 years ago, we'd have known about it 1400 years ago, and not 300 years ago. So what scholars are doing is making the Quran fit to science. There is no merit in that.

*Sorry my buddy I edited my comment as you were writing yours. But I will answer your question anyhow.

You missed it. People at that time could not possible have found out! What are you saying? "to anyone but muslims" - why are you speaking for every non-Muslim in the world?

Anyway that's beside the point. What I'm saying is, you yourself agree that there are things in the Quran that Allah revealed - 1400+ years ago - which have proven to be true (only just verified by modern discoveries - I get it - okay). But what does that say about the source of the Qur'an? Because now you know that it had been true since that time; it did not just suddenly become true!

Peace be upon you.

 

[darkendless]

*Sorry my buddy I edited my comment as you were writing yours. But I will answer your question anyhow.

You missed it. People at that time could not possible have found out! What are you saying? "to anyone but muslims" - why are you speaking for every non-Muslim in the world?

Anyway that's beside the point. What I'm saying is, you yourself agree that there are things in the Quran that Allah revealed - 1400+ years ago - which have proven to be true (only just verified by modern discoveries - I get it - okay). But what does that say about the source of the Qur'an?

Peace be upon you.

I'm saying that i can see where scholars made the connection. However, in saying that, the verses i've seen could mean a number of things. It seems somehow all to convenient that they've chosen science. I vehemently disagree that they are miracles. I am saying that i think it is silly that scholars are trying to do such a thing. If i were a muslim, i'd be concerned that the words of the Quran were being exploited to mean something Muhammed did not intend them to mean.

I think perhaps the Quran could lose some of its meaning if the meaning of the scripture as passed down by Allah is constantly being redefined when there wasn't a lot wrong with the original words. The message remains the same. How do scholars know that it is Allahs intention to change the words of his book?

 

[Ghostaka]

I'm saying that i can see where scholars made the connection. However, in saying that, the verses i've seen could mean a number of things. It seems somehow all to convenient that they've chosen science. I vehemently disagree that they are miracles. I am saying that i think it is silly that scholars are trying to do such a thing. If i were a muslim, i'd be concerned that the words of the Quran were being exploited to mean something Muhammed did not intend them to mean.

I think perhaps the Quran could lose some of its meaning if the meaning of the scripture as passed down by Allah is constantly being redefined when there wasn't a lot wrong with the original words. The message remains the same. How do scholars know that it is Allahs intention to change the words of his book?

Where are you getting this? The Qur'an has remained untouched since it was written; not as if Allah would allow it to be.

Allah mentions in the Qur'an (never before in the Torah or Injeel):

Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, {The Holy Quran 15:10}

You completely ignored my previous post.

Peace be upon you.

 

[darkendless]

Where are you getting this? The Qur'an has remained untouched since it was written; not as if Allah would allow it to be.

Allah mentions in the Qur'an (never before in the Torah or Injeel):

Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, {The Holy Quran 15:10}

You completely ignored my previous post.

Peace be upon you.

Then why are scientific miracles being discovered in the Quran? That is changing the intended meaning of the scripture. Its not like these particular verses have been ignored for 1400 years. What is changing is the meaning of the scripture because im sure for the past 1400 years, the same verses meant something else, or were in reference to something else.

I am not saying the Quran was rewritten, i'm saying new meanings for the same scripture are being found. Is this untrue?

 

[Ghostaka]

Then why are scientific miracles being discovered in the Quran? That is changing the intended meaning of the scripture. Its not like these particular verses have been ignored for 1400 years. What is changing is the meaning of the scripture because im sure for the past 1400 years, the same verses meant something else, or were in reference to something else.

I am not saying the Quran was rewritten, i'm saying new meanings for the same scripture are being found. Is this untrue?

Basically, it is a new reason why Islam, the Qur'an's authenticity and Allah are not false. The scientific miracles are being discovered now. The Qur'an isn't "making" the discoveries. The scientists of today are.

The medical/biological references in the Qur'an are being named Miracles now because modern science has only recently discovered that those same references (which were revealed in the past) coincide with their findings. This means to say that 'advanced' knowledge had been revealed 1400+ years ago in the Qur'an. The existence of this 'advanced' knowledge so long ago in the past shows that it could only been have revealed by one Supreme; Allah.

Since the Qur'an was revealed through Muhammad (PBUH), some non-muslims say that our prophet made up the revelation. This blatantly (by viewpoint of a Muslim) false claim is disproved because medical references were revealed within the Qur'an; which could have never been concocted because there was no human knowledge (or scientific research of that level?) at that time on such a subject (re: embryo dev.). Be realistic is my response if you think it was just good imagination. I reiterate this, such knowledge could only come from a source that knew this; Allah is the All Knower and is free of imperfection.

Muslim scientists contributed to science later on but also never made the discovery of embryo development for example. They read it in the Qur'an everyday... but they did not prove it because medical research was not as advanced. It was only recently that people/scientist (thanks to advances in technology) are able to verify that what the Qur'an mentioned 1400+ years ago is TRUE (scientifically).

And since you depend on science for your proof/evidence, the Muslims (and I speak for myself) propose this as undeniable evidence that Allah revealed the Qur'an, and He is the only One worthy to be worshiped.

If you cannot realize that this is a clear sign from Allah then I don't know what will cause you to do so (you might have misunderstood me along the way).

I have tried to be clear as possible. I hope I was successful in clarifying this matter to you (as I still need my beauty sleep lol ).

Peace be upon you.

 

[McBell]

Basically, it is a new reason why Islam, the Qur'an's authenticity and Allah are not false. The scientific miracles are not being discovered now. The Qur'an is not making the discoveries. The scientist of today are.

The medical/biological references in the Qur'an are being named Miracles now because modern science has only recently discovered that those same references (which were revealed in the past) coincide with their findings. This means to say that 'advanced' knowledge had been revealed 1400+ years ago in the Qur'an. The existence of this 'advanced' knowledge so long ago in the past shows that it could only been have revealed by one Supreme; Allah.

Since the Qur'an was revealed through Muhammad (PBUH), some non-muslims say that our prophet made up the revelation. But is disproved because medical references were revealed as well; which could have never been concocted because there was no scientific research (of that level?) at that time.

Muslim scientists contributed to science later on but also never made the discovery of e.g. embryo development for example. They read it in the Qur'an everyday... but they did not prove it because medical research was not as advanced. It was only recently that people/scientist verified that what the Qur'an mentioned 1400+ years ago is TRUE.

And since you depend on science for proof/evidence, the Muslims (and I speak for myself) propose this as undeniable evidence that Allah revealed the Qur'an, and He is the only One worthy to be worshiped.

If you cannot realize that this is a clear sign from Allah then I don't know what will cause you to do so (you might have misunderstood me along the way).

I have tried to be clear as possible. I hope I was successful in clarifying this matter to you (as I still need my beauty sleep lol ).

Peace be upon you.

Interesting.

Can you explain it again only without relying on the Forer Effect?

 

[Ghostaka]

Interesting.

Can you explain it again only without relying on the Forer Effect?

Lol,is that all you have to say? Or is it just a momentary blank before you start making sh--stuff up?

Accept it as it is, or not at all.

Peace be upon you my friend.

edit: Wow either I'm too much of a perfectionist /my Internet is slow or my friends are replying too quickly today. Sorry I edited my previous comment slightly while/after your were replying.

 

[gnostic]

but just for a minute... think that it is true and Allah exists. Do you accept that His knowledge is infinitely more than humans can comprehend (and is free from imperfection)?

From the number of quotes that Muslims here have quoted, and interpreted as being scientific, I would say :no:, Allah does not have infinite knowledge, because the Qur'an is poorly written if you think it is scientific. The Qur'an don't come as close to explaining the astronomy or even earth science; it's crude and uninformative, and the verses are certainly imperfect.

 

[Ghostaka]

From the number of quotes that Muslims here have quoted, and interpreted as being scientific, I would say :no:, Allah does not have infinite knowledge, because the Qur'an is poorly written if you think it is scientific. The Qur'an don't come as close to explaining the astronomy or even earth science; it's crude and uninformative, and the verses are certainly imperfect.

You haven't been listening (or reading, rather). The Qur'an's function is NOT to be a science book. You undoubtedly should know that by now. It serves as a CLEAR MESSAGE, GUIDANCE and WARNING to the world's people. It has references to science AS A CLEAR SIGN not for explanation but for the purpose which is in my previous post!

Your reason for Allah not having infinite knowledge is infact poor. Does Allah have to pour all His Knowledge in to that Qur'an so that you can accept it and Him? Please.

My brothers are quoting Qur'anic verses to you because it is you that has this unconditional need for proof even though it has been made clear to you, time and time again.

You are choosing not to accept it only by your choice and not because "it isn't good enough" or "its a poorly written science book".

Swallow your pride.

Peace be upon you.

 

[JMorris]

lol, funny thread.......

 

[gnostic]

You haven't been listening (or reading, rather). The Qur'an's function is NOT to be a science book. You undoubtedly should know that by now.

It serves as a CLEAR MESSAGE, GUIDANCE and WARNING to the world's people.

As a message, it's hardly clear. As a guidance, it the Qur'an is worthless scientifically.

It has references to science AS A CLEAR SIGN not for explanation but for the purpose which is in my previous post!

As a sign is hopelessly inaccurate and imperfect.

Your reason for Allah not having infinite knowledge is infact poor.

Well, if Allah has infinite knowledge than he wouldn't use inaccurate message and .

Only the ignorants would believe that Allah created the stars to keep away the djinns from heaven; it's worse than sci-fi novels. Only the ignorants would think that the stars were created in heaven. Only the ignorants would think that Allah created the earth and heaven in just a few days. And only the ignorants think the sun orbits around the earth. The silly verses that you can find, where the Qur'an compare the sun to a lamp and earth as a carpet, showed how inaccurate the Qur'an and Allah's are.

Then there's silly verses about Solomon who could command an army of birds and djinns, and even speak to ants. Do your God like creating nonsensical fables?

And all of these claims come from the Qur'an. If that Allah's idea of infinite knowledge, then God don't know a single thing about how the world or universe work.

The Qur'an is not free of errors. The Qur'an is full of errors.

 

[Ghostaka]

As a message, it's hardly clear. As a guidance, it the Qur'an is worthless scientifically.

You took my mention of "Guidance" incorrectly. Guidance as in the Criterion as well as social conduct .e.g Charity, Equality etc. Not 'science 101'.

As a sign is hopelessly inaccurate and imperfect.

"Hopelessly innacurate" to people that have excess pride and chose act like they do not understand. And I mean you in particular.

Well, if Allah has infinite knowledge than he wouldn't use inaccurate message and
***
Then there's silly verses about Solomon who could command an army of birds and djinns, and even speak to ants. Do your God like creating nonsensical fables?

Silly to who? Where are your statistics on the percentage of the worlds population that think it's silly? If you think that everything is silly and can't take things seriously then you mustn't have matured yet my friend.

And all of these claims come from the Qur'an. If that Allah's idea of infinite knowledge, then God don't know a single thing about how the world or universe work.

And you do I suppose? You cannot seriously expect me to believe that humans do.

The Qur'an is not free of errors. The Qur'an is full of errors.

You are starting to sound like a child backed into a corner; trying to lash out by changing the subject. I just (if I say so my self) clearly explained what the significance of seen scientific references in the Qur'an and you acted as if I never told you anything. You know what that reminds me of?

And when a messenger from Allāh came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allāh behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].{The Holy Qur'an 2:101}

P.S. Do not mistake quote as referring to myself. I cannot amount to be a Messenger no matter what. Oh wait... does the verse above have any "inaccuracies" as well?

Peace be upon.

 

[Ghostaka]

Stop this quarreling man.

It is the work of the devil... since Allah warns us: O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. {The Holy Qur'an 2:168}

He only orders you to evil and immorality and to say about Allāh what you do not know. {The Holy Qur'an 2:169}

It is entirely you choice if you do not want to accept what I have to say. I am merely objecting to the reasons you provide me for not accepting. I am being unreasonable? Its up to you my friend. But do no comment about things that you do not understand/know yet.

It's like me trying to explain a surgical procedure without seeing it before. P.S. not a doctor just a weird analogy!

Sometimes you cannot say something without offending someone. I sure the same can be said for you.

Sincerely,

Peace be upon you.

 

[gnostic]

Have you even bother to visit the links that I provided?

• Why the Qur'an has no scientific values
• Verse 21:30: What do you think this mean?

It showed how inaccurate the Qur'an, and how inaccurate the Muslims who interpret the so-called messages and signs, which they led to believe to be "scientific".

All I have seen from Muslims, is that they like to twist words around in the Qur'an to mean something that take the Qur'an out of context.

Silly to who? Where are your statistics on the percentage of the worlds population that think it's silly?

What make you think that Muslims even understand the Qur'an is saying?

Tell me, is not silly that Solomon can understand the language of ants and birds? (Qur'an 27)

If you don't call that chapter "silly", then what is it?

Can you explain to me how Solomon can communicate with birds and ants? Even the book of 1 Kings, don't have anything as absurd as Solomon being able to speak and understand the languages of animals.

It is about silly as the Hebrew scripture of the talking serpent in Eden (Genesis 3).

You might as well as believe in the Old Babylonian myth about the eagle and snake in the Epic of Etana, or in Aesop's Fables.

I might as well as believe in the children story of Doctor Dolittle before I can believe the Qur'an to be any way factual or logical. Until the Qur'an has something that's accurate in any way, instead of mad ravings of god or prophet, only then I will see that you're sensible and not chasing unicorn or fairies, or ghosts and goblins.

 

[Shahzad]

Response. Yes. My modesty and my humility prevents me from saying that I know it all. But no worries, what I don't know, I don't address. But if I do mention something of the qur'an, believe me sister, it has been thoroughly researched. I know the verse he's speaking of and I haven't forgot. There's actually three of them. He thinks he has me cornered but little does he know of how much I know of the qur'an by heart. So while he's googling, I'm just sitting back and waiting to respond.

Well if you already know the verses I won't bother to quote them, you can just respond to them yourselves. I'll add this one though:

25:61

YUSUFALI: Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

So the stars, moon and sun are all in the atmosphere according to your interpretation!

Now, just for once I want you to prove something you say. Prove that the Quran is referring to atmospheric layers when it mentions the seven heavens.

 

[Shahzad]

I will only prove it by quoting the verses. Have you not noticed that I have already done so!? What kind of proof would you accept now? Don't tell me you want some scientific facts because us humans do not have enough knowledge to prove it! Allah knows best.

Wait, where have you shown that the concept of the seven heavens originated in Abrahamic scriptures using the Quran? The Quran says nothing about where this idea originated.

And no of course you can't defend Quran using the claims of the Quran, it needs to backed up with reason. You may as well defend Scientology using the claims of Scientology. I don't expect you to even consider that the Quran may be in error though.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Shahzad]Well if you already know the verses I won't bother to quote them, you can just respond to them yourselves. I'll add this one though:

25:61

YUSUFALI: Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

So the stars, moon and sun are all in the atmosphere according to your interpretation!

Now, just for once I want you to prove something you say. Prove that the Quran is referring to atmospheric layers when it mentions the seven heavens.[/QUOTE]

Response: The word "heavens" or "firaments" refer to the earth's atmosphere. We know so because when it is being used in the qur'an, it's definition is the same as the atmosphere.

 

[McBell]

Lol,is that all you have to say? Or is it just a momentary blank before you start making sh--stuff up?

Accept it as it is, or not at all.

Peace be upon you my friend.

edit: Wow either I'm too much of a perfectionist /my Internet is slow or my friends are replying too quickly today. Sorry I edited my previous comment slightly while/after your were replying.

I was actually asking you that very thing.
However, if all you have is your cookie cutter Forer Effect answer...

Furthermore, it seems to me that it is you (and fatihah and eselam) who are unable to accept it as it is.
.
Instead, you have mastered the arts of transference and projection.
Good job!

 

[Fatihah]

As I said, read Ptolemy's treatises on astronomy and astrology - Almagest and Tetrabiblos. They are my evidences. It speak at length about the stars, sun, moon and the 5 known planets of the time (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). It speak of the 7 heavens frequently.

Ptolemy's works predate Muhammad's Qur'an by several centuries, and flourished in 2nd century CE. And both treatises were well-known, both east and west.

Do you own investigation/research.

And the 7 heavens were given at length in 2 Enoch. The only surviving Slavonic manuscripts, but fragments written in Greek in the 1st century BCE and in the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls may not have anything on 7 heavens, but the Slavonic translation (translated from the Greek texts) tell of the whole story.

From chapter 1 to 30 of 2 Enoch, it speak of Enoch's journey through the 7 heavens. The chapters are very short, and even you could read 30 chapters without a problem. Read 2 Enoch here.

Look up the evidences for yourself, fatihah.

Response: That's not evidence. That's information. You are claiming that your information is what the qur'an is referring to. That is where you have no proof. You have come up with your own assertions in order to validate your point, but that does not make your point true. You simply saying that Ptolemy's work is being referred to in the qur'an does not make it true. Proving that this is the case makes it true.