Quran is free of errors

[Faded]

That depends on how intellectually dishonest you want to be.

If you want to be, then of course the whole Quran is true and everything is possible. It was discussed that to even get the atoms by themselves, Allah himself would have to supply the energy. Now thats taking a leap of faith.

I'm sorry darkendless but you're twisting or have misunderstood the what I have said.
I have never claimed the whole Koran is true, I have not even claimed this one statement under discussion is true. Infact i've often said the opposite. I have only said you do not have conclusive proof that it cannot be true.

Yes, Allah would have to supply the energy - and the mechanism or ability for precise fusion and fission and for rearranging incredibly complex atoms.

Wether allah exists and does he have the ability to do this is not what i'm discussing - Just wether or not you can make a fully living human out of what was originally clay - It would be phenomonally difficult and far beyond our technology level, but 100 years ago so was cloning a sheep.

The only thing precluding this from being a possibility is what you said on atoms retaining integrity - which i'm still hoping you'll pass me a link for so i can look it up

 

[darkendless]

I'm sorry darkendless but you're twisting or have misunderstood the what I have said.
I have never claimed the whole Koran is true, I have not even claimed this one statement under discussion is true. Infact i've often said the opposite. I have only said you do not have conclusive proof that it cannot be true.

Yes, Allah would have to supply the energy - and the mechanism or ability for precise fusion and fission and for rearranging incredibly complex atoms.

Wether allah exists and does he have the ability to do this is not what i'm discussing - Just wether or not you can make a fully living human out of what was originally clay - It would be phenomonally difficult and far beyond our technology level, but 100 years ago so was cloning a sheep.

The only thing precluding this from being a possibility is what you said on atoms retaining integrity - which i'm still hoping you'll pass me a link for so i can look it up

errr.... i guess you could search wiki, i don't have a link and im watching cricket. I remember it from school. I remember it for the whacky example our teacher gave us: You can take a kidney from a bloke and give it to another bloke, but the kidney still acts as if it were inside the bloke who's bleeding to death in an ice bath.

Composite materials are an example. Mix iron and carbon and the fundamental properties of iron are retained if not enhanced. Thermal properties and the modulus of elasticity (bending) are improved but are not indifferent to iron itself. I guess research composite materials. I've done enough research for this thread and been ignored.

 

[Faded]

Hope you dont think i've ignored any statement you have made to me? Ive tried to address everything so far but its possible I missed something?

In regards to composite materials - I dont think its always the case of retaining properties of the elements - for example:
Sodium is a silvery, soft, light metal that explodes when it becomes wet.
Chlorine is a greenish-yellow gas that is lethal when inhaled.
The compound they form is sodium chloride, or table salt.

As far as fusion/fission goes, I dont think it applies at all? I could be wrong though

 

[Faded]

Also we seem to have gotten more than a little off-topic? :sorry1:
Can anyone think of something more provably wrong with the Quran?

 

[JMorris]

people where not created from clay, and are not made of clay [error]
creation did not happen [error]
the moon never split in two in the 8th century[error]
adam and steve or eve did not happen [error]

 

[Faded]

people where not created from clay,

has been addressed and cannot be disproven, though phenomenally unlikely.

and are not made of clay [error]

I dont think the koran claims this?

creation did not happen [error]
the moon never split in two in the 8th century[error]
adam and steve or eve did not happen [error]

Are all valid points for discussion. Maybe one of our muslim colleagues could pick a point and quote us the relevant verses as a starting point? If we havent scared them all away that is

 

[darkendless]

Hope you dont think i've ignored any statement you have made to me? Ive tried to address everything so far but its possible I missed something?

In regards to composite materials - I dont think its always the case of retaining properties of the elements - for example:
Sodium is a silvery, soft, light metal that explodes when it becomes wet.
Chlorine is a greenish-yellow gas that is lethal when inhaled.
The compound they form is sodium chloride, or table salt.

As far as fusion/fission goes, I dont think it applies at all? I could be wrong though

That doesn't mean they do not retain properites of the original elements. They're both just so conveniently perfect together that they make such a strong bond atomicly and molecularly.

This is related to the debate as i have argued for almost 80 pages that we would see properties of clay (a non perfect molecule) when bonded with anything else to form anything human. If we are to take the QUran literally this is a huge fault.

 

[Faded]

That doesn't mean they do not retain properites of the original elements. They're both just so conveniently perfect together that they make such a strong bond atomicly and molecularly.

This is related to the debate as i have argued for almost 80 pages that we would see properties of clay (a non perfect molecule) when bonded with anything else to form anything human. If we are to take the QUran literally this is a huge fault.

Yes, but my point is that it doesnt say Allah bonded the clay with anything else to make people - he could have disassembled clay on the molecular or even sub-molecular level, then recombined it into whatever elements he needed.
Answer me this - is it even remotely possible that a sufficently powerful/advanced being would have the technology or ability to do the above?

 

[gnostic]

Also this is the point I was making about proof - just because you cannot prove the koran is true, does not mean it is untrue - you need to actually prove it.
By the same token just because you cannot prove it is untrue, does not mean that it is true.

But there are evidences for the Qur'an on about the first human was made from clay (or earth), apart from the Genesis 2 in the Bible/Tanakh:

1. The legend of the Flood hero, who is known as Ziusudra in the Sumerian poem - Eridu Genesis, or Atrahasis - in Old Babylonian epic of Atrahasis. Both tell the same story that the gods created humans out of clay, because they need workers to build cities, dyke, irrigation, temples for the gods, etc.The difference between these 2 myths and that of the Noah's Flood is that the people weren't destroyed by the Flood because they were evil, but because they made too much noises with their chatters, which angered insomniac Enlil.
2. The Sumerian poem of Enki and Ninmah, where Enki advised his mother, Nammu, to create humans from clay.
3. (Standard Babylonian Version) Epic of Gilgamesh, where the goddess Aruru created the hero Enkidu (who became friend of Gilgamesh) from clay.
4. The Sumerian poem of The Earth And The Pickaxe (sometimes called the Song of the Hoe), where Enlil used his Hoe, to dig holes in the earth; holes where black-headed people (Sumerians) sprang out of.
5. The ancient Egyptian myth about the god Khnum, who created every single human from clay, on a potter's wheel. He gave life to the clay figure, by his breath.
6. There's a few Greek heroes that were created from the earth, eg. Ericthonius of Athens and Pelasgus.

These are the only ones (myths) that I know of, but I am certain there are many other myths from other cultures, which I don't know that have similar creation myths.

These are the only proofs that the Qur'an have, in regards to humans being made out of clay or earth - myths - not scientific evidences or proofs.

And the reason ancient religious people believed that's how people were created from clay from 2 possibilities:

1. primitive people see how the plants grow - from the earth,
2. or because artists/craftsmen find it easier to shape clay into human shapes.

Islam, like all ancient religions, have absolutely know idea how people came to be, so they create stories either -

1. to invent myth precisely because of their lack of understanding
2. or to entertain people.

As you can see, Islam, like other Abrahamic religions, do have evidences, but they are all based on superstitutions and myths. And these evidences are false, and only prove that the Qur'an have errors.

Yes, but my point is that it doesnt say Allah bonded the clay with anything else to make people - he could have disassembled clay on the molecular or even sub-molecular level, then recombined it into whatever elements he needed.
Answer me this - is it even remotely possible that a sufficently powerful/advanced being would have the technology or ability to do the above?

You can only prove this is remotely possible, ONLY IF YOU CAN PROVE the existence of such a powerful or advanced being.

Can you prove of such existence, faded?

Otherwise, you talking of myth or science fiction, which has no more proof than the Qur'an have in regards to humans being made out of clay. You have not prove a single thing that your perspective any more true than that of Fatihah.

BTW, you sounds more like a theist posing as an atheist.

 

[gnostic]

BTW, Faded.

You sounds more like a theist posing as an atheist. Because you talk as if there are such higher being, like god, or worse, the so-called Intelligent Designer. Are you by any chance, a former Muslim or Christian? Or are you ID or creationist?

And you sound like you have no better understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, like the Muslims here do.

You are using the same weak argument as the Muslims here do, that just because there are some same atoms found in clay as in human, constitute that human are made out of clay. As I said before, the clay don't contain anywhere near the complexity molecular structure of living cells (not just human cells).

Until you understand the difference, then you are no better than the Muslim members here in understanding science.

 

[Ghostaka]

BTW, Faded.

You sounds more like a theist posing as an atheist. Because you talk as if there are such higher being, like god, or worse, the so-called Intelligent Designer. Are you by any chance, a former Muslim or Christian? Or are you ID or creationist?

And you sound like you have no better understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, like the Muslims here do.

You are using the same weak argument as the Muslims here do, that just because there are some same atoms found in clay as in human, constitute that human are made out of clay. As I said before, the clay don't contain anywhere near the complexity molecular structure of living cells (not just human cells).

Until you understand the difference, then you are no better than the Muslim members here in understanding science.

I knew you'd turn on Faded sooner or later .

... looks like you're just here in search of a fight... when there are no Muslims around .. you fight among yourselves.. haha.. "I'm jus' sayin" :sarcastic

Peace be upon you.

 

[Ghostaka]

You are using the same weak argument as the Muslims here do, that just because there are some same atoms found in clay as in human, constitute that human are made out of clay. As I said before, the clay don't contain anywhere near the complexity molecular structure of living cells (not just human cells).

Until you understand the difference, then you are no better than the Muslim members here in understanding science.

Gnostic... you know everything don't you?

Peace!

 

[darkendless]

Yes, but my point is that it doesnt say Allah bonded the clay with anything else to make people - he could have disassembled clay on the molecular or even sub-molecular level, then recombined it into whatever elements he needed.
Answer me this - is it even remotely possible that a sufficently powerful/advanced being would have the technology or ability to do the above?

Why would we assume theres a being called Allah? Evidence does not exist.

An omnipotent God could break the laws of chemistry to do what it wants. If you assume theres a God you can easily assume that this God does what ever it pleases.

From human laws it is not possible.

 

[kai]

surely its a waste of time debating subjects where people are assuming there is a god who can do magical things like make people out of clay or a rib. because no matter what the scientific evidence remember this god can do anything

 

[darkendless]

surely its a waste of time debating subjects where people are assuming there is a god who can do magical things like make people out of clay or a rib. because no matter what the scientific evidence remember this god can do anything

It took me 50 pages of back and forth arguing to realise that a lot of people are intellectually dishonest when it comes to science, and not drama-science either, hard data.

 

[kai]

It took me 50 pages of back and forth arguing to realise that a lot of people are intellectually dishonest when it comes to science, and not drama-science either, hard data.

i think its useless to argue with someone who will introduce magic into what could be a very interesting subject.

 

[Ghostaka]

people where not created from clay, and are not made of clay [error]
creation did not happen [error]
the moon never split in two in the 8th century[error]
adam and steve or eve did not happen [error]

Yea, more like Adam and Eve. All I see here are your own errors. Assumptions to the max.

Maybe one of our muslim colleagues could pick a point and quote us the relevant verses as a starting point? If we havent scared them all away that is

Don't worry, I'm still here. Looking for amusement . God Willing, I shall post the verses in question the next time I log in....

Until then... peace be upon you.

 

[darkendless]

i think its useless to argue with someone who will introduce magic into what could be a very interesting subject.

Ignorance is a theists best friend

 

[Faded]

But there are evidences for the Qur'an on about the first human was made from clay (or earth), apart from the Genesis 2 in the Bible/Tanakh:
These are the only ones (myths) that I know of, but I am certain there are many other myths from other cultures, which I don't know that have similar creation myths.
**********
These are the only proofs that the Qur'an have, in regards to humans being made out of clay or earth - myths - not scientific evidences or proofs.

There are indeed a few more similar myths - but I dont think the koran cites this as being the reason? I could be wrong of course, but without proof this is why the koran says about being made from clay, it merely increases the evidence against it - makes it more probable, but not a certainty.

And the reason ancient religious people believed that's how people were created from clay from 2 possibilities:

1. primitive people see how the plants grow - from the earth,
2. or because artists/craftsmen find it easier to shape clay into human shapes.

Islam, like all ancient religions, have absolutely know idea how people came to be, so they create stories either -

1. to invent myth precisely because of their lack of understanding
2. or to entertain people.

Theres the statment. Where's the proof?
I jest of course, but this seems to be mostly supposition on your part.

You can only prove this is remotely possible, ONLY IF YOU CAN PROVE the existence of such a powerful or advanced being.

Actually no, its only provably true if you can prove the existance of such a powerful being. I'm not attempting to prove it is true.

Can you prove of such existence, faded?

dont be silly.

Otherwise, you talking of myth or science fiction, which has no more proof than the Qur'an have in regards to humans being made out of clay. You have not prove a single thing that your perspective any more true than that of Fatihah.

I havent proved anything. I never intended to. What I have have shown is that you can't disprove it.

BTW, Faded.

You sounds more like a theist posing as an atheist. Because you talk as if there are such higher being, like god, or worse, the so-called Intelligent Designer. Are you by any chance, a former Muslim or Christian? Or are you ID or creationist?

I was baptised as a baby and brought up in a non-practising christian household, but I have not followed any faith since I was able to think for myself.

And you sound like you have no better understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, like the Muslims here do.

This seems rather presumptious? Based on what you have discussed with me - mostly related to physics, I would hazard a guess that I have at least a good an understanding as you, possibly better.

You are using the same weak argument as the Muslims here do, that just because there are some same atoms found in clay as in human, constitute that human are made out of clay. As I said before, the clay don't contain anywhere near the complexity molecular structure of living cells (not just human cells).

kinda getting bored of explaining to you that the former is not what I have said and the latter is irrelevant

Until you understand the difference, then you are no better than the Muslim members here in understanding science.

Again this is a bit presumptious? While fatitah's understanding of science may have been a bit.... misguided... some of the other muslims posting in this thread havent even made any scientific statements.


Now to address the points from others:

Why would we assume theres a being called Allah? Evidence does not exist.

Of course there is no evidence allah exists, but when discussing the potential error of "are we made from clay" in the statment "Allah made us from clay" one must assume Allah exists (for the purposes of the debate) as if Allah does not exist then the statement is erroneous regardless. "Does Allah exist" is another question.

An omnipotent God could break the laws of chemistry to do what it wants. If you assume theres a God you can easily assume that this God does what ever it pleases.

true enough I guess, if you assume god is omnipotent. (as a personal note, i've always thought that if god exists, he'll be bound be the same laws of physics we are)

From human laws it is not possible.

If you mean laws of physics there's nothing to preclude this from being a very real possibility. If you mean its beyond the scope of human technology - currently yes, but in a thousand years, who's to say?

i think its useless to argue with someone who will introduce magic into what could be a very interesting subject.

hope your not including me in this? everything I've said has been within the rules of physics and chemistry

 

[kai]

If everything someone says is within the rules of Physics and Chemistry without the assumption of an all powerful Extra terrestrial entity in their conclusions then i suspect no Magic is involved. the cap only fits those that wish to wear it (its magical)