Quran or Bible is it the Final Word of God?

[TransmutingSoul]

This statement was made in another thread about the Quran;

"I believe it is still the dispensation of Muhammad, because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.

Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings."

I see this statement is also applicable to Christians, as they also see the Word of Christ as a Final Word from God.

Thus what support can you give to the view some people have about the Bible and Quran, why is it man can now speak for God and say there will be no more Revelation?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe it is till the dispensation of Muhammad because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.
Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings.

Regards
______________
*[98:3]
A Messenger from Allah, reciting unto them the pure Scriptures.
[98:4]
Therein are lasting commandments.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 98: Al-Bayyinah
**[62:3]
He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 62: Al-Jumu`ah

I moved this @paarsurrey as it would derail another thread.

I would offer the abolition of Holy War to be core and lasting teaching. This is the day promised in the Bible where War will be learned no more. Thus Baha'u'llah has given this teaching about Holy War;

"Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand." – Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 24.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@paarsurrey

The equality of Men and Women, with the education of women now given the priority would be another core teaching for this dispensation;

"Over a century ago, for the first time in religious history, Bahá’u’lláh, the Founder of the Bahá’í Faith, in announcing God’s purpose for the age, proclaimed the principle of the equality of women and men, saying: “Women and men have been and will always be equal in the sight of God.” The establishment of equal rights and privileges for women and men, Bahá’u’lláh says, is a precondition for the attainment of a wider unity that will ensure the well-being and security of all peoples. The Bahá’í Writings state emphatically that “When all mankind shall receive the same opportunity of education and the equality of men and women be realized, the foundations of war will be utterly destroyed.”"

This teaching is just starting to permeate the minds of those that have and still do suppress women.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

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This statement was made in another thread about the Quran;

"I believe it is still the dispensation of Muhammad, because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.

Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings."

I see this statement is also applicable to Christians, as they also see the Word of Christ as a Final Word from God.

Thus what support can you give to the view some people have about the Bible and Quran, why is it man can now speak for God and say there will be no more Revelation?

Regards Tony

Every revelation is the final revelation of God until the next one comes along. Every prophet is the seal of the prophets until the next prophet comes along and unseals it. Every Christ is the alpha and the Omega until the next Christ comes along and declares He is the next Alpha and Omega. Every prophet has language their followers misunderstand or misinterpret. Every Messenger educates but eventually their Teachings are lost, confused or distorted to make it sound as if their Messenger was the last and final One for all time. The truth is God never stops His revelation to humanity. However some imagine the tongue of God that reveals can be silenced or the hands of God tied.

 

[loverofhumanity]

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This statement was made in another thread about the Quran;

"I believe it is still the dispensation of Muhammad, because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.

Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings."

I see this statement is also applicable to Christians, as they also see the Word of Christ as a Final Word from God.

Thus what support can you give to the view some people have about the Bible and Quran, why is it man can now speak for God and say there will be no more Revelation?

Regards Tony

Quran 31:27

And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

This one verse alone is indicative that Revelations or Words from God through future Messengers will continue and will never come to an end.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For Muslims usually the term 'Seal of Prophets' is understood as finality of the revelation. This Seal of Prophets term, plus certain Hadithes in which Muhammad said, there will be no prophet after Me, are the reasons worldwide Muslims believe in the finality of Revelations.

For Christians, usually the belief that since the Son of God has come, and died for our sins, there is no need for more revelations. All is needed is belief in Jesus Christ.

The Muslims typically believe that, all Books of God became corrupted by human beings. Only the Quran is preserved, thus no need for another revelation when Quran is not corrupted. This is why God said in the Quran, that Today I have completed my Religion for you, and has chose Islam as the only acceptable Religion. Any other Religion than Islam is Not acceptable, and whoever chooses any other Religion than Islam, will be of the lost ones on the Day of Resurrection.


To me sounds quite easy to understand why the Muslims or Christians believe in finality of their own revelation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quran 31:27

And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

This one verse alone is indicative that Revelations or Words from God through future Messengers will continue and will never come to an end.

It may appear that this verse only shows God has infinite knowledge, but does this verse say, He would continue to reveal more books for humanity?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Every revelation is the final revelation of God until the next one comes along. Every prophet is the seal of the prophets until the next prophet comes along and unseals it. Every Christ is the alpha and the Omega until the next Christ comes along and declares He is the next Alpha and Omega. Every prophet has language their followers misunderstand or misinterpret. Every Messenger educates but eventually their Teachings are lost, confused or distorted to make it sound as if their Messenger was the last and final One for all time. The truth is God never stops His revelation to humanity. However some imagine the tongue of God that reveals can be silenced or the hands of God tied.

The issue is, non of the prophets or messengers such as Jesus or Muhammad said anything that can be seen as explicit regarding another revelation after their own revelation. Jesus said He comes back to judge everyone on the Last day, and the believers will be taken to heaven, and the sinners will go to hell. Muhammad also did not reveal in Quran that there will be another messenger after Him with a new revelation. He revealed about day of resurrection when they will be going to hevean or hell.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For Muslims usually the term 'Seal of Prophets' is understood as finality of the revelation. This Seal of Prophets term, plus certain Hadithes in which Muhammad said, there will be no prophet after Me, are the reasons worldwide Muslims believe in the finality of Revelations.

For Christians, usually the belief that since the Son of God has come, and died for our sins, there is no need for more revelations. All is needed is belief in Jesus Christ.

The Muslims typically believe that, all Books of God became corrupted by human beings. Only the Quran is preserved, thus no need for another revelation when Quran is not corrupted. This is why God said in the Quran, that Today I have completed my Religion for you, and has chose Islam as the only acceptable Religion. Any other Religion than Islam is Not acceptable, and whoever chooses any other Religion than Islam, will be of the lost ones on the Day of Resurrection.


To me sounds quite easy to understand why the Muslims or Christians believe in finality of their own revelation.

There is nothing explicit about a new revelation I'm aware of, that is true. Then again the Jews made that argument to refute Christ's return saying that their Covenants with God were Eternal and the Messiah would not alter on stroke of the pen. Jesus even laid claim to that very understanding (Matthew 5:17-18) but then abrogated the Mosaic covenant.

Its all a test from God. No wonder He talked about the powerful and obscuring clouds that would accompanying His revelation (Matthew 24:30).

 

[Dawnofhope]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nice

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is nothing explicit about a new revelation I'm aware of, that is true. Then again the Jews made that argument to refute Christ's return saying that their Covenants with God were Eternal and the Messiah would not alter on stroke of the pen. Jesus even laid claim to that very understanding (Matthew 5:17-18) but then abrogated the Mosaic covenant.

Its all a test from God. No wonder He talked about the powerful and obscuring clouds that would accompanying His revelation (Matthew 24:30).

Yes, there is no explicit mention of another revelation after Islam. However, apparently Jesus explicitly had said after Him comes another messenger whose name will be Ahmad. Ahmad is another name of prophet Muhammad. Many Muslims believe the Bible contained explicit prophecies regarding Muhammad as a messenger after Christ, but the Christians removed these verses and corrupted Bible. As Quran says, Jews and Christians made corruptions. But Quran is untouched. That's the difference.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Many Muslims believe the Bible contained explicit prophecies regarding Muhammad as a messenger after Christ, but the Christians removed these verses and corrupted Bible. As Quran says, Jews and Christians made corruptions. But Quran is untouched. That's the difference.

There is no evidence Christians removed prophecies concerning Muhammad. I'd always considered that was the type of thinkng Baha'u'llah was criticising in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, 90 the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is no evidence Christians removed prophecies concerning Muhammad. I'd always considered that was the type of thinkng Baha'u'llah was criticising in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, 90 the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Yes, there is no evidence in Christian history that any prophecies are removed but, if any prophecies were removed, there may not necesserily be any evidence for it. All is seen today are 4 Gosples which in some cases have a little contradiction with each other. Some Muslims see these differences between Gospels as evidnce that these Books are not without error, and thus to Muslims are evidence that there would have been prophecies which were removed from the Gosples. However as regarding guidence, it has enough guidence to guide until revelation of the Quran. When Muhammad appeared, people did not need to recognize Muhammad based on the prophecies which were removed from the Bible, because Muhammad did Miracles such as splitting the moon. Just saying what I have seen in the mind of the Muslims who I had discussions with.

 

[siti]

Jesus said He comes back to judge everyone on the Last day, and the believers will be taken to heaven, and the sinners will go to hell.

Where does Jesus say this?

Then again the Jews made that argument to refute Christ's return saying that their Covenants with God were Eternal and the Messiah would not alter on stroke of the pen. Jesus even laid claim to that very understanding (Matthew 5:17-18) but then abrogated the Mosaic covenant.

Where does Jesus "abrogate" the Mosaic Covenant?

Jesus explicitly had said after Him comes another messenger whose name will be Ahmad.

Where does Jesus say this?

Muslims believe the Bible contained explicit prophecies regarding Muhammad as a messenger after Christ, but the Christians removed these verses and corrupted Bible. As Quran says, Jews and Christians made corruptions. But Quran is untouched.

Where is the evidence for any of these claims?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thus what support can you give to the view some people have about the Bible and Quran, why is it man can now speak for God and say there will be no more Revelation?

They cannot speak for God, they just think they can. Only God speaks for God, through Manifestations of God... The following is one of my favorite passages...

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.

Can one of sane mind ever seriously imagine that, in view of certain words the meaning of which he cannot comprehend, the portal of God’s infinite guidance can ever be closed in the face of men? Can he ever conceive for these Divine Luminaries, these resplendent Lights either a beginning or an end? What outpouring flood can compare with the stream of His all-embracing grace, and what blessing can excel the evidences of so great and pervasive a mercy? There can be no doubt whatever that if for one moment the tide of His mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. For this reason, from the beginning that hath no beginning the portals of Divine mercy have been flung open to the face of all created things, and the clouds of Truth will continue to the end that hath no end to rain on the soil of human capacity, reality and personality their favors and bounties. Such hath been God’s method continued from everlasting to everlasting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-69​

 

[Dawnofhope]

Where does Jesus "abrogate" the Mosaic Covenant?

In Matthew’s record of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18).

So if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding, right? So the Sabbath requirements must still be applicable, along with many other elements of the Mosaic Law. This belief is based on a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ never suggested the laws of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict the Teachings of the Apostles (Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).

One arguement is the Greek meaning of the word “abolish” translated from the Greek kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61, Acts of the Apostles 6:14) and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1). The word can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.”

The word abolish used in Matthew 5:17 is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “...not to abolish, but to fulfill.” Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, hroug prophetic fulfilment and the establishment of a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31, Luke 22:20).

Healing on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6) and changing the laws of marriage (Matthew 19:3-12) are specific examples of His authority to bring a New Covenant with new laws.

 

[Muffled]

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This statement was made in another thread about the Quran;

"I believe it is still the dispensation of Muhammad, because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.

Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings."

I see this statement is also applicable to Christians, as they also see the Word of Christ as a Final Word from God.

Thus what support can you give to the view some people have about the Bible and Quran, why is it man can now speak for God and say there will be no more Revelation?

Regards Tony

I believe both statements in the boxes are incorrect.

I believe that is vanity at work. There are a lot of things that surpass the teachings of the Qu'ran. That doesn't mean that the B man's teachings come from God but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he had a good concept once in a while.

I believe they use the phrase authoritative word from God as opposed to what the Holy Spirit says. However much of the New Testament is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I believe it is a self fulfilling prophecy. If one believes there will not be a future Word then none will be acknowledged.

 

[Muffled]

Every revelation is the final revelation of God until the next one comes along. Every prophet is the seal of the prophets until the next prophet comes along and unseals it. Every Christ is the alpha and the Omega until the next Christ comes along and declares He is the next Alpha and Omega. Every prophet has language their followers misunderstand or misinterpret. Every Messenger educates but eventually their Teachings are lost, confused or distorted to make it sound as if their Messenger was the last and final One for all time. The truth is God never stops His revelation to humanity. However some imagine the tongue of God that reveals can be silenced or the hands of God tied.

I believe if another one comes along he will be a false one as Jesus said. I believe there is only one alpha and omega and that is God so when Jesus says it you know what that means.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe if another one comes along he will be a false one as Jesus said. I believe there is only one alpha and omega and that is God so when Jesus says it you know what that means.

How does this passage fit with that view?

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Regards Tony