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Race and identity politics

Do you believe focusing on racial identity contributes to increasing racism?


  • Total voters
    22
This is an interesting article on race and coalition instincts:

Throughout our species' history, intergroup conflict depended on the categorization of the social world into us versus them. When this divide occurs along racial lines, this categorization and its malignant consequences appear capable of persisting stably. Indeed, ingroup favoritism paired with outgroup indifference or hostility appears to exist in all human cultures (1, 2). The simple act of categorizing individuals into two social groups predisposes humans to discriminate in favor of their ingroup and against the outgroup in both allocation of resources and evaluation of conduct (27). Following on historical experience, field and laboratory studies have confirmed that this behavior is remarkably easy to elicit: people discriminate against outgroups even when they are assigned to groups temporarily and anonymously by an experimenter who uses dimensions that are trivial, previously without social significance, and random with respect to any real characteristics of the individuals assigned (28).


Most people in modern society agree that racism and racial discrimination are harmful and desire their elimination, although there is significant disagreement on how this is best achieved.

One tenet common in modern progressive politics relates to privileging certain identity markers above all others, key among these is the idea of race. Such a view has become so entrenched that even professing a desire to have a 'raceless' society is seen as offensive and racist.

One argument against identity politics is that by fetishising exclusive identity markers (race, gender, sexuality) above all others, you create divisions which act counter to the intent of a more inclusive society. Instead one should look for inclusive markers of identity that do not depend on an accident of birth.

The following article provides some support for this idea. The more race is used as a marker of identity (and thus form a basis for in/out groups) the more racism increases.

Can race be erased? Coalitional computation and social categorization
Robert Kurzban, John Tooby, and Leda Cosmides
PNAS December 18, 2001. 98 (26) 15387-15392;

Previous studies have established that people encode the race of each individual they encounter, and do so via computational processes that appear to be both automatic and mandatory. If true, this conclusion would be important, because categorizing others by their race is a precondition for treating them differently according to race. Here we report experiments, using unobtrusive measures, showing that categorizing individuals by race is not inevitable, and supporting an alternative hypothesis: that encoding by race is instead a reversible byproduct of cognitive machinery that evolved to detect coalitional alliances. The results show that subjects encode coalitional affiliations as a normal part of person representation. More importantly, when cues of coalitional affiliation no longer track or correspond to race, subjects markedly reduce the extent to which they categorize others by race, and indeed may cease doing so entirely. Despite a lifetime's experience of race as a predictor of social alliance, less than 4 min of exposure to an alternate social world was enough to deflate the tendency to categorize by race. These results suggest that racism may be a volatile and eradicable construct that persists only so long as it is actively maintained through being linked to parallel systems of social alliance.

What is most striking about these results is just how easy it was to diminish the importance of race by manipulating coalition—especially given the repeated failure over decades to find other means to influence racial encoding. The sensitivity of race to coalitional manipulation lends credence to the hypothesis that, to the human mind, race is simply one historically contingent subtype of coalition. Our subjects had experienced a lifetime in which ethnicity (including race) was an ecologically valid pre- dictor of people’s social alliances and coalitional affiliations. Yet less than 4 min of exposure to an alternative social world in which race was irrelevant to the prevailing system of alliance caused a dramatic decrease in the extent to which they categorized others by race. This implies that coalition, and hence race, is a volatile, dynamically updated cognitive variable, easily overwritten by new circumstances. If the same processes govern categorization outside the laboratory, then the prospects for reducing or even eliminating the widespread tendency to categorize persons by race may be very good indeed.



Regardless of what one deems normatively desirable, coalitional instincts are very powerful, and human 'rationality' cannot consistently overcome our hardwired tendencies towards irrationality.

In light of this, are those who focus on highlighting racial dimensions of identity unwittingly contributing to perpetuating racism and discrimination? Thoughts?
 

CruzNichaphor

Active Member
An inescapable part of human nature is an immediate fear, scepticism, disgust, rivalry or distain for "the other". This is an evolutionary trait that is shared by all people.

A crucial part of any right minded person's formative years involves overcoming the naturally negative feelings towards "the other" by way of identifying what it is within ourselves as individuals that causes us to feel insecure about others and finding a way to not be threatened by those insecurities.

We have full control over these intrinsic feelings of ours and therefore it is the responsibility of the individual to take what had once been (and in many cases, continues to be) a helpful evolutionary development in our species and project it in a way that neither violates the rights of others nor compromises ourselves as individuals.

This being said: race, gender and all other kinds of identity politics is completely ****ed and needs to be treated with as much ridicule as possible. The danger that this sort of trash poses society is that it enables even the most well-meaning people to become their own worst enemy as they swing quickly towards what they are trying to avoid (for instance: hyper-racist SJWs who don't even hold the capacity to see how racist they are towards themselves) and therefore become self-loathing masochists.

Identity politics as a whole is absurd and perverse at best & dangerous and criminal at worst.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I just want to underline that national identity is something juridically relevant in many European countries, since citizenship is only acquired by ius sanguinis.
 
A crucial part of any right minded person's formative years involves overcoming the naturally negative feelings towards "the other" by way of identifying what it is within ourselves as individuals that causes us to feel insecure about others and finding a way to not be threatened by those insecurities.

We have full control over these intrinsic feelings of ours

The article notes that we can't overcome these things as we don't have full control over them. Perhaps they can be mitigated to some extent, but we can't help but (subconsciously) discriminate against the out group, even if that out group is completely arbitrary (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts).

What we can do is change our conceptions of who belongs to our in groups though.
 

Frater Sisyphus

Contradiction, irrationality and disorder
"Race" is an illusion, it's a product of culture. It is true that there are tendencies in face types and skin colors to vary, but the general idea of "Race" is largely derived from culture, language and accent - which anyone can technically adopt.
 

CruzNichaphor

Active Member
The article notes that we can't overcome these things as we don't have full control over them. Perhaps they can be mitigated to some extent, but we can't help but (subconsciously) discriminate against the out group, even if that out group is completely arbitrary (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts).

What we can do is change our conceptions of who belongs to our in groups though.

Disagreed.

I have far more faith in the capacity for modern human intellect and discipline to override such impulses regardless of how imbued they are within our psyche. Ultimately it boils down to discipline, insight and self-reflection.

That isn't to say that this is an easy task by any measure however.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
The article notes that we can't overcome these things as we don't have full control over them. Perhaps they can be mitigated to some extent, but we can't help but (subconsciously) discriminate against the out group, even if that out group is completely arbitrary (red t-shirts v blue t-shirts).

What we can do is change our conceptions of who belongs to our in groups though.

Racism can simply be eliminated by education. Promote the truth that there is just one human race. Eliminate race from all forms in society and replace it with an accurate description of ethnicity or cultural-ism. Don't allow people, governments or companies use race improperly.

Right now I'm looking for a job 75% of the applications want me to identify my race only 25% ask for my ethnicity this is wrong.
 
Disagreed.

I have far more faith in the capacity for modern human intellect and discipline to override such impulses regardless of how imbued they are within our psyche. Ultimately it boils down to discipline, insight and self-reflection.

That isn't to say that this is an easy task by any measure however.

I'm far more sceptical about the ability of the 'modern' human intellect to completely override our evolved cognition. We've always overestimated our own rationality, and the modern human intellect, via science, has managed to repeatedly demonstrated the many failings that mean we are only ever intermittently rational:

Extensive work in social psychological science further attests to the fact that humans are highly flexible in creating cognitive representations of in-group versus out-group, and act upon those social categorizations quickly by favoring the in-group relative to the out-group [47], [48]. As shown here, and elsewhere [17], [36], [40], [49], oxytocin appears pivotal in up-regulating the human response to (arbitrary) in-group/out-group distinctions, shifting the focus from protecting and promoting oneself towards protecting and promoting the (members of the) in-group

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492361/

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is no doubt that people use race as a tool to gain an advantage or use as a crutch by pointing out and adhering to ones differences and distinctions that sets them apart. Not hesitating to use as a continual reminder, any such differences.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Right now I'm looking for a job 75% of the applications want me to identify my race only 25% ask for my ethnicity this is wrong.
So, in a very real sense, you are experiencing discrimination based on skin colour. Back in the old days, THAT used to be known as racism. That you are a male probably doesn't help. Can you fake a disability? How about relating to yourself as a black female? Could help. :)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
This is an interesting article on race and coalition instincts:

Throughout our species' history, intergroup conflict depended on the categorization of the social world into us versus them. When this divide occurs along racial lines, this categorization and its malignant consequences appear capable of persisting stably. Indeed, ingroup favoritism paired with outgroup indifference or hostility appears to exist in all human cultures (1, 2). The simple act of categorizing individuals into two social groups predisposes humans to discriminate in favor of their ingroup and against the outgroup in both allocation of resources and evaluation of conduct (27). Following on historical experience, field and laboratory studies have confirmed that this behavior is remarkably easy to elicit: people discriminate against outgroups even when they are assigned to groups temporarily and anonymously by an experimenter who uses dimensions that are trivial, previously without social significance, and random with respect to any real characteristics of the individuals assigned (28).


Most people in modern society agree that racism and racial discrimination are harmful and desire their elimination, although there is significant disagreement on how this is best achieved.

One tenet common in modern progressive politics relates to privileging certain identity markers above all others, key among these is the idea of race. Such a view has become so entrenched that even professing a desire to have a 'raceless' society is seen as offensive and racist.

One argument against identity politics is that by fetishising exclusive identity markers (race, gender, sexuality) above all others, you create divisions which act counter to the intent of a more inclusive society. Instead one should look for inclusive markers of identity that do not depend on an accident of birth.

The following article provides some support for this idea. The more race is used as a marker of identity (and thus form a basis for in/out groups) the more racism increases.

Can race be erased? Coalitional computation and social categorization
Robert Kurzban, John Tooby, and Leda Cosmides
PNAS December 18, 2001. 98 (26) 15387-15392;

Previous studies have established that people encode the race of each individual they encounter, and do so via computational processes that appear to be both automatic and mandatory. If true, this conclusion would be important, because categorizing others by their race is a precondition for treating them differently according to race. Here we report experiments, using unobtrusive measures, showing that categorizing individuals by race is not inevitable, and supporting an alternative hypothesis: that encoding by race is instead a reversible byproduct of cognitive machinery that evolved to detect coalitional alliances. The results show that subjects encode coalitional affiliations as a normal part of person representation. More importantly, when cues of coalitional affiliation no longer track or correspond to race, subjects markedly reduce the extent to which they categorize others by race, and indeed may cease doing so entirely. Despite a lifetime's experience of race as a predictor of social alliance, less than 4 min of exposure to an alternate social world was enough to deflate the tendency to categorize by race. These results suggest that racism may be a volatile and eradicable construct that persists only so long as it is actively maintained through being linked to parallel systems of social alliance.

What is most striking about these results is just how easy it was to diminish the importance of race by manipulating coalition—especially given the repeated failure over decades to find other means to influence racial encoding. The sensitivity of race to coalitional manipulation lends credence to the hypothesis that, to the human mind, race is simply one historically contingent subtype of coalition. Our subjects had experienced a lifetime in which ethnicity (including race) was an ecologically valid pre- dictor of people’s social alliances and coalitional affiliations. Yet less than 4 min of exposure to an alternative social world in which race was irrelevant to the prevailing system of alliance caused a dramatic decrease in the extent to which they categorized others by race. This implies that coalition, and hence race, is a volatile, dynamically updated cognitive variable, easily overwritten by new circumstances. If the same processes govern categorization outside the laboratory, then the prospects for reducing or even eliminating the widespread tendency to categorize persons by race may be very good indeed.



Regardless of what one deems normatively desirable, coalitional instincts are very powerful, and human 'rationality' cannot consistently overcome our hardwired tendencies towards irrationality.

In light of this, are those who focus on highlighting racial dimensions of identity unwittingly contributing to perpetuating racism and discrimination? Thoughts?
Though I could be confused, being a older white male, it sounds like what you are describing what is known euphemistically as "equity and inclusion". Equity, which is the antithesis of equality, seeks to actively give recognition based on category check-marks, elevating the individual to being included into the desired IN-group. Those with lower oppression check-mark scores (ie. hetero (cis) white males) are sidelined in favor of those with more oppression check marks. *points at @bobhikes *

Technically, this isn't about race, it's about distribution of power within groups. It's an effort to cause a systemic imbalance to meritocracy, by basing merit on those ever important oppression check-marks, rather than on inherent ability which is blind to your life experience. In theory, this is the real face of another euphemistic term known as "diversity" which is, in reality, a quota system and hardly genuine diversity.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
It's called divide and conquer. It's not truly unwitting(not at the top), but a concerted effort to keep us divided.
 
Though I could be confused, being a older white male, it sounds like what you are describing what is known euphemistically as "equity and inclusion". Equity, which is the antithesis of equality, seeks to actively give recognition based on category check-marks, elevating the individual to being included into the desired IN-group. Those with lower oppression check-mark scores (ie. hetero (cis) white males) are sidelined in favor of those with more oppression check marks.

Rather than the broader impact of identity politics on society, my meaning was really closer to that of the linked scientific paper. The more race is highlighted as a marker of identity, the more importance it is given when people make automatic judgements about who is in 'their' group.

Even if racial identity politics was completely benign in all other ways, it drums into people the idea that race is a core marker of identity and this leads to discrimination as we can''t help but discriminate against outgroups.

Hopefully someone who supports identity politics will explain how they would reconcile their views with the paper's findings.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Rather than the broader impact of identity politics on society, my meaning was really closer to that of the linked scientific paper. The more race is highlighted as a marker of identity, the more importance it is given when people make automatic judgements about who is in 'their' group.

Even if racial identity politics was completely benign in all other ways, it drums into people the idea that race is a core marker of identity and this leads to discrimination as we can''t help but discriminate against outgroups.

Hopefully someone who supports identity politics will explain how they would reconcile their views with the paper's findings.
I once bought something at the local People's Food Coop.
(Yes, that's really the name. Hippie capitalists they are.)
The cashier asked me if I'm a student.
I asked why.
She said students get a discount.
I informed her: Ann Arbor's Human Rights Ordinance prohibits discrimination
on the basis of educational affiliation in all public accommodations.
She responded: Discrimination is OK if it's for someone instead of against someone.
Realizing that she was a few shingles short of a square, I didn't pursue it.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I once bought something at the local People's Food Coop.
(Yes, that's really the name. Hippie capitalists they are.)
The cashier asked me if I'm a student.
I asked why.
She said students get a discount.
I informed her: Ann Arbor's Human Rights Ordinance prohibits discrimination
on the basis of educational affiliation in all public accommodations.
She responded: Discrimination is OK if it's for someone instead of against someone.
Realizing that she was a few shingles short of a square, I didn't pursue it.
More in line with the theme @Augustus is promoting in the thread, we all use personal discrimination in almost every choice we make. We unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) extend that discrimination into the realm of race. For example, I'm all for discrimination when I am claiming my "Senior's discount". :p (Here I am going with the secondary definition and not the more general, racially charged, definition of discrimination.)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
In light of this, are those who focus on highlighting racial dimensions of identity unwittingly contributing to perpetuating racism and discrimination? Thoughts?

Taking a step back, my answer was "it depends". By someone asserting that he loves bacon, for example, I might be tempted to discriminate against him because I think it's evil and he's participating in evil which makes him evil. Thus his assertion of loving bacon contributed to my discriminating against him.

And it's true that focusing on the tribal as assertions of identity can do can contribute to more tribalism. But I think there's a stage when people have been so emotionally beaten up because others already discriminate where asserting the beauty of one's own race or whatever might be a critical intermediate step.

Thus, as usual, life is complex.

She responded: Discrimination is OK if it's for someone instead of against someone.

I get a discount as a "senior citizen" and in a health food store because I'm a Costco member. I've also gotten goodies as a frequent flier and because I'm an Amazon prime member. You are indirectly asserting that no one should get a discount or other consideration for any reason. That's more radical than even the communist viewpoint "From each according to his ability. To each according to his need/work" instead asserting "to each totally equally"
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You are indirectly asserting that no one should get a discount or other consideration for any reason.
I am?
I had no idea I was doing that!
It's amazing the things I thought I didn't believe, but then I discover from posters
with a window into my soul that I really do believe things I don't believe. How odd.
But what would I know...I'm just "flavored chicken".

Do you see no difference between illegal discrimination against protected groups,
& price discrimination based upon paid membership, eg, Amazon Prime, Costco?
 
Last edited:

Jumi

Well-Known Member
It always kind of kills racism when you realize that people of different race participating in same interests are more like you than your neighbors.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I am?
I had no idea I was doing that!
It's amazing the things I thought I didn't believe, but then I discover from posters
with a window into my soul that I really do believe things I don't believe. How odd.
But what would I know...I'm just "flavored chicken".

Do you see no difference between illegal discrimination against protected groups,
& price discrimination based upon paid membership, eg, Amazon Prime, Costco?

To go back to the quote which inspired my post:

She said students get a discount.
I informed her: Ann Arbor's Human Rights Ordinance prohibits discrimination
on the basis of educational affiliation in all public accommodations.
She responded: Discrimination is OK if it's for someone instead of against someone.
Realizing that she was a few shingles short of a square, I didn't pursue it.

Being the recipient of discrimination based on my being a "senior citizen" specifically getting a discount, I see no difference in a student getting a discount. Also obviously "public accommodations" and purchasing something in a store are two different things.

And you insulted her intelligence based on you wanting a discount you were not going to get.

The natural assumption is that you are against discounts to any group such as students and seniors.
 
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