Racism in Heathenry

[The Kilted Heathen]

An older video, and one that I had trouble uploading to YouTube when it was made.

 

[VioletVortex]

Heathenry does not make people racist, it attracts racist people looking to justify it. I used to feel that way. It was more of an image than anything, and I used Heathenry to reinforce that facade.

I have no less of a fondness for Pagan theology, which is why I have not relinquished acces to this DIR, but I got tired of lying to myself and pretending to be a Nazi.

 

[Hildeburh]

There are intolerant people who hide behind all religions, it is not a particularly Heathen phenomenon.

 

[DanishCrow]

There are intolerant people who hide behind all religions, it is not a particularly Heathen phenomenon.

This is completely true, but does not get at the heart of the matter: That we deal with a LOT higher racist-to-nonracist ratio than most other religions. Here in Denmark, the official aesir/vanir movement has it's leadership couped by a saga-illiterate blot group who are also neo-nazis and uncritically copy theology (and I use the term very loosely) from the US Asatru Folk Assembly, thus disseminating to common good heathens all over Denmark that interracial marriage is wrong and that not helping refugees are part of heathen doctrine.

This doesn't generally happen to other religions, as I see it

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

That we deal with a LOT higher racist-to-nonracist ratio than most other religions.

Honestly, I don't think we do. When Hugin's Heathen Hof did their global survey, only about 6% (at most) of Heathens polled were following along racist themes. 6:94 is pretty good odds in our favor.

Here in Denmark, the official aesir/vanir movement has it's leadership couped by a saga-illiterate blot group who are also neo-nazis and uncritically copy theology (and I use the term very loosely) from the US Asatru Folk Assembly, thus disseminating to common good heathens all over Denmark that interracial marriage is wrong and that not helping refugees are part of heathen doctrine.

Aye, but how many listen? As I've found (from the video in my OP, even,) its the racist few who are really loud. My video has 42 likes to 12 dislikes, but the comments are just full of racists making arses of themselves.

This doesn't generally happen to other religions, as I see it

Nah. Christians are chock-full of racists who are just as bad - if not worse - than the people we deal with. They've even got a foot in the Neo-Nazi slime, but we don't have one in the KKK. For example.

Welcome, by the way!

 

[DanishCrow]

You know what, you're probably right. I just get really depressed because, at least in the case of the AFA and the Danish movement, nearly all public figures associated with our ways, are quoting neo-nazi nonsense and saying it's heathenry.

Christians seem spoiled by comparison. Here in DK we have a christian state church, and it's compelled to follow Danish law in all matters, while the formal heathen 'church' can gargle horrible anti-modernist crap all day and get a free pass.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I've recently started really pushing Heathens within my various circles to become a louder voice for reason and civil representation of our shared faiths. We've started black-lists for groups like Hugin's Heathen Hof, The Troth, Asatru Facebook Forum, and even The Asatru Community (I think) cataloging known racists and supremacists. It's tough, to be sure, but certainly not impossible.

 

[Hildeburh]

I've recently started really pushing Heathens within my various circles to become a louder voice for reason and civil representation of our shared faiths. We've started black-lists for groups like Hugin's Heathen Hof, The Troth, Asatru Facebook Forum, and even The Asatru Community (I think) cataloging known racists and supremacists. It's tough, to be sure, but certainly not impossible.

I think that is a marvelous idea.

I see this as a part of a wider discussion regarding the use of the descriptor Heathen. The title Heathen has become too generic and applied too liberally, rather like the title Wicca. Is it too late to reclaim the word Heathen from neo-völkisch groups such as Wotansfolk and the Temple of Wotan? Or the from plug and play eclectics who randomly choose a germanic god and goddess and slot them into the Wheel of the Year?

As much as the Universalist view was an improvement on far right Folkish sentiments; both of these perspectives have brought with them a great deal of unnecessary syncretism from none Heathen sources.

Is it time to choose another descriptor for ourselves, rather than use one originally chosen for us by Christians and despoiled by racists, LARPERS and eclectics?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The title Heathen has become too generic and applied too liberally, rather like the title Wicca.

We've had this discussion before (so I don't expect this to go very far) but no, it has not. Heathenry (and thus Heathen) applies to Germanic Contemporary Paganism, which includes traditions continuing pre-chrsitian beliefs of Scandinavian and Germanic peoples. Sometimes it includes Slavic beliefs. That's it - full stop. Unlike Wicca it does not include Celtic, Greek, Roman, Etruscan, Egyptian, Canaanite, Asian, or indigenous American beliefs.

Is it too late to reclaim the word Heathen from neo-völkisch groups such as Wotansfolk and the Temple of Wotan? Or the from plug and play eclectics who randomly choose a germanic god and goddess and slot them into the Wheel of the Year?

You mean stop them from using it? The first groups that you mention (Wotansfolk and ToW) are Heathens. That they are ideologically condemned and opposed does not make them non-Heathens, and such an attempt is a self-defeating effort doomed to failure. The challenge with them (my sentiment that you said was a "marvelous idea") is out speaking their political utilization of Heathenry, and showing that it is more than a sword and shield to the alt-right.

The "plug and play eclectics" who you decry as picking a random Germanic god and goddess to slot into the WotY are Wiccans, so the only issue a Heathen might have there is a loose-and-fast usage of Germanic gods. Just as their usage of Celtic and Egyptian gods is. They might call a holiday Yule and do their thing with it, but they don't call themselves Heathens.

Heathenry has holidays following a cyclical yearly pattern, which one could consider a "wheel," but I know of no Heathen group that calls it the Wheel of the Year, or celebrates holidays like Beltane or Lughnasadh.

Hard Reconstructionists aren't the only ones with a right to the term Heathen, it's not "their term" or was not despoiled by them. Such a view is also a minority view, so if you're wanting to choose another descriptor it's pretty much all on you. (Generally speaking). But harrumphing and saying a large group of people who worship Germanic/Scandinavian gods "aren't Heathens" because they're not sticking to the letter of what we know of the Viking Age isn't bound to be a successful campaign.

 

[DanishCrow]

Seems like even the youth media is picking up on the problem: Racists Are Threatening to Take Over Paganism

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Aye, I read that article as well, but I honestly think it's a bit haphazard, alarmist, and reckless. Yes, racism is a problem within Heathenry, but I hardly think they're "threatening" to take over.

 

[DanishCrow]

Oh, no doubt, Vice is **** (at least their chief editor is no longer a straight up nazi), but it's interesting that the hip media takes an interest in the subject.

 

[Hildeburh]

We've had this discussion before (so I don't expect this to go very far) but no, it has not. Heathenry (and thus Heathen) applies to Germanic Contemporary Paganism, which includes traditions continuing pre-chrsitian beliefs of Scandinavian and Germanic peoples. Sometimes it includes Slavic beliefs. That's it - full stop. Unlike Wicca it does not include Celtic, Greek, Roman, Etruscan, Egyptian, Canaanite, Asian, or indigenous American beliefs.

Agreed. Pre Christian beliefs hold on to that thought.

You mean stop them from using it? The first groups that you mention (Wotansfolk and ToW) are Heathens. That they are ideologically condemned and opposed does not make them non-Heathens, and such an attempt is a self-defeating effort doomed to failure. The challenge with them (my sentiment that you said was a "marvelous idea") is out speaking their political utilization of Heathenry, and showing that it is more than a sword and shield to the alt-right.

No, I don't mean stop them from using it quite the opposite, let them use it. Thought that was kind of obvious from my last post where i said, " Is it time to choose another descriptor for ourselves, rather than use one originally chosen for us by Christians and despoiled by racists, LARPERS and eclectics?"

Personally I prefer fyrnsidu (old customs) and think that this descriptor is becoming more popular. Never been much of a fan of the word heathen it was too general when it was originally coined and its too general now.

The "plug and play eclectics" who you decry as picking a random Germanic god and goddess to slot into the WotY are Wiccans, so the only issue a Heathen might have there is a loose-and-fast usage of Germanic gods. Just as their usage of Celtic and Egyptian gods is. They might call a holiday Yule and do their thing with it, but they don't call themselves Heathens.

I guess your new to pagan chat groups, man the discussions I've had with wiccanesque heathens would curl your toes.

Heathenry has holidays following a cyclical yearly pattern, which one could consider a "wheel," but I know of no Heathen group that calls it the Wheel of the Year, or celebrates holidays like Beltane or Lughnasadh.

No, they rename the eight sabbats to give them a heathen gloss but there is no denying the inspiration. Have you ever googled Asatru holidays? Go for it and come back and tell me they are not inspired by the eight sabbats of wicca. Ever asked yourself why there is eight? Where in our sources are there eight celebrations? Start here:

Heathen holidays - Wikipedia

Or here, they have thrown in a ninth "remembrence day"

http://odinsvolk.ca/O.V.A. - SACRED CALENDER.htm

Ostara....what? That is a Wicca sabbat! Walpurgis night....oh! Dear gods isn't that the day named after a Christian saint. Spring and autumn equinox sorry, pretty hard to celebrate spring and autumn when your calander recognises two seasons; winter and summer.

Or here.

The Asatru Community

Looks like the wheel of the year to me and there's Ostara again and Walpurgis! Oh, my 12 days of Yule, couldn't get more Christian than that or neowiccan. Our sources (Hakon the Good) clearly states there a three days of Yule, or more correctly three nights. Oh and yes, there is spring and autumn again.

Notice how they all adhere to the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory VIII not on the traditional lunar Germanic calendar. So not only Wicca inspired but Christian inspired.

Hard Reconstructionists aren't the only ones with a right to the term Heathen, it's not "their term" or was not despoiled by them. Such a view is also a minority view, so if you're wanting to choose another descriptor it's pretty much all on you. (Generally speaking). But harrumphing and saying a large group of people who worship Germanic/Scandinavian gods "aren't Heathens" because they're not sticking to the letter of what we know of the Viking Age isn't bound to be a successful campaign.

Don't believe I have ever said that they did, in fact I believe the opposite, time to reconsider the word heathen, personally I have retired it, I prefer frynsidu. You either follow our lore or you ape neowiccan and Christian lore and give it a heathen gloss. You can't have it both ways, either your practice is based on old customs or its based on new customs. I get a little tired of people bleating when the obvious is pointed out to them or "heathens" that know fluff all about our lore and are happy to make stuff up.


PS. its just Reconstructionist or Germanic reconstructionist not hard reconstructionist. Reconstructionism is a methodology, hard and soft don't apply.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Hilde, I've very little interest in butting heads with this again.

 

[Hildeburh]

Agreed dude

PS. I see you mix germanic heathenry with Slavic paganism. The Volga vikings or the Rus had their base in Kiev and Novgorod, the Islamic text written by Ibn Khurradadhbih (840-50) , states that the Rus were ethnically cognate with the Slavs; the term used is Saqāliba. The term Saqāliba now seems to be translated by academics as meaning Scandinavians, Finno-Ugrians and various Slavic groups.

There are over 20 text in Arabic from 850-1040 that mention the Rus.

I haven't read this yet but I thought you might like to read it;

New Perspectives on Eastern Vikings/Rus in Arabic Sources

 

[DanishCrow]

Good stuff, Hildeburh, thanks!

 

[Hildeburh]

Good stuff, Hildeburh, thanks!

Glad you enjoyed it. I still haven't read it but it's on my list of things to do .

I read your article, it's always alarming when Germanic paganism is used to promote white supremacy. Racism should not be dismissed or downplayed in any context; good to see that pagan groups have banded together to denounce heathenry that promotes hatred and misuse of our folkway. I have to say racism is one of the reasons I don't call myself a Heathen any more; I just don't want to be tarred with the same brush.

Most of these far right groups and individuals identify more with Armanism and Ariosophy than with historical Germanic paganism. Odinism as a form of reconstructionism? Haven't spoken to one reconstructionist that would call themselves an Odinist, the term is used by far right white supremacists not by reconstructionists.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Odinism as a form of reconstructionism? Haven't spoken to one reconstructionist that would call themselves an Odinist, the term is used by far right white supremacists not by reconstructionists.

Well, I don't know where you live, but here in England we have the Odinic Rite, the Odinic Fellowship, and the Odinshof. On the other hand, the group you'd probably dislike, the Hammarens Ordens Sallskap, won't worship Odin!

 

[Hildeburh]

Well, I don't know where you live, but here in England we have the Odinic Rite, the Odinic Fellowship, and the Odinshof. On the other hand, the group you'd probably dislike, the Hammarens Ordens Sallskap, won't worship Odin!

I live in Australia, unfortunately the birth place of Alexander Rudd Mills, a pioneer of 20th C. Odinism. Mills was an ariosophist, anti semite, fascist and Nazi sympathiser. The Odinic Rite of Australia still considers Mills a pioneer and conducts pilgrimages to his grave site.

The Odinic Rite in England was founded by Yoewell who was influenced by John Gibbs Bailey, both of whom were members of the British Union of Fascists (BUF) . The BUF was fascist, pro Nazi and anti semetic; it even used the SS insignia. In 1973 Yoewell formed The Committee for the Restoration of the Odinic Rite which was renamed in 1980 to The Odinic Rite, it is as folkish as the Australian OR; it's founding slogan was "faith, folk and family.

Whilst there are universalist and folkish groups that both use the names Odinist/ism, the most high profile Odinist groups are white supremacists. Folkish or universalists, none of the Odinist groups I have seen thus far can be considered reconstructionist. You just have to read their websites to figure that they do not use a reconstructionist methodology.

 

[Wotans Krieger]

Well, I don't know where you live, but here in England we have the Odinic Rite, the Odinic Fellowship, and the Odinshof. On the other hand, the group you'd probably dislike, the Hammarens Ordens Sallskap, won't worship Odin!

Woden's Folk - Honour and Loyalty