Raise Your Hand if You Didn't Know That 4 X 4 Lumber is Actually 3 1/2 X 3 1/2

[Skwim]

*sigh* Okay, everyone put your hands down. Don't feel bad, your not the only ones who evidently took sewing instead of shop in high school.

"Home Depot, Menards face lawsuits over lumber size description

MILWAUKEE — Two home improvements stores are accused of deceiving the buyers of four-by-four boards, the big brother to the ubiquitous two-by-four.

The alleged deception: Menards and Home Depot (HD) market and sell the hefty lumber as four-by-fours without specifying that the boards actually measure 3½ inches by 3½ inches.

The lawsuits against the retailers would-be class actions, filed within five days of each other in federal court for the Northern District of Illinois. Attorneys from the same Chicago law firm represent the plaintiffs in both cases. Each suit seeks more than $5 million.

“Defendant has received significant profits from its false marketing and sale of its dimensional lumber products,” the action against Menards contends.

The retailers say the allegations are bogus. It is common knowledge and longstanding industry practice, they say, that names such as two-by-four or four-by-four do not describe the width and thickness of those pieces of lumber.

Rather, the retailers say, those are “nominal” designations accepted in government-approved industry standards, which also specify actual minimum dimensions — 1½ inches by 3½ inches for a two-by-four, for example, and 3½ inches by 3½ inches for a four-by-four.

“Anybody who’s in the trades or construction knows that,” said Tim Stich, a carpentry instructor at Milwaukee Area Technical College.
source

​

FYI, the government-approved industry standards:

If you want to know the why of this click HERE

.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I knew about this. Its called 'Marketing', so its legal or something. Did you know that a 1/3 Lb burger is bigger than a 1/4 Lb burger?

 

[Skwim]

I knew about this. Its called 'Marketing', so its legal or something. Did you know that a 1/3 Lb burger is bigger than a 1/4 Lb burger?

NO WAY!!! ... Everyone knows that three is smaller than four.

.

 

[Kemosloby]

That's rediculous since those measurements are basically the standard everywhere.

 

[sun rise]

Years and years ago I had to replace some slats on a porch and found out that an inch was not an inch any longer. We know that a dollar is not a dollar. And so numbers become ever more meaningless and I have a billion dollars in my pocket and am 100 ft tall.

 

[Onyx]

I could be wrong, but dont the measurements include the wood wasted by the thick saw blades used to mill the boards? Like 4" board - 1/2" blade = 3-1/2" product?

 

[Sunstone]

Back when I was doing light carpentry, the dimensions were explained to me thus: The boards are cut while wet to one dimension, and then kiln dried to a smaller dimension. I don't know if that's true, but that's how it was explained to me. Whatever the case, the true dimensions of boards are common knowledge among carpenters and others. And the way things are is the way they've been for decades -- at least decades.

 

[Skwim]

I could be wrong, but dont the measurements include the wood wasted by the thick saw blades used to mill the boards? Like 4" board - 1/2" blade = 3-1/2" product?

From what I read it's all explained in the "If you want to know the why of this" link I put in the OP.

.

 

[Onyx]

From what I read it's all explained in the "If you want to know the why of this" link I put in the OP.

I overlooked the PDF, very interesting thanks.

 

[icehorse]

150 years ago a 2x4 was BIGGER than 2 inches x 4 inches. I know because I've done remodeling on very old homes. My understanding is that a lot of it has to do with economics. As building practices have become more advanced, structurally sound buildings can be built using smaller dimensions of wood.

Cool OP!

 

[Brickjectivity]

I could be wrong, but dont the measurements include the wood wasted by the thick saw blades used to mill the boards? Like 4" board - 1/2" blade = 3-1/2" product?

I have been told that that advertised measurements used to be accurate some decades ago.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's worth pointing out here that Lowe's lost a similar lawsuit three years ago:

Lowe’s ordered to pay 2x4 settlement

Menard's and Home Depot should have known this was coming. They could have adjusted their product descriptions; they chose not to.

It's silly - anyone who's been even a little bit exposed to carpentry knows that the nominal sizes aren't the actual sizes. Still... after that first lawsuit, they should have known better.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Not true when i built my 3 story wooden house in NSW ...but then i did cut the Iron Bark trees from the 50 acre forest i built it in,
and the local mill at the end of the road milled it for me, 4 x 4 was. as were the 3 x 12 floorboards ..

 

[Twilight Hue]

Shows what happens when lying is perfectly acceptable. You should get what's advertised or at least a disclaimer.

 

[DavidFirth]

I got educated about this recently at Home Depot. They guy just said, "That's just the way they make 'em." We measured the thickness of the wood and found that 4" = 3.5".

 

[Milton Platt]

*sigh* Okay, everyone put your hands down. Don't feel bad, your not the only ones who evidently took sewing instead of shop in high school.

"Home Depot, Menards face lawsuits over lumber size description

MILWAUKEE — Two home improvements stores are accused of deceiving the buyers of four-by-four boards, the big brother to the ubiquitous two-by-four.

The alleged deception: Menards and Home Depot (HD) market and sell the hefty lumber as four-by-fours without specifying that the boards actually measure 3½ inches by 3½ inches.

The lawsuits against the retailers would-be class actions, filed within five days of each other in federal court for the Northern District of Illinois. Attorneys from the same Chicago law firm represent the plaintiffs in both cases. Each suit seeks more than $5 million.

“Defendant has received significant profits from its false marketing and sale of its dimensional lumber products,” the action against Menards contends.

The retailers say the allegations are bogus. It is common knowledge and longstanding industry practice, they say, that names such as two-by-four or four-by-four do not describe the width and thickness of those pieces of lumber.

Rather, the retailers say, those are “nominal” designations accepted in government-approved industry standards, which also specify actual minimum dimensions — 1½ inches by 3½ inches for a two-by-four, for example, and 3½ inches by 3½ inches for a four-by-four.

“Anybody who’s in the trades or construction knows that,” said Tim Stich, a carpentry instructor at Milwaukee Area Technical College.
source

​

FYI, the government-approved industry standards:

If you want to know the why of this click HERE

.

Yeah, my grandfather was a carpenter and so I have known this all of my life, and I'm 67 now.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah I've known some carpenters in my life, so even I knew this.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's rediculous since those measurements are basically the standard everywhere.

Anyone who doesn't know the actual size of a 2x4 shouldn't be buying one.
Next, the same lawyers will be suing McDonalds for having no ham in their
hamburgers, or Coke for having no cocaine in it.

I don't think we should follow Dick The Butcher's admonition to
kill all the lawyers, but we ought to give most of'm a dirt nap.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's worth pointing out here that Lowe's lost a similar lawsuit three years ago:

Lowe’s ordered to pay 2x4 settlement

Menard's and Home Depot should have known this was coming. They could have adjusted their product descriptions; they chose not to.

It's silly - anyone who's been even a little bit exposed to carpentry knows that the nominal sizes aren't the actual sizes. Still... after that first lawsuit, they should have known better.

If they called a 2x4 by some other name, normally aware customers wouldn't recognize it.
Hey....where do you stand on suing McDonalds for no ham in the hamburgrer?

In the sizes of many products, there is what is called "nominal" sizing, ie, it is a name
which represents a standard without the name itself being a precise technical specification.
Examples....
- 1/4-20 screw is less than .250" in diameter.
- #10-32 screw is about 3/16" in diameter....not 10" in diameter.
- Ford Pinto is not a horse at all. Neither is the Mustang.
- 10' long 2x4 isn't 10'. It's slightly longer.
- 3/4" pipe might or might not be 3/4" in outside or inside diameter.
It depends upon whether it's iron, plastic, or copper.
This is further complicated by whether it's schedule 40, 80 or other.

Leave it to lawyers to make stupidity one of Americastan's largest industries.
The Baron Harkonnon had the right idea.....heart plugs. Install one in every
lawyer. Pull the plug when one files a suit like this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If they called a 2x4 by some other name, normally aware customers wouldn't recognize it.

So have the sign say "2x4 (nominal)."

Hey....where do you stand on suing McDonalds for no ham in the hamburgrer?

I think you know as well as I do that "hamburger" refers to "Hamburg"... as in the style of the patty.

In the sizes of many products, there is what is called "nominal" sizing, ie, it is a name
which represents a standard without the name itself being a precise technical specification.
Examples....
- 1/4-20 screw is less than .250" in diameter.

Then that could have the same issues as the wood sizes.

- #10-32 screw is about 3/16" in diameter....not 10" in diameter.

Makes sense, since "#10" doesn't mean "10 inches"... nominal or actual.

- Ford Pinto is not a horse at all. Neither is the Mustang.

.., and isn't marketed as such.

- 10' long 2x4 isn't 10'. It's slightly longer.

Giving people extra doesn't generally end up with your customers suing you.

- 3/4" pipe might or might not be 3/4" in outside or inside diameter.
It depends upon whether it's iron, plastic, or copper.
This is further complicated by whether it's schedule 40, 80 or other.

Yep. That could be problematic, too.