Rambling about an idea on what has happened to the European gods after the Saxon wars.

[беспокойный путешественни]

I think I've found a solution to the problem that the gods known to us (at least by name...) have a family tree break of about a thousand years, so we don't really know whether their great-grandchildren have taken over their job in the meantime. (What happened in the pantheon since the Saxon wars? Has any of them retired between then and now?)

We know from pan-European traditions that there have been generations of gods in all (local) cultures at all times, who have virtually taken over from one another; in other words, a sufficient number of gods who have merged with other gods or in turn split up into several other gods. I'll stick with my favourite example, Loki, because I get on best with Loki (yes, my friends like me anyway ): There will always be a god villain, a god of the cynics. If "the original" - and we don't even necessarily know that, as most people don't know whether gods live to be 30, 300 or 30 million years old on average - has died in the meantime, there are really only three options:

• Ragnarök has already happened. I think we would know that.
• Ragnarök has not yet happened, but the Völuspá is wrong, i.e. Loki - the only one - has died and is NOT leading any boats to Asgard. But if we want to shake up the very foundations of our faith like this, then some things will be very difficult to understand and explain, including our own experiences of the gods.
• Ragnarök has not yet happened and the Völuspá is also correct, i.e. Loki - one god who carries on Loki's role (and nickname?) - fulfills the prophecy. That sounds the most logical in my opinion.

What if we consider the "right" gods to be our friends, but our assignment of "1 name = 1 god" is wrong? Even among contemporary pagans, we still can't agree on whether Thor is called Þórr, Перýн or Donar. Are they one and the same deity or do they just take the place of the (Norse, Russian, German, ...) god of thunder, respectively?

At the moment, I tend to regard the names of gods as generic terms. It's not Loki, it's "the current Loki", more or less as a profession like others were and are bakers or blacksmiths. If the current Loki (see my assumption that "a god's life" could theoretically, leaving out murders, also be "a becoming and passing away of mankind", which would also work well with everything we know from the Edda) is still the same as the original Loki, this is not even heresy. If he is not... well, it still is not, I guess.

As always, this idea of mine is not fully developed, but I'm working on it.

 

[The Hammer]

You're missing a 4th option. That Ragnarok is something that is constantly happening all around us. The chaotic act of creation - destruction. Imo

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

To argue with sufficient precision, I have also forgotten Iðunn's apples, which would at least answer the question of the lifespan of a god. But if Ragnarök is something that happens around us all the time, why are the sun and moon still in place? As far as I can see, life on Earth is still a long way from being completely wiped out at the moment.

 

[The Hammer]

To argue with sufficient precision, I have also forgotten Iðunn's apples, which would at least answer the question of the lifespan of a god. But if Ragnarök is something that happens around us all the time, why are the sun and moon still in place? As far as I can see, life on Earth is still a long way from being completely wiped out at the moment.

I don't think the metaphysics is meant to be taken literally. At least not until the heat death of the universe.

Then Mani and Sol also gets eaten during every lunar/solar eclipse, and these times were considered inauspicious and very bad luck to be out and about.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

I don't think the metaphysics is meant to be taken literally. At least not until the heat death of the universe.

And/or the water death of the universe?

Metaphysics is often a bad counsellor in religious questions, that's true. (Religion itself is often an opponent of metaphysics.) But if Ragnarök is in full swing, the gods have other things to worry about than humanity at the moment. That doesn't seem to be a satisfactory solution, as it would take away the basis of pan-European paganism (and certainly some other forms of the faith), would it?

 

[The Hammer]

And/or the water death of the universe?

Metaphysics is often a bad counsellor in religious questions, that's true. (Religion itself is often an opponent of metaphysics.) But if Ragnarök is in full swing, the gods have other things to worry about than humanity at the moment. That doesn't seem to be a satisfactory solution, as it would take away the basis of pan-European paganism (and certainly some other forms of the faith), would it?

No, the entropic heat death of the universe.

But either way. What I mean by metaphysics, is the inner workings and symbolism behind the story itself, and the message it portrays.

Ragnarok doesn't need a defined time/place in order to be correct. Ragnarok is the inner workings of the shamans journey through life and the other worlds. The inner personal sacrifice and death of the Self that manifests as our name/personality in the here and now.

But it also is the death of everything at the end of the universe, because at that time All will experience the Journey.to the other worlds.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

No, the entropic heat death of the universe.

Ah, but Surtur's firestorm happens after the flood. Anyway, details.

The inner personal sacrifice and death of the Self that manifests as our name/personality in the here and now.

This is actually a good point. It looks like I'm going to have to rethink my line of argument. How indelicate.

 

[The Hammer]

Ah, but Surtur's firestorm happens after the flood. Anyway, details.

Yes, as an inner journey you feel the waters of life before you feel/see the fires of purification.

This is actually a good point. It looks like I'm going to have to rethink my line of argument. How indelicate.

I'm glad I gave you a different perspective to look at

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

I've been thinking about it and I have a very basic mental problem: If you're right (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), everything we know about the gods is nothing more than a figment of our imagination and the idea of a fulltrui is little more than the teddy bear we had as a toddler. But if I want to (have to!) assume, based on everything I know about the gods, that Loki has chosen me as his representative in the limited circle of my familiars, am I Loki myself?

 

[The Hammer]

I've been thinking about it and I have a very basic mental problem: If you're right (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), everything we know about the gods is nothing more than a figment of our imagination and the idea of a fulltrui is little more than the teddy bear we had as a toddler.

I do not see it this way. Not as figments of the imagination meaning that they are purely made up in the mind of the believer. But our mind is all we have to interpret our interactions with the Gods. It's our limit.

But if I want to (have to!) assume, based on everything I know about the gods, that Loki has chosen me as his representative in the limited circle of my familiars, am I Loki myself?

Sort of. We and everything around us are part of the Gods. So inasmuch as you are also Odin and Freya.

Loki chose you. That's a relationship to cultivate. For whatever it is worth and regardless of whether or not it is logical in the traditional sense.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

So inasmuch as you are also Odin and Freya.

I keep an idol of Odin on my shrine - next to the idol of Loki. Because an irrational hunch tells me that I shouldn't mess things up with Odin just because Loki wants to be my friend. Freya... is fickle, actually more complicated (in my life) than Odin. Of course, her gifts have brought me many a happy hour, but I have so far neglected to thank her for them. Maybe that's why it doesn't always work out.

Loki chose you. That's a relationship to cultivate.

I try, and I often fail. But it feels like the right thing to do.

I am autistic, and as such it is extremely difficult to reconcile the metaphysical part with reason. Logical thinking is a natural part of my life. I don't know if you understand what's on my mind right now, but I'm glad you're taking the time to explain to me why things are the way they are.

 

[Bear Wild]

I think I've found a solution to the problem that the gods known to us (at least by name...) have a family tree break of about a thousand years, so we don't really know whether their great-grandchildren have taken over their job in the meantime. (What happened in the pantheon since the Saxon wars? Has any of them retired between then and now?)

We know from pan-European traditions that there have been generations of gods in all (local) cultures at all times, who have virtually taken over from one another; in other words, a sufficient number of gods who have merged with other gods or in turn split up into several other gods. I'll stick with my favourite example, Loki, because I get on best with Loki (yes, my friends like me anyway ): There will always be a god villain, a god of the cynics. If "the original" - and we don't even necessarily know that, as most people don't know whether gods live to be 30, 300 or 30 million years old on average - has died in the meantime, there are really only three options:

• Ragnarök has already happened. I think we would know that.
• Ragnarök has not yet happened, but the Völuspá is wrong, i.e. Loki - the only one - has died and is NOT leading any boats to Asgard. But if we want to shake up the very foundations of our faith like this, then some things will be very difficult to understand and explain, including our own experiences of the gods.
• Ragnarök has not yet happened and the Völuspá is also correct, i.e. Loki - one god who carries on Loki's role (and nickname?) - fulfills the prophecy. That sounds the most logical in my opinion.

What if we consider the "right" gods to be our friends, but our assignment of "1 name = 1 god" is wrong? Even among contemporary pagans, we still can't agree on whether Thor is called Þórr, Перýн or Donar. Are they one and the same deity or do they just take the place of the (Norse, Russian, German, ...) god of thunder, respectively?

At the moment, I tend to regard the names of gods as generic terms. It's not Loki, it's "the current Loki", more or less as a profession like others were and are bakers or blacksmiths. If the current Loki (see my assumption that "a god's life" could theoretically, leaving out murders, also be "a becoming and passing away of mankind", which would also work well with everything we know from the Edda) is still the same as the original Loki, this is not even heresy. If he is not... well, it still is not, I guess.

As always, this idea of mine is not fully developed, but I'm working on it.

All of the gods had many names or epitaphs that allowed people to connect with them. There were no "right gods" and to say they were your friends is hard for me to comprehend and becomes almost to human like for me. Rather there were times when one would connect with Frey, or Freya, or Thor, or Sif depending on what relationship you needed to honor. Different cultures might have similar patterns of relationship to the primal forces of our world but with variations on perception. Are they the same is not so relevant as can you experience them within a context you can understand. As for Loki he was recognized though Odins wisdom to be accepted even if disliked. Loki keeps the gods and goddesses more humble in order to maintain the critical balances in our world. This balance of chaos and order is recognized in the myth of Ragnarök. If you contain Fenrir too much and not accept aspects of the wild, then Fenrir will break free and bring chaos back into the order. This is the intricate balance of Thor's hammer and the giants. Both are essential to the balance of the world. To recognize Loki not a evil or bad is to understand the importance of this balance. To call on Loki is to call on a degree of chaos in one's life which can be destructive or transforming. One of the most powerful aspects of polytheism over monotheism is to understand that there are different aspects in one's life where each god or goddess plays a critical role of transformation and creating balance.