Rape as in "Crime of assault" and what is proper justice

[stvdv]

Rape as in "Crime of assault" and what is proper justice
(I keep the broad meaning in mind ... the fewer the assaults the better the world)

Note: Spoilers can be skipped, just some thoughts I got along the way.

Why this thread? Yesterday I discussed "getting over emotional traumas" when the other said:

When a raped girl "can't get over it", it's her fault, not the rapist; there are many girls who get over it quickly

I was shocked ... he spiritual? ... I already explained my view 1 year ago ... no chance to change?

• Should I have corrected/educated him or let him find out himself?
• How come, that he thinks this way? Do you agree/disagree?
  
• Is such a view dangerous, could it opens the door to rape?
  
• Is such a view just plain narcissistic, or how you see this?

Info from wiki on Rape:

Originally, rape had no sexual connotation and is still used in other contexts in English.

In Roman law, it or raptus was classified as a form of crimen vis, "crime of assault".[19][20] Raptus referred to the abduction of a woman against the will of the man under whose authority she lived, and sexual intercourse was not a necessary element. Other definitions of rape have changed over time.

Spoiler: Some personal thoughts after reading this definition:

The original definition "Crime of assault" is interesting, as it includes all/everything.
It became "assault of women" .. understandably .. men are stronger, women more empathetic.
It was not necessarily sexual .. which seems good, as pain (also emotional) is pain
It has been extended to "assault of men" nowadays, so again closer to the original "Crime of assault".
There even has been a court case about "assault of animals" (cruelty done to animals).
I like the original definition "crime of assault". Cruel thought begets word begets action (closes heart)
If you are cruel to animals, you become "cruel minded", heart closes, cruel to humans easily starts

On RF we talk a lot about truth, what is right/wrong action, so some thoughts and questions popped up:

Spoiler: Some thoughts:

To stop rape, awareness "rape is wrong" is needed (don't do to others...)
Emotional impact of rape can be more difficult to heal than the physical impact
Education is important, the sooner the better. Lots of violence in "the home", so start there.
If you do a crime, you must do the time. If parents "do this crime", they need brainwashing/education too

Spoiler: Some questions popping up:

Can you blame the raped one for not "getting over it" (soon), like the man I talked with (quote above)?
Can you blame a pretty woman for getting raped, just because she looks too "yummy"?
Can you blame a woman for getting raped if she walks around flashing her breasts?
Should there be "dressing rules" or should there be only "don't rape rules"?
Should we always blame the rapist? Or are there circumstances that you shouldn't blame the rapist?
Should we always jail the rapist? Or are there circumstances that you shouldn't jail the rapist?
Sometimes the "raped" becomes the "rapist", because (s)he could not "get over it"
Can you still blame the rapist when (s)he was raped as a child (considering the above)?

Spoiler: Some scenarios popping up:

Should a raped girl always be free to choose herself to have abortion or not (pregnant of rapist)?
(excluded scenarios like "raped by alien whose offspring will destroy the earth etc" ... just normal cases)

Would you jail/sentence a girl who is raped, but managed to get away, by biting of the penis of the rapist?
Would you jail/sentence a girl who is raped, but managed to get away, by shooting before rapist "shoots"?

Would you answer differently if: a)Victim's age 6/12/18/81? + b)Boy instead of Girl + c)Prostitute Girl/Boy?
Would you answer differently if: a)Raped 1min + b)Raped by 10 rapists + c)Raped continuously for 1 year?

Would you report the raped person to police if you knew the above, to allow justice to take it's course?

Knowing the saying "Only speak when spoken to"
Knowing the saying "Only speak if it improves the silence"
Would you still report the raped person, considering the above?
(Remember: there is no need/obligation to point out mistakes of others always)
(e.g. Hindu anecdotes: Hunter asks saint if he saw the deer. Saint replies "mouth can't see, eyes can't speak".)

If you walk in a forest and see a man about to rape a girl. No smartphone available nor police. The man is very strong, you and the girl have no chance, and he starts to rape the girl. But you have a gun. Would you kill him, if that is the only way to stop the man from raping the girl?

* Rape in the original meaning "Crime of assault" happens a lot (esp. in families/workplace)
* Physical rape happens, but even more "emotional rape", sometimes even leading to suicide
* Fathers belittling their child can have a life long impact, often leading to depression or even suicide
* Can you blame someone for suicide; all have survival instinct, people don't easily commit suicide
* It happens a lot that people feel shamed after being raped, while it should be the rapist feeling shame
* Sometimes the "raped" becomes the "rapist". Difficult situation ... give therapy or jail or both?
* Being raped is a life/death situation. If killing rapist is the only way out, would you send victim to jail?
* Do you agree with the law in your (other) country on rape, or is your "feeling" on right judgment different
(e.g. No "blow"job, but a "cut"job seems fair to me; of course a fair warning ... e.g. national sms "cut"job alert)

Summarized into a poll:
01: Raped people should never be blamed/shamed for being raped
02: Raped people shouldn't be blamed/shamed for not being able to recover (**1)
03: Raped people shouldn't be hold responsible for whatever they do to their rapist (**2)
04: Raped people shouldn't be hold responsible for whatever they do to their rapist during the rape
05: Raped people are responsible for what they do to other people (being raped is no excuse)
06: A raped girl should be free to choose herself to have abortion or not (if pregnant of rapist)
07: Rapists are always to blame for raping (and whatever happens because of them raping others)
08: Rapists who were raped as a child, need to be "treated"(judged) differently from other rapists (**3)
09: I wouldn't report a raped person to the police if I knew (s)he killed the rapist during the rape
10: If killing was the only option to prevent my wife/daughter from being raped, I'd kill the rapist
(**1) See first quote
(**2) Kind of karma thing (rapist had it coming)... eye for an eye ... rape for a rape. Better get it over with now then in a next life
(**3) Being raped shapes you; we don't judge tigers for killing, because that's what they learned "to be normal"

Just share your ideas....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just share your ideas....

My idea: it's inappropriate to be using a subject like this as fodder for a trivial internet discussion.

 

[stvdv]

My idea: it's inappropriate to be using a subject like this as fodder for a trivial internet discussion.

Does not apply to me, as I do take my posts and replies serious (esp. this subject, as it is personal experience). So, I guess it depends on who is writing and reading.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does not apply to me, as I do take my posts and replies serious (esp. this subject, as it is personal experience). So, I guess it depends on who is writing and reading.

You have my permission to discuss these issues.
Anyone who doesn't like it should consider just ignoring the thread.

 

[Rival]

THREAD MOVED TO GENERAL DEBATES.​

 

[Father Heathen]

You have my permission to discuss these issues.
Anyone who doesn't like it should consider just ignoring the thread.

Such a topic needs to be discussed in my opinion, albeit delicately given the sensitive nature.

 

[Revoltingest]

Should a topic needs to be discussed in my opinion, albeit delicately given the sensitive nature.

Just don't mention TV shows.

 

[Friend of Mara]

If it is acceptable to stand your ground in the case of a robbery then it more than follows that you should be able to stand your ground against a rape. In some circles rape is seen as the worst form of violence one can take. I tend to agree. The only ones I did not agree with in the poll was what other people also seemed to disagree with. The person isn't responsible for "anything" they do the rapist is a bit open ended. I can think of a large number of hypothetical situations where I wouldn't agree with what a person might do to a rapist (even their own).

Having been raped doesn't give you an excuse to commit other crimes. I think being raped can give one an excuse to be rude or to make life decisions that others might not like but don't cause specific harm.

In the same vein being raped in the past doesn't give you any more leeway than someone who was mugged in the past attempting to mug someone else.

I dunno I don't think any of these takes are hot or controversial.

 

[stvdv]

If it is acceptable to stand your ground in the case of a robbery then it more than follows that you should be able to stand your ground against a rape.

I agree. Though the Law in Holland is quite strict about it. Things get tricky, when emotions are involved. Who is responsible when (rape)provoked?

Below are some Laws as we have in Holland:

If you catch a burglar in the act, you can arrest him. But you should not use unnecessary violence or weapons. If you do, you are guilty of "self-direction". That means punishing perpetrators of crimes without involving legal proceedings, which is a criminal offense.
....In any case, it is not recommended to act as a judge, but what if you find yourself in a situation where you still have to use violence? Whether you can hit a burglar depends on two legal principles: self defense and excessive force. self defense is explained in article 41 of the Criminal Code as using violence for “the necessary defense of one's own or someone else's body, chastity or good against instantaneous, unlawful sexual assault.” Provided the violence is proportional, you may use violence to defend yourself.
....Proportional means that no more or more serious violence may be used than is necessary to stop the burglar. Necessary means that you have no choice but to use violence. It is therefore preferable to escape through the back door or to lock someone up. (But be careful with that too, because before you know it you will be accused of unlawful detention).

Can you arm yourself against burglars? And, for example, put a baseball bat under your bed? In any case, this can stand in the way of a successful appeal to self defense. By arming yourself you take the risk of escalation. There is a danger of using the weapon too quickly. Having weapons in the house is not allowed anyway, but that is irrelevant when it comes to burglary. For example, a woman was acquitted after shooting intruders in her house (excess violence as a result of her being raped), but she was convicted of illegal possession of weapons.

I was glad to read:
"Violence, if proportional, is allowed to defend yourself"
"Proportional means that no more or more serious violence may be used than is necessary to stop the burglar/rapist."

So, if killing is the only way to "not get raped", It seems that killing is okay. I am happy to know this, Seems fair to me.

 

[stvdv]

The person isn't responsible for "anything" they do the rapist is a bit open ended. I can think of a large number of hypothetical situations where I wouldn't agree with what a person might do to a rapist (even their own).

True.
I put it there to compare "violence response during the rape" with "violence response afterwards".

Personally I believe the rapist is 100% responsible, also when he is killed while raping (his karma).
A human body consists of: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual bodies. So my personal view on this is:
1) If the rapist violates you physically you are allowed to kill him, if that is the only way to escape the physical pain; okay according Dutch Law.
2) If the rapist violates you emotionally you are allowed to kill him, if that is the only way to escape the emotional pain; against Dutch Law probably.
*) IMO, rape is mostly about emotional pain. I mean all people have sex, that usually does not hurt physically, unless torture/violence is used.

This is not to debate this issue (probably many disagree). I just share my personal feelings of justice. But I am fully aware that killing someone brings it to another emotional level, so it's best to be very sure to know that "killing him is the only way to solve your emotional pain".

From my spiritual POV I would not want to kill the rapist, but I would not judge/jail a woman/man who kills the rapist for whatever reason
So, I would never choose to be a judge in this world. Would feel wrong to sentence/jail (free therapy at most) a raped person for harming his/her rapist

 

[stvdv]

You have my permission to discuss these issues.
Anyone who doesn't like it should consider just ignoring the thread.

Thank you. Seems good advice to me.

Such a topic needs to be discussed in my opinion, albeit delicately given the sensitive nature.

Seems right to me. Interesting though, considering the reply below.

Just don't mention TV shows.

Indeed, a lot of TV improvement is needed.

Very interesting thought. If rape is so sensitive, how would rape victims "look" at these TV shows I wonder
I can imagine they are glad it's on TV (in whatever form), because what is put in the spotlights gets addressed at least
I can also imagine it's good for them to see they are not the only ones AND that rape is taken serious now

 

[Friend of Mara]

I agree. Though the Law in Holland is quite strict about it. Things get tricky, when emotions are involved. Who is responsible when (rape)provoked?

Below are some Laws as we have in Holland:


I was glad to read:
"Violence, if proportional, is allowed to defend yourself"
"Proportional means that no more or more serious violence may be used than is necessary to stop the burglar/rapist."

So, if killing is the only way to "not get raped", It seems that killing is okay. I am happy to know this, Seems fair to me.

My only points of contention with this is

1) I would argue all rapes are unprovoked.
2) During assaults of any kind it is unclear to the extent in which a person is in danger. I might be interpreting this wrong though. An example is if someone is going to "hit" me I don't have any other reason to assume that this act of aggression will simply end with a bump on the noggin. So would it be disproportionate to use lethal force on someone who is bare handed if I have a weapon?

Or is it more along the lines of this scenario. Someone tries to rape me. I hit them with a bat. They are knocked out. So far so good. But if I continue to beat the unconscious man to death that would be excessive. On the second scenario I am in agreement.

 

[Father Heathen]

Seems right to me. Interesting though, considering the reply below.

Oh, he was referring to a different thread where everyone digressed and focused on a tv show that I mention as an example rather than on the actual thread topic itself.

 

[stvdv]

Who is responsible when (rape)provoked?

My only points of contention with this is

1) I would argue all rapes are unprovoked.

I meant with my above line "Who is responsible when the girl kills the rapist, considering that the rapist provoked her (with rape fear) to kill him"
My answer is simple. The "rapist had it coming", "self created karma". Girl goes always free. Such Laws might make him think twice maybe.

2) During assaults of any kind it is unclear to the extent in which a person is in danger. I might be interpreting this wrong though. An example is if someone is going to "hit" me I don't have any other reason to assume that this act of aggression will simply end with a bump on the noggin. So would it be disproportionate to use lethal force on someone who is bare handed if I have a weapon?

I don't know the word "noggin". But I think I get the meaning. I think it is best to not first ask him "what kind of assault you have in mind". Best would be to first shoot him, and then start asking the questions, unless you are a Master in karate and know you can handle his hands without gun.

Or is it more along the lines of this scenario. Someone tries to rape me. I hit them with a bat. They are knocked out. So far so good. But if I continue to beat the unconscious man to death that would be excessive. On the second scenario I am in agreement.

This is exactly what was meant in "Dutch Law" in the quote I gave. And even when you kill him, because of an emotional reaction, which you could not control, because of him raping you, I would not charge you for it (but a judge might).

 

[stvdv]

Oh, he was referring to a different thread where everyone digressed and focused on a tv show that I mention as an example rather than on the actual thread topic itself.

Okay, that might be, I missed out on that one.
Still, his remark was to the point here too.