Rape Culture is Real

[freethinker44]

thats ok, God wont tolerate mans bad behaviour indefinitely....eventually he will bring his own form of justice just as he has in the past.

We have enough knowledge now to know what is the right path and the choice is ours....but soon there wont be a choice.

What does this have to do with rape culture?

 

[Pegg]

What does this have to do with rape culture?

simply that it wont be around forever.

 

[LuisDantas]

I feel like you are convinced that a human being can become perfectly pure, perfectly nonviolent, perfectly moral. That may be true, but the conversation about comics hinges upon more than whether that is true. If it is true then, great; but if its not true then thinking it true is a mistake. In the latter case it would be better to come up with some kind of stop-gap solution instead of a complete surrender of all violence.

I fear I am just not following.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

simply that it wont be around forever.

Your sect's beliefs about god coming to "fix" things aren't helpful to finding actual solutions to this problem at all. Leave it out of this discussion, please.

 

[Pegg]

We have laws today that extent protections to me that my grandmother never had. She had tolerate abusive relationships because it was expected of women back then, and there were no laws against domestic violence and rape. Things were so bad for women when she was born that women had yet to gain to right to vote at the federal level.
But we still live in a patriarchal society where women are expected to be held accountable for the actions of men. If that was not the case, then rape victims would rarely be blamed for the crime, but "boys will be boys" is what they say when it comes to rape.

its also true that back in your grandmothers day, people didnt need to lock their doors at night, and kids could safely play out in the street.

As it is, times have certainly changed and while i dont disagree that domestic violence was around back then, but the violence out on the street was not as prevalent as it is today. It would have been a community outrage to hear of a rape taking place....yes, domestic abuse was prevalent but i suspect mostly kept hidden and therefore not reported.

sign of the times imo.

Actually many other non-human animals have sex for pleasure. Bonobos have alot (I mean ALOT) of sex, dolphins are known for have sex for group bonding, female porcupines have been observed masturbating themselves, and male dogs around the world don't even need another dog or even living organisms to start humping.

there are hundreds of thousands of species who dont. I dont think its wise to set a precedent for ourselves based on such small numbers.
Regardless of this, humans do have sex for pleasure, but that doesnt mean that it should be engaged in in the way animals do. If its within a loving monogmous relationship, then no one will get hurt.

How does the Bible set the standard of monogamy? King David had enough wives and concubines to sleep with several different women a day and not sleep with the same woman twice for over a year. There were also forced marriages, arranged marriages, rapists marrying their victim, and some other forms of marriage that would infuriate most people throughout the Western world.

When God created the first man, how many wives did he give to him? He gave only one wife. And the bible says "a man must stick to his wife"
That was the standard set by God....it was also the standard repeated by Christ in the gospels.

Just because men chose to have many wives, doesnt make their choice in harmony with Gods will. People have been doing things independently of Gods will for the past 6,000 odd years.... but eventually thing will have to go back to the original plan.

That is not the case though. Humans cultures have practiced some sort of polygamy far more frequently than monogamy. We're actually biologically at a half-way point between being monogamous and polygamous (based on the size of the male's testicles and the amount of sperm he can produce and the number and frequency of offspring a woman can produce). And I have to be honest, the swingers and other polygamous types I have known have had fewer marital problems than the "regular" monogamy crowd. I also don't see polygamous people having the same sort of trust issues monogamous couples have, though they do exist.
Actually just on this forum there are several members who are living in happy and satisfying polygamous relationships.

again, this is mans will. It stems from the wrong attitudes about women. Just because some men like to have a collection of women doesnt mean its right. Men should not be setting the standards of what is right and wrong, God should. And Gods standard is 'one man for one woman' because God holds to a higher view of women then men do.

If men viewed women the way God does, there would be no domestic violence or rape culture because a womans value would be treasured and her role in the family honoured and respected.

There are many men, Christian or otherwise, who abuse themselves. They abuse themselves, their wives, and their children.

true, this is also a sign of the times.

 

[Pegg]

Your sect's beliefs about god coming to "fix" things aren't helpful to finding actual solutions to this problem at all. Leave it out of this discussion, please.

there is only one fix to the solution... men must change their attitudes toward women, dont you agree?

and i dont think thats going to happen anytime soon when you consider the types of entrainment they indulge in.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

there is only one fix to the solution... men must change their attitudes toward women, dont you agree?

and i dont think thats going to happen anytime soon when you consider the types of entrainment they indulge in.

I think it is changing. I certainly don't believe it's gotten worse or that it was better in the past, and I think the evidence would bear that out.

 

[Sunstone]

I think it is changing. I certainly don't believe it's gotten worse or that it was better in the past, and I think the evidence would bear that out.

I agree. I think the long term trend has been for things to get better. A hundred or two hundred years ago, things were most likely much worse than they are today.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I fear I am just not following.

OK. It was a good conversation thanks.

 

[freethinker44]

there is only one fix to the solution... men must change their attitudes toward women, dont you agree?

and i dont think thats going to happen anytime soon when you consider the types of entrainment they indulge in.

How about "people must change their attitudes towards people", that way we can deal with problem as a whole and actually accomplish something.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

its also true that back in your grandmothers day, people didnt need to lock their doors at night, and kids could safely play out in the street.

The problem is the parents. They are too scared to let their kids out and play, so they don't. And crime has actually been decreasing in America. However, it is being reported on the news far more frequently than in years past. As for door locking, I've known many people here who don't do it, and I've heard hardly anyone in Canada does.

As it is, times have certainly changed and while i dont disagree that domestic violence was around back then, but the violence out on the street was not as prevalent as it is today. It would have been a community outrage to hear of a rape taking place....yes, domestic abuse was prevalent but i suspect mostly kept hidden and therefore not reported.

sign of the times imo.

A rape probably wouldn't have batted an eye. My mom (who was born in the 50's) had an abusive step dad, who did rape her and threaten her life, and the community as a whole did nothing except for one neighbor offering to take her until her step dad came for her and drug her back home. Rape was tolerated and to a point even expected and frequently excused. Only it wasn't rape, it was her "wifely duties" to be available any time her husband wanted sex.
And there was even more back then that were absolutely horrible, such as locking a physically deformed child or mentally handicapped child in a closet or basement where guests would not see this abominable child. Threatening, terrorizing, beating, raping, and killing black people, especially in the South, was tolerated.
A sign of the times is that though we have taken tremendous steps in the right direction, we still have along ways to go before we are anywhere close to equality.

there are hundreds of thousands of species who dont. I dont think its wise to set a precedent for ourselves based on such small numbers.
Regardless of this, humans do have sex for pleasure, but that doesnt mean that it should be engaged in in the way animals do. If its within a loving monogmous relationship, then no one will get hurt.

But the ones that are more like us do, and it is by no means a small number. Lots of other animals have sex for pleasure, or some reason other than procreation. And it doesn't matter what kind of romantic relationship you have, if you are in one you will get hurt. Being monogamous ensures nothing, except you are following cultural norms.

When God created the first man, how many wives did he give to him? He gave only one wife. And the bible says "a man must stick to his wife"
That was the standard set by God....it was also the standard repeated by Christ in the gospels.

If that is the standard then why are there so many exceptions? If Adam and Eve were the rule, then how do you end up with 700 wives and 300 concubines? No doubt the number is inflated (as it was common for those writing about their glorious kings to over-exaggerate), but if god set the standard that is supposed to be the rule, then how did anything else happen?

Just because men chose to have many wives, doesnt make their choice in harmony with Gods will. People have been doing things independently of Gods will for the past 6,000 odd years.... but eventually thing will have to go back to the original plan.

So if a woman chooses to have multiple husbands (and yes this model does exist) then is that in harmony with god's will?

again, this is mans will. It stems from the wrong attitudes about women. Just because some men like to have a collection of women doesnt mean its right. Men should not be setting the standards of what is right and wrong, God should. And Gods standard is 'one man for one woman' because God holds to a higher view of women then men do.

If men viewed women the way God does, there would be no domestic violence or rape culture because a womans value would be treasured and her role in the family honoured and respected.

Actually I think there are more polygamous women here than men. And if a man views his wife and daughters like God does, then he would see nothing wrong with selling them into slavery. And to top it off the daughter is not to be set free like males are.
And what if a woman doesn't want a family? What if she wants a career? Wants to travel? I've known many women like this, including that they do not want to have kids.
For many women, myself included, a family is a dull life with little-to-no fulfillment.

 

[dawny0826]

Topic for debate: do you believe rape culture exists? Is it as Kitchens writes a product from hysterical feminists? How do we all respond to sexual violence?

Do I believe that rape culture exists? Yes. It does and Maxwell provides thought provoking examples of it.

Is this a product from hysterical feminists?

Kitchens wrote the following:

On college campuses, obsession with eliminating “rape culture” has led to censorship and hysteria. At Boston University, student activists launched a petition demanding the cancellation of a Robin Thicke concert because the lyrics of his hit song “Blurred Lines” allegedly celebrate “systemic patriarchy and sexual oppression.” (The lyrics may not exactly be pleasant to many women, but song lyrics don’t turn men into rapists. Yet, ludicrously, the song has already been banned at more than 20 British universities.) Activists at Wellesley recently demanded that administrators remove a statue of a sleepwalking man: The image of a nearly naked male could “trigger” memories of sexual assault for victims.

What is the messaging here? Is this effective protest against rape-culture or an insinuation that the majority of men are incapable of differentiating between right or wrong?

Should men keep their shirts on for fear of triggering a victim's memories or emotions? Is the targeted audience really rapists or just men in general?

I'm not fully understanding the thought process behind such actions and how it's intended to reach rapists and combat rape culture.

I agree with this from RAINN and Kitchens:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

Culture influences. But, can a rapist chalk their choices up to cultural influence? No, right?

Kitchens also agrees with RAINN that a more balanced approach to education is the better approach:

RAINN urges the White House to “remain focused on the true cause of the problem” and suggests a three-pronged approach for combating rape: empowering community members through bystander intervention education, using “risk-reduction messaging” to encourage students to increase their personal safety and promoting clearer education on “where the ‘consent line’ is.” It also asserts that we should treat rape like the serious crime it is by giving power to trained law enforcement rather than internal campus judicial boards

RAINN is especially critical of the idea that we need to focus on teaching men not to rape — the hallmark of rape-culture activism. Since rape exists because our culture condones and normalizes it, activists say, we can end the epidemic of sexual violence only by teaching boys not to rape.

Does Kitchens not understand anti-rape culture activists and their proposed educational efforts? Is she misrepresenting their intentions?

How do we all respond to sexual violence? Statistics suggest that the majority of us object to sexual violence.

Victim shaming is not just and likely contributes partly to the fact that (per RAINN), 54% of victims to not report their rape. Maxwell, again, provides excellent examples that society at large, would benefit to mull over or remind themselves of.

She also says this:

I had stumbled upon rape culture: a culture in which sexual violence is the norm and victims are blamed for their own assaults.

Rape culture is a real and serious, and we need to talk about it. Simply put, feminists want equality for everyone and that begins with physical safety.

I agree that insensitivity towards a victim serves as an example of the rape culture mindset. But does insensitivity always translate to victim blaming, insincerity and/or opposition to a victim's right to safety?

The "Were you drinking?" question did result in my choice to mull over this thread for a couple of days before responding. I know people who do drink themselves into oblivion, both male and female and do really stupid and dangerous stuff while drinking. Sense of personal safety and reason is abandoned while they are intoxicated.

Sometimes, I feel like certain pockets within feminism excuses women, in particular, from any type of self-inspect and that to suggest that a woman should inspect her own actions for personal benefit would be, without dispute, a form of victim blaming or shaming.

At the end of the day, we cannot control the choices that others make. We can only control our own. Sometimes after tragedy, there are useful life lessons to be learned that extend beyond the individual who victimized.

I am of the opinion, that if someone asks a victim a question that is deemed insensitive - it might be beneficial to question why such questions are posed. Are they genuinely reflecting rape culture? Is the question posed with the intent of being insensitive and dismissive? Is the person having trouble processing what happened to their loved one? Are they asking the question because of concerns that they've had for this person?

Regardless, victim blaming is wrong and is greatly counter productive, but, I believe it's as counter productive to project as if women should not self inspect, if such inspection would yield benefit. Even if this is not what some feminists attempt to project, this is how some of the hostility that I've seen and heard is construed.

 

[Drolefille]

The irony of the use of "hysterical feminists" in a thread that is basically about misogyny...

 

[Father Heathen]

On college campuses, obsession with eliminating “rape culture” has led to censorship and hysteria. At Boston University, student activists launched a petition demanding the cancellation of a Robin Thicke concert because the lyrics of his hit song “Blurred Lines” allegedly celebrate “systemic patriarchy and sexual oppression.” (The lyrics may not exactly be pleasant to many women, but song lyrics don’t turn men into rapists. Yet, ludicrously, the song has already been banned at more than 20 British universities.) Activists at Wellesley recently demanded that administrators remove a statue of a sleepwalking man: The image of a nearly naked male could “trigger” memories of sexual assault for victims.

Censoring music and statues doesn't prevent or solve anything, and is itself the rape of art and freedom.

 

[Sunstone]

...Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

Source.

In all fairness, one must wonder if the author of that passage has even a remedial grasp of what "culture" entails and how cultures can and do influence behaviors.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

We expect human beings to commit sexual assault under the radar, pass it off as no big deal, and protect those who are accused of rape more than those who are raped (and have successfully brought their rapists to justice). From many an archdiocese to university football programs to fraternities to entire cities (Steubenville, OH)....rape culture accepts that rape will happen, and we must expect that those closest to us will assault us at some point.

Topic for debate: do you believe rape culture exists?

Yes, in addition to the groups you pointed out earlier, the military also as a history of rape culture.

Is it as Kitchens writes a product from hysterical feminists?

Nope.

How do we all respond to sexual violence?

First and foremost, education. Predators look for the weak.

Second, report all sexual abuse immediately.

Third, don't let rapist back into society, period.

 

[Drolefille]

Source.

In all fairness, one must wonder if the author of that passage has even a remedial grasp of what "culture" entails and how cultures can and do influence behaviors.

The word at issue is "cause" however. In the aggregate we can say that the culture influences the actions of the individuals, however when 100 individuals grow up in a culture and 5 rape someone, then it is important to point out that those 5 people made specific choices to rape someone.

I can look at how poverty and crime interact, and understand why many people turn to drugs, become addicted and get stuck in a cycle of addiction, poverty, homelessness, unemployment, etc. And yet, there are still other choices that can be made.

When I worked with juv. sex offenders, the key distinction was between "Excuses" and "Explainers." The first isn't allowed, the latter helps increase understanding. Rape cannot be excused by rape culture. However we can understand and address rape better if we understand rape culture.

 

[Denny Crane!]

This topic really disturbs me as I know rape culture is real and I know there is an extreme case of overcompensation resulting in police brutality and prosecution of innocent men and abuse in judicial proceedings resulting in extreme misandry and it also does nothing to prevent the rape culture and misogyny that endures.

Real troubling.

 

[freethinker44]

This topic really disturbs me as I know rape culture is real and I know there is an extreme case of overcompensation resulting in police brutality and prosecution of innocent men and abuse in judicial proceedings resulting in extreme misandry and it also does nothing to prevent the rape culture and misogyny that endures.

Real troubling.

It may not be doing anything to prevent rape culture and misogyny, but it causes men pain, so it's a start.

 

[LuisDantas]

Third, don't let rapist back into society, period.

I sympathise, but how does that work? Are we talking about execution? Perpetual solitary confinment? Inducing some sort of clinical incapacitating condition?

The idea of "forever" erradicating undesirables from society is, at best, a two-edged weapon.