Rape culture

[Me Myself]

But see, this is precisely the sort of attitude that we are talking about; how someone is dressed has no bearing on the moral or legal status of rape- it does not explain it, it does not justify it, it does not mitigate it. And when enough people believe that it does, that certainly leads to an atmosphere conducive to sexual violence. We are basically apologizing for it, when it brooks no apology whatsoever.


Is that a fact? Aside from pop/folk wisdom about men and sex, I don't see why that is so.


But is there any evidence correlating this with reports of rape? This just sounds like the same rape culture narrative; we're told that this is so, but it is certainly not consistent with my experience.

I can say the same in reverse do you know for a facct this does not happen?

I have many female friends that corroborate this things in themselves and their friends in turn. If you havent seen it then you havent seen it.

Indeed, the way a woman is dressed is a terribly poor indicator as to what she wants with bob X . Already said that.I dont know why you say it again.


We both agree dress in itself does not mean a woman wants to have sex with first bob that comes about (duh)

What I said, is that there may be ques that may be misleading (you decided I was refering to clothe when I just said it was a poor way to judge of it)

Again, no one is saying unconsensual sex is desirable, but if there is consent then it is nkt rape.

So if the woman wanted to have sex, but changed her mind later... Well, its not really rape.

 

[Me Myself]

you bring up signals. You also point to the uniqueness of signals. Well, that cuts both ways. Their is also a uniqueness in reading signals. However we must have some standard that deals with both signals and the reading of those signals. We call this the reasonable person standard. Now, we have decided that a persons dress does not induce a reasonable person to believe you have consented to sex. So we can just take that right out of the equation. Next we have decided the type of neighborhood also does not effect this. So that can get out too. Yet, so many people still suggest that she was asking for it based on those alone. How and if someome said no, or other actions they took are very much considered. I do not know why you would think they were not. However, beliefs such as it's the wife's duty or that person was into me before they got drunk and passed out. The fact that we even have a date rape drug(I can't think of any murdering drugs with a pet name) shows there is a problem.

I think yu are confused.

If I go to a stranger and give him the keys to my car and ask him to please watch it and let it be there when I come back. I did not ask someone to steal my cr, and the robber is still an #%^*le, but i am also a complete idiot.

Now, that is the formal (and real) posture, but just as when one says "I ve done this a million times" and doesnt actually mean a million, if I tell you "Giving your car keys to a stranger in a bad neighborhood is practically asking him to please never return our car" well, I would be doing the same,

Sure, I have every right to lend my car keys to whoever I want and the stranger does nt have the right to robb me, but I still was very naive and irresponsible to do what I did and it makes perfect sense to call me a morron for it and tell me "its my fault" (and This does not in any way excuse the criminal)

 

[Curious George]

I think yu are confused.

If I go to a stranger and give him the keys to my car and ask him to please watch it and let it be there when I come back. I did not ask someone to steal my cr, and the robber is still an #%^*le, but i am also a complete idiot.

Now, that is the formal (and real) posture, but just as when one says "I ve done this a million times" and doesnt actually mean a million, if I tell you "Giving your car keys to a stranger in a bad neighborhood is practically asking him to please never return our car" well, I would be doing the same,

Sure, I have every right to lend my car keys to whoever I want and the stranger does nt have the right to robb me, but I still was very naive and irresponsible to do what I did and it makes perfect sense to call me a morron for it and tell me "its my fault" (and This does not in any way excuse the criminal)

Well giving a stranger keys to your car is definitely an act. It has nothing to do with how you are dressed or in what neighborhood you were. If a woman laid down in front of you and spread her legs and pulled you on to her, a reasonable person would agree this is a signal to continue. I am failing to see what the problem is. Some acts do make a difference others do not. the ones that do not, a reasonable person would not take as the consenting signal for sexual interaction. It's pretty simple. If you tossed me your keys a reasonable person might think that is important to determine whether I thought I had your permission to take your car, however whether you were wearing a tie or a tiara matters not. We are talking relevance here. What a person was wearing is not relevant, the neighborhood they was in is not relevant.

 

[Me Myself]

Well giving a stranger keys to your car is definitely an act. It has nothing to do with how you are dressed or in what neighborhood you were. If a woman laid down in front of you and spread her legs and pulled you on to her, a reasonable person would agree this is a signal to continue. I am failing to see what the problem is. Some acts do make a difference others do not. the ones that do not, a reasonable person would not take as the consenting signal for sexual interaction. It's pretty simple. If you tossed me your keys a reasonable person might think that is important to determine whether I thought I had your permission to take your car, however whether you were wearing a tie or a tiara matters not. We are talking relevance here. What a person was wearing is not relevant, the neighborhood they was in is not relevant.

Again you seem confused. I dont care what is reasonable for the thief or the rapist to do. If I hand you the keys and you do understand that I wanted you to park my car (but you are still a complete stranger and I left you unsupervised) in a bad neighborhood, I am a complete idiot whether I was perfectly clear about what I wanted you to do wi my keys or not.

I know if I gO to certain hoods (most unfortunately) here in guayaquil walking at night alone when I can avoid it, I am a complete idiot.

The robbers would still be robbers, but everyonoe telling me I am a complete idiot would still be right. Much more so if .i was wearing Visible gold or talking by my iphone 5

I know of people who have been robbed in the same street of ther home because they took out a wrong item. They felt safe... Foul on them, its a nasty world. Lost their stuff.

What can I do? I have two choices:

1- Become Batman! The terror of the night, for ever thiirsty un my quest to punish evil until I find the evil doer that dared to robb my friend! (and I love Batman! )

2- slap my friend in the back of his head and tell him he is an idiot he knows he cant do that on at neighborhood. Then we both curse the robber in unison.

Now, if you are Batman... Well dont say it here, people could trace your IP and discover you! then again, you would know that already! Sorry batman :sorry1:

 

[nilsz]

In reply to the OP:

Does it truly surprise you when fellow atheists put much greater emphasis on human dignity than they do on the non-existence of God?

Atheism does not dictate any other position than the non-existence of God, so atheists are free to hold the views that you dismiss as "dogmatic agenda." An explanation for why you are finding atheists with such divergent opinions, is perhaps because not every atheist is a single white male basement dweller like those you rather commonly find on the Internet.

The thing when you have an echo chamber of single white male basement dwellers, is that they start to incessantly posit that the wet dreams of their demographic should be true - in which they are not quite as accountable for their actions.

"Hey hey! Maybe it isn't so bad to download music without compensating the artist?"

"Hey hey! Maybe it isn't so bad to be a racist asshole?"

"Hey hey! Maybe it isn't so bad to salivate to underage girls?"

"Hey hey! Maybe it isn't so bad to rape somebody?"

Personally I have never seen Dexter. From what I have heard about it, I gather that the protagonist targets judicially unpunished offenders instead of innocents, and as such could be seen as a vigilante. I have seen a point made about how the show could never have been as well-received in the USA if the protagonist was anything but a white male.

From a consequentialist ethical view point, execution is at least in some exceptional circumstances an appropriate punishment - such as in an armed conflict where the offender is a very real threat if kept alive. I would never argue the same for rape, because of its sadistic and cruel nature, and I would rather not see anyone try.

 

[freethinker44]

Seriously? Some bovine moron thinks that is a logical argument against the notion we live in a rape culture and everyone is actually debating it as if it isn't pure illogical pig sweat? Really?

So you have no contribution to the discussion then? Just some insulting rhetoric? If you don't like, produce an argument. Otherwise I just assume there isn't an argument against it. Maybe that's it though, maybe you don't have a logical argument to support the existence of a rape culture, and that's why you are so upset.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Looks like a valid, eminently pertinent question to me.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I can say the same in reverse do you know for a facct this does not happen?

I'm not sure what you're talking about now.

I have many female friends that corroborate this things in themselves and their friends in turn. If you havent seen it then you havent seen it.

Right, meaning the only evidence I'm aware of for it is 2nd or 3rd hand anecdotes. Not very credible either way.

Indeed, the way a woman is dressed is a terribly poor indicator as to what she wants with bob X .


We both agree dress in itself does not mean a woman wants to have sex with first bob that comes about (duh)

Right, the question is whether we have societal views and attitudes towards women such that we equate how they dress with promiscuity, and either of these with rape- in other words, we have sometimes had a societal tendency to rationalize rape by focusing on causal factors on the victims part, rather than the perpetrators part.

So if the woman wanted to have sex, but changed her mind later... Well, its not really rape.

Sure. But as I said, I have no reason to think this makes up any significant number of reported rapes; I suspect that the conventional wisdom that it does is just the sort of artificial cultural narrative that the phrase "rape culture" refers to.

 

[freethinker44]

Right, the question is whether we have societal views and attitudes towards women such that we equate how they dress with promiscuity, and either of these with rape- in other words, we have sometimes had a societal tendency to rationalize rape by focusing on causal factors on the victims part, rather than the perpetrators part.

Which is true for any crime. So we don't have a rape problem, we have a criminal justice problem.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

That may well be true as well; but once again, that doesn't mean "we don't have a rape problem". Especially since the factors that apparently influence rape culture are distinct from those that contribute towards our crime/violence problem generally- attitudes and double standards regarding women and sex in particular (which seem entirely unrelated to our glorification of violence, criminality, etc.).

And as I've remarked several times now, I'd imagine that as attitudes towards women and sex have become more progressive over the last generation or two, rape culture has diminished somewhat, although it seems overly optimistic (if not outright delusional) to think it has disappeared entirely, or diminished to point of being negligible. I think its still a real problem, and one that marginalizing or denying only exacerbates.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I stopped the video when he implied a man jumping out of the bushes and raping a woman is worse than a teenage girl being raped by her boyfriend because she made out with him.

 

[Sunstone]

So you have no contribution to the discussion then? Just some insulting rhetoric? If you don't like, produce an argument. Otherwise I just assume there isn't an argument against it. Maybe that's it though, maybe you don't have a logical argument to support the existence of a rape culture, and that's why you are so upset.

No, I just figure that, if someone doesn't see what's blatantly stupid about the position of the guy in the video, then nothing I say will have the power to cause them to recognize that stupidity -- so I'm not going to waste anymore pixels on what should be too stupid for anyone to debate.

 

[freethinker44]

No, I just figure that, if someone doesn't see what's blatantly stupid about the position of the guy in the video, then nothing I say will have the power to cause them to recognize that stupidity --

That's cool because I'm not even trying to discuss the contents of the video, as I said in the OP.

so I'm not going to waste anymore pixels on what should be too stupid for anyone to debate.

And yet here you are.

 

[freethinker44]

That may well be true as well; but once again, that doesn't mean "we don't have a rape problem". Especially since the factors that apparently influence rape culture are distinct from those that contribute towards our crime/violence problem generally- attitudes and double standards regarding women and sex in particular (which seem entirely unrelated to our glorification of violence, criminality, etc.).

And as I've remarked several times now, I'd imagine that as attitudes towards women and sex have become more progressive over the last generation or two, rape culture has diminished somewhat, although it seems overly optimistic (if not outright delusional) to think it has disappeared entirely, or diminished to point of being negligible. I think its still a real problem, and one that marginalizing or denying only exacerbates.

See, now you can almost swap out the term "women and sex" with "race and poverty" and the word "rape" with "theft and violence" and your statement could be reused almost word for word. Like this:

That may well be true as well; but once again, that doesn't mean "we don't have a theft and violence problem". Especially since the factors that apparently influence theft and violence culture are distinct from those that contribute towards our rape problem generally- attitudes and double standards regarding race and poverty in particular (which seem entirely unrelated to our glorification of rape etc.).

And as I've remarked several times now, I'd imagine that as attitudes towards race and poverty have become more progressive over the last generation or two, theft and violence culture has diminished somewhat, although it seems overly optimistic (if not outright delusional) to think it has disappeared entirely, or diminished to point of being negligible. I think its still a real problem, and one that marginalizing or denying only exacerbates.

It appears we have a problem, not with rape in particular, but with crime in general, more specifically the way our society deals with crime.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

See, now you can almost swap out the term "women and sex" with "race and poverty" and the word "rape" with "theft and violence" and your statement could be reused almost word for word.

Ok, and?

It appears we have a problem, not with rape in particular, but with crime in general, more specifically the way our society deals with crime.

Do we have a larger problem with rape, and societal attitudes/behaviors which tend to promote or facilitate it, than with other crimes? I don't think so; but our problem with rape, while arguably a subset of a larger problem, is distinct, and has distinct contributing factors; sexism and attitudes towards women are probably not especially operative in, say, the glorification of violence in popular media. Not sure what the motivation to try to minimize or marginalize the problem with rape in particular is here.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

There is indeed rape in nature.

Even cases of chimpanzees raping human females.

and what does it matter that there is rape amongst other species? I fail to see how that means culture doesn't influence rape. Chimpanzees are patriarchal, they are highly aggressive and dominate the females by slapping them around the head too.

 

[MoonWater]

See, now you can almost swap out the term "women and sex" with "race and poverty" and the word "rape" with "theft and violence" and your statement could be reused almost word for word. Like this:


It appears we have a problem, not with rape in particular, but with crime in general, more specifically the way our society deals with crime.

Just because the terms can be swapped out doesn't mean we don't have a rape problem.

Just because we have a problem with how our society deals with crime doesn't mean we don't have a rape problem.

I'm with enaidealukal on this, you have been way off base trying to claim that these things are mutually exclusive when they are not, not by a long shot. Rape is a crime, and there IS a rape problem in our society, trying to deny that is being blind at best and outright contributing to the problem at worst.

The simple fact that I have been born female makes it far more likely that I will be sexually assaulted/raped in my lifetime regardless of any other factors.
Now yes the same can be said of black men and murder but while this is just as deplorable and needs to be addressed just as badly, it by no means negates the fact that the other problem still exists and I fail to see how you can argue that it does with a straight face.

 

[Me Myself]

That may well be true as well; but once again, that doesn't mean "we don't have a rape problem". Especially since the factors that apparently influence rape culture are distinct from those that contribute towards our crime/violence problem generally- attitudes and double standards regarding women and sex in particular (which seem entirely unrelated to our glorification of violence, criminality, etc.).

And as I've remarked several times now, I'd imagine that as attitudes towards women and sex have become more progressive over the last generation or two, rape culture has diminished somewhat, although it seems overly optimistic (if not outright delusional) to think it has disappeared entirely, or diminished to point of being negligible. I think its still a real problem, and one that marginalizing or denying only exacerbates.

Semantics again?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I've gathered that crying "semantics" is a useful ploy to avoid addressing conflicting arguments or evidence. Either that or several posters here have absolutely no clue what "semantics" means.

If you can't think of a response to the post or point at issue, you're under no obligation to post something, just for the sake of posting (i.e. mistakenly crying "semantics").

 

[Me Myself]

I've gathered that crying "semantics" is a useful ploy to avoid addressing conflicting arguments or evidence. Either that or several posters here have absolutely no clue what "semantics" means.

If you can't think of a response to the post or point at issue, you're under no obligation to post something, just for the sake of posting (i.e. mistakenly crying "semantics").

I have already replied to it.

You are again arguing whether ere is some rape culture at all, I ve already said yes and thinker has done so too.

We are actually talking about whether it is big enough to warrant an alarmist label, or if any, from where does it come from.