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Rapture and Transformation

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Read the life of Cyrus Scofield and his relationship with Samuel Untermyer.. Then read about Samuel Untermyer's fundraising efforts and his declaration of war against all things German in 1933 from the safety of Madison Square Garden.

I will. But you're the one making the allegation. Remember? So, show me that the motive of Darby and Scofield to create and promote dispensationalism and pre-millennium rapture was nothing but political and for furthering Christian Zionism.



Good-Ole-Rebel
 

sooda

Veteran Member
What is your support for this allegation?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Samuel Untermyer raised money in the US for years to feed the six million starving Jews of Europe. He was an avid Zionist and sought to influence US and European leaders to support it as well. He hired Scofield who was an ex felon to write his Bible and he paid to found and develop Dallas Theological Seminary. They turned out fundamentalist, evangelical preachers who taught Dispensationalism and the Rapture. The claim being that when all Jews returned to the Holy Lands and rebuilt the Temple Jesus would return. 1/3 of Jews would convert and the rest would die.

He was successful in his efforts. Lord Balfour was a Christian Zionist.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Samuel Untermyer raised money in the US for years to feed the six million starving Jews of Europe. He was an avid Zionist and sought to influence US and European leaders to support it as well. He hired Scofield who was an ex felon to write his Bible and he paid to found and develop Dallas Theological Seminary. They turned out fundamentalist, evangelical preachers who taught Dispensationalism and the Rapture. The claim being that when all Jews returned to the Holy Lands and rebuilt the Temple Jesus would return. 1/3 of Jews would convert and the rest would die.

He was successful in his efforts. Lord Balfour was a Christian Zionist.

You keep giving excerpts with no source credit. And, you haven't touched on the motive. As I asked, show me that the motive of Darby and Scofield was nothing but political and for the furtherance of Zionism.

What is your source?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Samuel Untermyer raised money in the US for years to feed the six million starving Jews of Europe. He was an avid Zionist and sought to influence US and European leaders to support it as well. He hired Scofield who was an ex felon to write his Bible and he paid to found and develop Dallas Theological Seminary. They turned out fundamentalist, evangelical preachers who taught Dispensationalism and the Rapture. The claim being that when all Jews returned to the Holy Lands and rebuilt the Temple Jesus would return. 1/3 of Jews would convert and the rest would die.

He was successful in his efforts. Lord Balfour was a Christian Zionist.
So Samuel Untermyer raised money to feed starving Jews and was a Zionist who wanted to use his influence or Darby, Scofield, and the Dallas Theological Seminary expressed Dispensational views, what you are proposing occurred was a grand conspiracy event complete with personal attacks thrown in concerning Scofield’ s background as a felon. True, he was an ex felon... before he repented and gave his life to Christ.

I believe it is God who orchestrates events throughout history to accomplish His purposes and fulfill His prophetic word. The bottom line, from my perspective, is whether or not the teachings of any human concerning Israel, the rapture, the church, the tribulation, dispensations, or anything else line up with the scriptures.


Does the fact that dispensational theology is a recent development argue against its legitimacy? | GotQuestions.org
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You keep giving excerpts with no source credit. And, you haven't touched on the motive. As I asked, show me that the motive of Darby and Scofield was nothing but political and for the furtherance of Zionism.

What is your source?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Source? I have known the facts for over 50 years.

Refuting the Scofield Bible - True Sons of Abraham
truesonsofabraham.com/refuting-scofield-bible.htm
T he Scofield Bible is undoubtedly the most poisonous and influential piece of "Christian" Zionist propaganda ever published. I have long wanted to present a refutation of Scofield's teachings, and was therefore glad to come across a lecture by Albertus Pieters called A Candid Examination of the Scofield Bible , which ably exposes the deception and lies employed by Scofield.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
if this rapture thing happens ,but only takes 100 or maybe 1000 . will you feel shorted . scripture shows there is going to be a resurrection of the dead so many that it will be hard to count them all . all living here on earth
 

sooda

Veteran Member
if this rapture thing happens ,but only takes 100 or maybe 1000 . will you feel shorted . scripture shows there is going to be a resurrection of the dead so many that it will be hard to count them all . all living here on earth

The Terrible Error of the Scofield Bible | The Fellowship ...
fgcp.org/content/terrible-error-scofield-bible
The selection of Scofield for admission to the Lotos Club strengthens the suspicion that someone was directing his career by concerns remote from fidelity to the truth of Jesus Christ…. Mr. Scott, the Morgan and Scott publisher who first met Scofield at Northfield, took the Scofields to his home near Dorking.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So Samuel Untermyer raised money to feed starving Jews and was a Zionist who wanted to use his influence or Darby, Scofield, and the Dallas Theological Seminary expressed Dispensational views, what you are proposing occurred was a grand conspiracy event complete with personal attacks thrown in concerning Scofield’ s background as a felon. True, he was an ex felon... before he repented and gave his life to Christ.

I believe it is God who orchestrates events throughout history to accomplish His purposes and fulfill His prophetic word. The bottom line, from my perspective, is whether or not the teachings of any human concerning Israel, the rapture, the church, the tribulation, dispensations, or anything else line up with the scriptures.


Does the fact that dispensational theology is a recent development argue against its legitimacy? | GotQuestions.org

Got questions publishers are Scofield believers.

ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching
The GOSPEL TRUTH of God's Character, Law, Government and Gospelscofield.htm
Scofield was taken in by an immense deception that he unwittingly believed and included in his Bible notes to the detriment of all who believe in them. If the Church is to be built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ the Chief Cornerstone, then the presumptions and errors of the Scofield Reference Bible must be exposed.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Source? I have known the facts for over 50 years.

Refuting the Scofield Bible - True Sons of Abraham
truesonsofabraham.com/refuting-scofield-bible.htm
T he Scofield Bible is undoubtedly the most poisonous and influential piece of "Christian" Zionist propaganda ever published. I have long wanted to present a refutation of Scofield's teachings, and was therefore glad to come across a lecture by Albertus Pieters called A Candid Examination of the Scofield Bible , which ably exposes the deception and lies employed by Scofield.

Well, if that is your source you are terribly gullible. I read it. The author just disagrees with the doctrines of dispensationalism. Big deal.

I asked you what is your source to prove Darby and Scofield created dispensationalism for political motives and furthering Zionism?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Well, if that is your source you are terribly gullible. I read it. The author just disagrees with the doctrines of dispensationalism. Big deal.

I asked you what is your source to prove Darby and Scofield created dispensationalism for political motives and furthering Zionism?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Not Darby.. Scofield and Samuel Untermyer.. Untermyer was the leading Zionist in the US.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Got questions publishers are Scofield believers.

ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching
The GOSPEL TRUTH of God's Character, Law, Government and Gospelscofield.htm
Scofield was taken in by an immense deception that he unwittingly believed and included in his Bible notes to the detriment of all who believe in them. If the Church is to be built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ the Chief Cornerstone, then the presumptions and errors of the Scofield Reference Bible must be exposed.
I highly doubt the Got Questions ministry is made up of “Scofield believers”, but I will research further who is involved and their views.

On the other hand, what makes the link you provided to the Gospel Truth website anymore authoritative? It is clearly committed to following and elevating Charles Fiinney. I have nothing against Finley, but the website is unbalanced.

The other website “ True Sons of Abraham “ you linked to in a response to Good-Ole-Rebel is definitely a white supremacy, Christian identity, Israel replacement site. I would not consider their views valid at all.

As I have said elsewhere, it is not the teaching(s) of any person or group which is necessarily truth, but whether those teachings line up with the scriptures.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Not Darby.. Scofield and Samuel Untermyer.. Untermyer was the leading Zionist in the US.

OK. Scofield. Question remains.

As I said, I read the article. All it is, is someone who disagrees adamantly with dispensationalism. Yes, Untermeyer was a Zionist. So?

I am asking for you to prove that Scofield's motive in his belief of dispensationalism and the creation of the Bible that bears his name was for political purposes and to further Zionism?

You constantly make this claim. And, what was Darby's motive seeing how you view him as such an evil person?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I highly doubt the Got Questions ministry is made up of “Scofield believers”, but I will research further who is involved and their views.

On the other hand, what makes the link you provided to the Gospel Truth website anymore authoritative? It is clearly committed to following and elevating Charles Fiinney. I have nothing against Finley, but the website is unbalanced.

The other website “ True Sons of Abraham “ you linked to in a response to Good-Ole-Rebel is definitely a white supremacy, Christian identity, Israel replacement site. I would not consider their views valid at all.

As I have said elsewhere, it is not the teaching(s) of any person or group which is necessarily truth, but whether those teachings line up with the scriptures.

Dallas Theological Seminary still teaches the Scofield Bible as do many of the low prestige Bible Colleges for pentecostals, evangelicals and fundamentalists. Most play it down or never bring up Scofield who was a very shady person of poor character .. Samuel Untermyer hired him and then paid to publish the book.

It grew in popularity during the Dust Bowl and Depression with preachers like Billy Sunday and Amy Semple McPherson.. and yes, it was a "white Christian" thing.

  1. A look at Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/index.htm
    The Man Behind Scofield A look at Samuel Untermeyer I. Blackmailing President Woodrow Wilson II. Creating the State of Palestine III. Declaring War on Germany – 1933 IV. Silencing Henry Ford V. Recruiting law partner Louis Marshall VI. Building the Jewish Theological Seminary VII. Putting on Sheep’s Clothing The Satanic Influence on the ...

  2. Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The Protestant ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/sheep.htm
    In 1901, through Untermeyer's influence, Scofield was admitted into a sophisticated men's club in New York. The Lotus Club promoted social intercourse among friends of literature and fine arts. Joseph Canfield believes that the selection of Scofield for membership “strengthens the suspicion that someone was directing his career at this time.” 1
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Dallas Theological Seminary still teaches the Scofield Bible as do many of the low prestige Bible Colleges for pentecostals, evangelicals and fundamentalists. Most play it down or never bring up Scofield who was a very shady person of poor character .. Samuel Untermyer hired him and then paid to publish the book.

It grew in popularity during the Dust Bowl and Depression with preachers like Billy Sunday and Amy Semple McPherson.. and yes, it was a "white Christian" thing.

  1. A look at Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/index.htm
    The Man Behind Scofield A look at Samuel Untermeyer I. Blackmailing President Woodrow Wilson II. Creating the State of Palestine III. Declaring War on Germany – 1933 IV. Silencing Henry Ford V. Recruiting law partner Louis Marshall VI. Building the Jewish Theological Seminary VII. Putting on Sheep’s Clothing The Satanic Influence on the ...

  2. Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The Protestant ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/sheep.htm
    In 1901, through Untermeyer's influence, Scofield was admitted into a sophisticated men's club in New York. The Lotus Club promoted social intercourse among friends of literature and fine arts. Joseph Canfield believes that the selection of Scofield for membership “strengthens the suspicion that someone was directing his career at this time.” 1
Well, you say it was a “white thing” as if you consider that to be wrong and a negative thing. Yet a lot of the links you provide to support your views about Scofield are from anti-Semitic, white supremacy sites. Whereas, many of those Christians you seem to speak against are those who believe, though God chose Israel to reveal Himself and accomplish certain purposes through history using the nation of Israel, God loves all people of whatever race or nationality.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Well, you say it was a “white thing” as if you consider that to be wrong and a negative thing. Yet a lot of the links you provide to support your views about Scofield are from anti-Semitic, white supremacy sites. Whereas, many of those Christians you seem to speak against are those who believe, though God chose Israel to reveal Himself and accomplish certain purposes through history using the nation of Israel, God loves all people of whatever race or nationality.

I'm not a white nationalist or a Christian Zionist .. and I am most certainly NOT anti-Semitic... nor do I hold with the theology of the Scofield heresy.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Dallas Theological Seminary still teaches the Scofield Bible as do many of the low prestige Bible Colleges for pentecostals, evangelicals and fundamentalists. Most play it down or never bring up Scofield who was a very shady person of poor character .. Samuel Untermyer hired him and then paid to publish the book.

It grew in popularity during the Dust Bowl and Depression with preachers like Billy Sunday and Amy Semple McPherson.. and yes, it was a "white Christian" thing.

  1. A look at Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/index.htm
    The Man Behind Scofield A look at Samuel Untermeyer I. Blackmailing President Woodrow Wilson II. Creating the State of Palestine III. Declaring War on Germany – 1933 IV. Silencing Henry Ford V. Recruiting law partner Louis Marshall VI. Building the Jewish Theological Seminary VII. Putting on Sheep’s Clothing The Satanic Influence on the ...

  2. Samuel Untermeyer - Historicist.com The Protestant ...
    Historicist.infountermeyer/sheep.htm
    In 1901, through Untermeyer's influence, Scofield was admitted into a sophisticated men's club in New York. The Lotus Club promoted social intercourse among friends of literature and fine arts. Joseph Canfield believes that the selection of Scofield for membership “strengthens the suspicion that someone was directing his career at this time.” 1

Your source gets it's material from the book "The Incredible Scofield And His Book" by Joseph M. Canfield. Canfield was a bitter man against dispensational theology and sought to destroy it by attacking Scofield. His work is so full of errors and baseless charges that no one takes it serious except those who hate dispensationalism.

Read the response: "The Incredible Canfield And His Scofield Hatchet Job!" by Robert L. Sumner.

Canfield's work proves nothing. So you need to prove that Scofields motive for dispensational theology and the Bible that bears his name was political and for furthering Zionism.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I'm not a white nationalist or a Christian Zionist .. and I am most certainly NOT anti-Semitic... nor do I hold with the theology of the Scofield heresy.
Glad to hear you are not a white nationalist or anti- Semitic. We have that in common then. Neither do consider myself a Christian Zionist or hold to Scofield theology, except wherein it lines up with the scriptures.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I certainly don’t think one should be so fixated on the rapture and leaving the earth that they miss all the beauty and blessings God gives each day. This is especially true for American Christians. Yet, there are people in this world and Christians in situations or other countries who are truly suffering. In such a situation the knowledge of Jesus coming at any moment to deliver them into eternity may be the only hope that sustains them.
I'm not one to buy into this notion that people who suffer in this life while living in 1st world, industrialized nations, really don't have anything to complain about because they aren't living in some flea-infested village where war and violence ravage their world.

Suffering is suffering. It doesn't matter if someone has a billion dollars, they could very well be living inside hell in their lives (chance are actually higher they do). The pain and suffering of a middle-age, middle-income white woman living in a crime free neighborhood, with reasonable comforts, who looks at the misery of her life full of unfulfilled hopes and dreams, rejections and losses, and decides to commit suicide, is somehow suffering less that others living without any money. It does not work that way. It naive to assume it should.

But you raise a good point, which actually supports what I am trying to say. You say, unless you live in a good part of the world, the only hope you have is life after death. In essence that death is better than life. And that should be the Christian message. "Death is better than life". Or put another way, "Don't hope for Peace and Joy in this life. You have the promise you will get that after you die. So be of good cheer."

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. No matter what your circumstances in life, you can have that Peace of heaven, fully, without measure, in your life, here, and now. To have a faith that only just keeps you going through the misery in the hope it'll be good for you on the "other side", is not a functional faith. That's saying there is no hope in this world. There is no hope for Joy in this life. And that is utterly untrue, from a Christian perspective.

Besides, though there is much to be grateful for and appreciate on this earth, it is still a fallen world where life and creation is marred by sin. So I consider the promise of Christ to return to take believers to be with Him forever a blessed hope.
Are you saying, that to see God's glory in this world, that to you, that glory is marred by sin? Your participation in that glory, is diminished because of sin? If you experience the Presence of God in yourself and in the world, that is marred by sin to you? I contend it is not possible. No sin exists in God. To experience God is to be free from all sin, and the marring of it.

Therefore, no matter who you are, what your circumstances are, to experience God in this life, is to be Free of anything less than that. It's not about changing your circumstances, which includes dying, in order to experience freedom from suffering, or sin, or diminishment of any kind. Rather than telling people they've be promised an end to suffering after they die, why not teach them how to find Peace in their situations as they are?

Is God's love conditional? Then why claim it's situational to those seeking it? To say they can't experience it because their lives suck, makes it conditional. To say it comes after you die, is also situational, or conditional. To say it's yours no matter what, or when, meaning "in this life as in heaven", makes it unconditional. Which it is.

Your previous experience with church when you were younger does sound very bizarre. Where was that in Montana, if you don’t mind sharing?
In Havre.

I came to know Jesus Christ as my Savior while living in Montana years ago. It wasn’t in a church though. I know there are some extremely weird churches, but I’ve not been involved with any that sound like the ones you have.
To be fair, not every individual in the church would have gone as far as that guy did in how he understood the rapture. But that was my first exposure to it. However, by and large, the things they were saying as a whole were not that much different than what you shared in your link. It's all that dispensationalist stuff that Darby started in the 1800s. It's that particular flavor that he introduced theologically that spun its way into most of the fundamentalist lens that read the Bible with.

Maybe the church didn’t talk about the coming of Christ and the blessed hope, but Jesus and Paul did, right?
When we read the Bible today, we are not reading it without prior conditioning as to what it means influencing how we read it. I mentioned before that little magic trick about how you tell someone what the Bible says, and then show it to them in the passage so they can read it themselves. "A miracle! It's all right there in black and white. How can others not see what is so clearly there?" The true test would be to hand it to someone who has no idea what it says, say nothing, have them read it, and then in complete isolation write down what they think it means, and see how close it matches what that other believer claims it means without ever hearing any suggestion at all. It won't match.

So that is to try to tell you that how Darby read it, is not how anyone before him did. What you believe, is patterned after his teachings. It's not that other Christians didn't see what was so apparently clearly right there on the pages. It's that they didn't read it the way Darby did. So did Paul and Jesus talk about the resurrection? Sure! Did they mean what Darby claims? I don't believe so, nor does the rest of Christianity outside this particular theology that colorizes what you read on its pages. You didn't discover all that on your own.
 
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