Rasing the minimum wage could cost jobs

[Dirty Penguin]

I think a raise on the minimun wage would be justified. Some jobs would likely be lost, but there are benefits that could rectify those losses through opportunities offered by other established businesses.

It would mean less reliance on public assistance as a higher wage would mean better retention of employees at a givin location, thereby improving overall quality of services and reducing training costs that typically results from revolving door type jobs. I think the pros would outweigh the cons in light of things at present. It's not just Democrats. There are also a number of Republicans who also endorse a higher minimun wage as well. It's high time to do so imo.

Yep....Here's a good one right here....

Public sees role for government in reducing wealth inequality - The Washington Post

 

[Alceste]

Yep....Here's a good one right here....

Public sees role for government in reducing wealth inequality - The Washington Post

Spectacular post. I can't frubal you again, but I might use your graph to back up my ideas in Sunstone's "why are there more conservatives than liberals" post, where I argue that there are plenty of liberals in the US but they're afraid to use the word.

 

[dawny0826]

Your questions? You asked your questions in response to my post, which said only this:

"The economic mobility of individuals can not be used as an argument against a systemic wealth imbalance that leaves some full time employees reliant on government benefits because an individual's choice to change jobs does not affect the number or quality of available jobs, which is dictated only by public demand for goods and services."

Granted, I said it in too many words, which may have led to ambiguity as to the specific thought I was trying to convey. For that I apologize - I was trying to be more clear, not less.

If you will address the sentence in bold in your reply, I promise I will answer all your questions.

Economic mobility and wealth imbalance are separate concerns, in my opinion.

You can obtain financial success, despite the hardships of wealth imbalance and much of this is attributable to the choices that you make as an individual.

You can push for the type of change, politically and economically that you want to see, but, at the end of the day you're still responsibile for putting food on your own table and for taking the necessary steps to meet your personal goals.

I'm sorry, but, a single woman with four children cannot support her family on a McDonald's paycheck. Does McDonald's underpay its workers when considering its profits? Sure it does. But, McDonalds hires people to prepare and serve fast food. Can this woman reasonably expect to make the $40.00+ per hour flipping burgers that she would realistically need to raise her family of four?

The answer is no, regardless as to whether or not McDonald's increases workers pay and/or the government increases mininum wage. The FACT will remain, you cannot raise a large family as a full time food preparer at McDonald's. That's not going to change, regardless as to how much adjustment you wish to propose.

Therefore, the woman in my scenario, must focus on her own economic mobility if she wishes to be independent and financially stable.

 

[Alceste]

Economic mobility and wealth imbalance are separate concerns, in my opinion.

You can obtain financial success, despite the hardships of wealth imbalance and much of this is attributable to the choices that you make as an individual.

You can push for the type of change, politically and economically that you want to see, but, at the end of the day you're still responsibile for putting food on your own table and for taking the necessary steps to meet your personal goals.

I'm sorry, but, a single woman with four children cannot support her family on a McDonald's paycheck. Does McDonald's underpay its workers when considering its profits? Sure it does. But, McDonalds hires people to prepare and serve fast food. Can this woman reasonably expect to make the $40.00+ per hour flipping burgers that she would realistically need to raise her family of four?

The answer is no, regardless as to whether or not McDonald's increases workers pay and/or the government increases mininum wage. The FACT will remain, you cannot raise a large family as a full time food preparer at McDonald's. That's not going to change, regardless as to how much adjustment you wish to propose.

Therefore, the woman in my scenario, must focus on her own economic mobility if she wishes to be independent and financially stable.

OK, I'm talking about wealth disparity. I don't feel economic mobility is the most relevant factor in a discussion of minimum wage.

For what it's worth, in addition to having a massive wealth disparity problem, the US also has unusually low economic mobility for a developed nation. I agree that they're not exactly the same problem, so let's stick to the subject minimum wage increases are meant to address, which is wealth disparity.

 

[dawny0826]

OK, I'm talking about wealth disparity. I don't feel economic mobility is the most relevant factor in a discussion of minimum wage.

For what it's worth, in addition to having a massive wealth disparity problem, the US also has unusually low economic mobility for a developed nation. I agree that they're not exactly the same problem, so let's stick to the subject minimum wage increases are meant to address, which is wealth disparity.

Do you seriously not see how its relative?

Mininum wage increases will not make the impact that you envision UNLESS people also consider their own economic mobility. You can't stay stuck in a mininum wage job and expect to make a brain surgeon's wages. Never going to happen.

The government can keep raising your wages, but, unless YOU TOO are doing your part to excel at your job, to propel yourself forward in some way...you're going to remain stuck and struggling.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Do you seriously not see how its relative?

Mininum wage increases will not make the impact that you envision UNLESS people also consider their own economic mobility. You can't stay stuck in a mininum wage job and expect to make a brain surgeon's wages. Never going to happen.

The government can keep raising your wages, but, unless YOU TOO are doing your part to excel at your job, to propel yourself forward in some way...you're going to remain stuck and struggling.

But none of this negates the fact that the minimum wage should be raised. Upward mobility isn't as black and white as many make it out to be. Many are in fact working these jobs, going to school, and in some cases going "back" to school as well as trying to raise a child/family. I work with people daily who are in this exact position. Some of them are young adults and others are older parents with higher education behind them.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-22/college-grads-jobless/54473426/1

Young adults with bachelor's degrees are increasingly scraping by in lower-wage jobs — waiter or waitress, bartender, retail clerk or receptionist, for example — and that's confounding their hopes a degree would pay off despite higher tuition and mounting student loans.

An analysis of government data conducted for the Associated Press lays bare the highly uneven prospects for holders of bachelor's degrees.
Opportunities for college graduates vary widely.


While there's strong demand in science, education and health fields, arts and humanities flounder. Median wages for those with bachelor's degrees are down from 2000, hit by technological changes that are eliminating midlevel jobs such as bank tellers. Most future job openings are projected to be in lower-skilled positions such as home health aides, who can provide personalized attention as the U.S. population ages.


Taking underemployment into consideration, the job prospects for bachelor's degree holders fell last year to the lowest level in more than a decade.

 

[dawny0826]

But none of this negates the fact that the minimum wage should be raised. Upward mobility isn't as black and white as many make it out to be. Many are in fact working these jobs, going to school, and in some cases going "back" to school as well as trying to raise a child/family. I work with people daily who are in this exact position. Some of them are young adults and others are older parents with higher education behind them.

No, it doesn't. And I have stated repeatedly now that I am not in objection to raising the minimum wage.

I understand that this isn't a black and white issue, myself.

It's the poeple unlike those in your example that trouble me. It's those who genuinely believe that they CAN make it on a mininum wage and do not intend to do anything to better their circumstances. This mindset exists as well.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Simple math will tell you minimum wage at any amount is not the solution. Having a plan to do better is the solution. If you have no education and no skills your jus spinning your wheels on a road to nowhere.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Minimum wage need to account for inflation. Here is an interesting chart.

Amount With Inflation | Raise The Minimum Wage

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No, it doesn't. And I have stated repeatedly now that I am not in objection to raising the minimum wage.

I understand that this isn't a black and white issue, myself.

It's the poeple unlike those in your example that trouble me. It's those who genuinely believe that they CAN make it on a mininum wage and do not intend to do anything to better their circumstances. This mindset exists as well.

Oh, so you're only addressing a small subset of the population....?

Yes, there will always be those who are complacent...but complacency doesn't stop at jobs where people are making minimum wage. It happens in every industry at every level. Now while I agree that upward mobility and self determination can be keys to success it helps to put things in context. My example was but one in a sea of dozens where others thought like you but entered the work force only find themselves competing with others for jobs that about a decade or so ago they wouldn't have given a second thought. And while we can look around and find many in minimum wage jobs...it helps to understand and to put their lives in context. Many of the young adults and older adults I work with don't necessarily want to stay in a minimum wage job but this is where they are until they're able to change their situation. Ask anyone if working a minimum wage job is where they want to be and the vast majority will tell you 'no'....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Simple math will tell you minimum wage at any amount is not the solution. Having a plan to do better is the solution. If you have no education and no skills your jus spinning your wheels on a road to nowhere.

I think both are important.....:sad:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Minimum wage need to account for inflation. Here is an interesting chart.

Amount With Inflation | Raise The Minimum Wage

"The minimum wage of $1.60 an hour in 1968 would be $10.56 today when adjusted for inflation"

Exactly......and what they're proposing is $10.10. Given the info you cited it would seem to blow this talking point out of the water....http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3650108-post33.html

I had some info I posted the other day which breaks it down and gives a few other scenarios...which seem to be pretty much in line with what you posted....


Benchmarking the Minimum Wage

 

[Falvlun]

You've restated to me several times that raising the mininum wage is still a good idea, when I never objected to it in the first place.

I think you are in the wrong thread, then. We are discussing raising the minimum wage, and the pros and cons thereof. If you don't want to talk about the minimum wage, and chastise us whenever we mention it in a reply back to you, then why the heck are you in this thread?

Yes, you state that you have no problem with raising the minimum wage. But you have also claimed that it wouldn't solve the problem, that basically, minimum wage people shouldn't expect to have good wages anyway (and it's their fault for being in that position), and that raising the minimum will hurt small businesses. So why, then, do you support raising the minimum wage? Can't you see how it's hard to follow you? You claim to support the minimum wage, but also seem to accept all the arguments people use to oppose raising the minimum wage.

 

[Falvlun]

Fair enough and I apologize. I intended to reference small businesses but did not.

I posted this:

I was inferring small business here, but, I didn't elaborate as I thought I had.

Per above, I have not used blanket label terminology. I can't accept that all business will benefit in the same way from an increase in mininum wage and utilized my own experience as an example.

I worked for a small, appraising firm and there were less than 10 employees with the company. When business was tight, as was usual during certain seasons, I was fortunate to keep a job and was fortunate to make above mininum wage to begin with.

If the government demanded that hourly employees be paid more, they would not be able to do so without cutting one of the office jobs or cutting back hours, to compensate. Contarary to what you suggested in your last post, this was a profitable business, but a very small business, unable to extend too far outside their scope of operation if they wanted to maintain their employees and maintain profitability.



Sometimes, the decisions that our government makes does translate to kicking the smaller business in the balls and this does have a direct impact on people like you and I.

I didn't freaking say that! You present this back to me in a different vein.

I never said that the small business was a target. I'm acknowledging the fact that smaller business can be impacted DIFFERENTLY. Not all businesses are going to be impacted in the same way.

How does this translate to "small business are the primary target impacted by a raise in minimum wage"?

In my personal experience, I was paid about the same. I had less job stability when working for a smaller business, but this was attributable to the nature of that specific business.

A family member of mine works at WalMart and is actually pleased with his wages, considering the work that he does. He's treated well and has a comparable benefit package to mine.

Not every personal experience matches the next.

Where did I imply that a company should pay us less BECAUSE they are struggling?

What I was trying to get at is that the company that's struggling will likely struggle moreso if required to increase its employee wages, which may have an adverse impact on its employees.

Your commentary was that such a business is probably not the best suited anyway since it's struggling and perhaps its competitors can do the job better.

Well, maybe so. But, it doesn't change the negate impact that such experiences have on people who lose their job. And I'm not saying that this negates any positives that an increase in mininum wage could have, but, I won't pretend that these sorts of scenarios won't happen either.


where I was trying to get at with my example was that the Mom and Pop establishment wouldn't be able to keep up with higher wages and maintain profitability. It won't be competing. It's going to close.

I get your argument that raising the minimum wage will adversely effect small businesses, particularly of the struggling kind.

Yes, I have no doubt that raising the minimum wage will likely adversely affect some businesses- large or small- maybe even putting some out of business.

My point is that on the whole, raising the minimum wage will ultimately benefit the majority of businesses, for the reasons I've already mentioned. Struggling, small businesses are likely to go out of business for a myriad of reasons, and I don't think that we should with-hold raising the minimum wage out of fear of culling a few more.

I also think that by singling out struggling small businesses you are missing the forest for the trees.

For one, minimum wage workers account for only 4.7% of hourly paid workers. For two, this will have a far greater effect upon big corporations, like Walmart, fast food places, and retail stores (like Sears), which don't fit the struggling, small business picture you are painting.

At the end of the day, the vast majority of minimum wage employers can afford to raise the minimum wage.

Mythos my managerial ***.

You seriously think that we live in a meritocracy? It's a sweet, tempting delusion, to be sure. But the U.S. doesn't work that way anymore, if it ever did. If you were born into money, you are far better equipped to make more money. If you were born into poverty, you are likely to stay there. We have some the worst upward mobility stats among the first world countries.

And yes, income and wealth disparity is a big, big reason for this.

 

[dawny0826]

I think you are in the wrong thread, then.

No more out of place here, than you, my dear.

The OP raises the question as to whether or not raising the mininum wage could hurt jobs. I have questioned this, have I not?

We are discussing raising the minimum wage, and the pros and cons thereof. If you don't want to talk about the minimum wage, and chastise us whenever we mention it in a reply back to you, then why the heck are you in this thread?

Your own choice of words suggested to me, that you weren't acknowledging that I DID not have a problem with a raise in the mininum wage but was questioning it and its impacts (which is afterall, the purpose of this thread, is it not?)

My concerns have consistently been as follows:

a) that the impacts that such raise may have on the economy will not be immediate
b) such a raise could have an adverse impact on smaller businesses
c) regardless as to strides to close the wage gap and/or raise the mininum wage, Americans who rely on minimum wage jobs for financial sustainment will still continue to struggle unless steps are taken personally to improve indiviudal economic mobility

IYes, you state that you have no problem with raising the minimum wage. But you have also claimed that it wouldn't solve the problem, that basically, minimum wage people shouldn't expect to have good wages anyway (and it's their fault for being in that position), and that raising the minimum will hurt small businesses. So why, then, do you support raising the minimum wage? Can't you see how it's hard to follow you? You claim to support the minimum wage, but also seem to accept all the arguments people use to oppose raising the minimum wage.

Our current mininum wage is ridiculous considering inflation. I agree.

What I don't understand is why I can't be okay with such a raise and still question adverse impacts that such a raise may have on some American businesses and employees.

You've said...oh...more money...more economical stimulation. Okay. I suppose this offset will help some businesses. Forgive me for giving a damn about those who may take a blow. These are Americans too.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding that I can be okay with an idea but still be cautious of its impacts on certain people? Why is so hard to follow that I also care to contemplate other possible solutions?

I find it horribly unrealistic that anyone can expect to make a comfortable living off of $10.74 per hour when it takes double or triple this amount to cover the costs of living in my city.

Though you find my contributions to be out of place and irrelevant in this thread, I do feel that it's important whenever we discuss the mininum wage to question why certain Americans are satisifed relying on mininum wage jobs, when such an income isn't feasible for sustainment - never has been and never will be.

 

[metis]

If your well being is dependant on the minimum wage rate, your in for a painful life. Who on earth believes the middle class is going to include a minimum wage worker?

What is going to happen is young folks will be shut out of a first time job while the current employees will have a reduced work force or less hours.

Bottom line, they will have to work harder for more money or they will take home the same check and work less.

Where is the additional wage money going to come from? It does not exist. Anyone who has run a business understands that there is only so much money in the payroll account and you have to maintain a certain wage cost percentage to keep the doors open.

But the above is based on an assumption that employers hire extra people just to hire extra people. Sorry, but generally speaking, employers only tend to hire as many as they believe they need to get the job done with some cushion allowed for absenteeism and vacations.

Yes, in some marginal cases it's possible that there could be some reduction in the number of employees, but that may be made up because these employees that now are making more will also be spending more, thus raising all ships, including where they work. Remember the history of Ford significantly raising wages so as his employees could buy more Fords.

And the proof is in the pudding in that studies have confirmed that, on the average, raising minimum wage does not increase unemployment overall.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And yes, income and wealth disparity is a big, big reason for this.

Yep....I see that change happening in the early 80's. The wealthy/rich along with the middle class were on par with wages and productivity. Reagan and Republican policies along with Democrats supporting them affected the trajectory. Income among the wealthy/rich under these policies began to skyrocket. Middle class productivity began to increase but their wages overall remained flat. Throughout Reagan's presidency, GW Sr., Clinton, and GW Jr. these policies remained somewhat in the wealthy/rich's favour. Even back in 2001 when they lost a lot of their wealth they began to recover in just a few short years while the wages of the middle class and working poor remained about the same.....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3652422-post98.html

 

[Falvlun]

No more out of place here, than you, my dear.

The OP raises the question as to whether or not raising the mininum wage could hurt jobs. I have questioned this, have I not?



Your own choice of words suggested to me, that you weren't acknowledging that I DID not have a problem with a raise in the mininum wage but was questioning it and its impacts (which is afterall, the purpose of this thread, is it not?)

My concerns have consistently been as follows:

a) that the impacts that such raise may have on the economy will not be immediate
b) such a raise could have an adverse impact on smaller businesses
c) regardless as to strides to close the wage gap and/or raise the mininum wage, Americans who rely on minimum wage jobs for financial sustainment will still continue to struggle unless steps are taken personally to improve indiviudal economic mobility



Our current mininum wage is ridiculous considering inflation. I agree.

What I don't understand is why I can't be okay with such a raise and still question adverse impacts that such a raise may have on some American businesses and employees.

You've said...oh...more money...more economical stimulation. Okay. I suppose this offset will help some businesses. Forgive me for giving a damn about those who may take a blow. These are Americans too.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding that I can be okay with an idea but still be cautious of its impacts on certain people? Why is so hard to follow that I also care to contemplate other possible solutions?

I find it horribly unrealistic that anyone can expect to make a comfortable living off of $10.74 per hour when it takes double or triple this amount to cover the costs of living in my city.

Though you find my contributions to be out of place and irrelevant in this thread, I do feel that it's important whenever we discuss the mininum wage to question why certain Americans are satisifed relying on mininum wage jobs, when such an income isn't feasible for sustainment - never has been and never will be.

I still really cannot comprehend why you support raising the minimum wage, if you think that it accomplishes nothing and will have such disastrous effects.

 

[dawny0826]

I get your argument that raising the minimum wage will adversely effect small businesses, particularly of the struggling kind.

And yet, such an argument was out of place in this thread.

Yes, I have no doubt that raising the minimum wage will likely adversely affect some businesses- large or small- maybe even putting some out of business.

And this is a concern for me as the small businesses in my community are important too. Their families matter. Their employees matter.

This is the part of raising the mininum wage that makes me slightly uncomfortable, though I agree it needs to happen at this juncture. When the government essentially tells you that you have to pay your employees more when it's unfeasible for your business model...I have a problem with that as a libertarian and always will.

Those businesses that are struggling should have the opportunity to appeal such a mandate so as to KEEP their business and KEEP their employees, subsequently maintaining an economic foothold in their community.

This isn't the way it works.

My point is that on the whole, raising the minimum wage will ultimately benefit the majority of businesses, for the reasons I've already mentioned. Struggling, small businesses are likely to go out of business for a myriad of reasons, and I don't think that we should with-hold raising the minimum wage out of fear of culling a few more.

I resent your blanket labeling here, as not every situation mirrors the next.

In example, the small business I worked for would have let me go the moment that mininum wage increased. As I told you, the business was fine but had to adjust to the normal ebs and flow of seasonal work. To pay everyone more for less work would invevitably result in loss of jobs which would hurt productivity.

Though there are businesses that fit your bill - doomed regardless, there are others who will be screwed over by the government. That's what it translates to.

I also think that by singling out struggling small businesses you are missing the forest for the trees.

Again, I care as I know perhaps better than you do, the impact that this has on a community.

For one, minimum wage workers account for only 4.7% of hourly paid workers. For two, this will have a far greater effect upon big corporations, like Walmart, fast food places, and retail stores (like Sears), which don't fit the struggling, small business picture you are painting.

I realize. But, I don't have to feel warm and fuzzy about any American business suffering because the government demands that they do that which isn't feasible.

Regardless as to how small the percentage of businesses that might fit this description, it's still a concern to me as these are Americans that have their own families and their own goals to meet.

At the end of the day, the vast majority of minimum wage employers can afford to raise the minimum wage.

And, again, I'm not opposed to a raise in the mininum wage.

You seriously think that we live in a meritocracy? It's a sweet, tempting delusion, to be sure. But the U.S. doesn't work that way anymore, if it ever did. If you were born into money, you are far better equipped to make more money. If you were born into poverty, you are likely to stay there. We have some the worst upward mobility stats among the first world countries.

Why the hell do we have horrible upward mobility stats? We cultivate cycles of depedency like no other. I won't have this conversation with you and unless you work with t underprivilged in your community on a daily basis, I don't care to have this discussion with you.

And yes, income and wealth disparity is a big, big reason for this.

As is learned dependency and mediocrity.

 

[dawny0826]

I still really cannot comprehend why you support raising the minimum wage, if you think that it accomplishes nothing and will have such disastrous effects.

1. I never said it accomplishes nothing.

2. I never said it had DISASTROUS effects in a broad sense.

Your ability to twist meaning and place words in my mouth astounds. Let's give up now, okay?