Raymond Moody: Consciousness Survives Death

[TurkeyOnRye]

Being interested in creating a logical framework of consciousness and related topics such as reincarnation, mystical experiences, and near death experiences (NDEs), I thought it would be fascinating to explore this topic in detail to see if we can break ground on logical paths to these often foregone conclusions. I've linked to an interesting talk with Dr. Raymond Moody, who has studied NDEs for several decades and wrote books on the topic.

I'm quite comfortable making the assumption that most in the the Dharmic DIR accept the above assertion, and I'm in agreement with Dr. Moody about his conclusion that consciousness survives death. As a self-described "logician", he frames it in that simplistic way on purpose. Consciousness does appear to continue on following death of the physical body, although it is unclear what shape it will take. In my experience, this is one of the profound insights that can be found in meditation. In certain states of non-dual awareness, it becomes clearer that our conceptions of "then" and "there" are more like relative perceptions in a permanent state of now. Its description approaches ineffable but when personally confronted with it, it's extremely obvious. One of the clues that the answer lies in a dimension of timeless perception is the recognition of the absurdity of the concept of linear time. Regarding the nature of consciousness, if we base our questions on it being bound by linear time and presume that the answers to said questions also lie in linear time, we cannot arrive at satisfactory answers because we are greeted with an endless litany of conceptual before and afters that can be supplanted by arbitrarily asking what happened before or after that. This is apparent to most people, but because many are so unfamiliar with timeless perception, their investigative faculties cease up and they drop the question as either unanswerable or one to be answered by an authority other than themselves.

Thoughts?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Being interested in creating a logical framework of consciousness and related topics such as reincarnation, mystical experiences, and near death experiences (NDEs), I thought it would be fascinating to explore this topic in detail to see if we can break ground on logical paths to these often foregone conclusions. I've linked to an interesting talk with Dr. Raymond Moody, who has studied NDEs for several decades and wrote books on the topic.

I'm quite comfortable making the assumption that most in the the Dharmic DIR accept the above assertion, and I'm in agreement with Dr. Moody about his conclusion that consciousness survives death. As a self-described "logician", he frames it in that simplistic way on purpose. Consciousness does appear to continue on following death of the physical body, although it is unclear what shape it will take. In my experience, this is one of the profound insights that can be found in meditation. In certain states of non-dual awareness, it becomes clearer that our conceptions of "then" and "there" are more like relative perceptions in a permanent state of now. Its description approaches ineffable but when personally confronted with it, it's extremely obvious. One of the clues that the answer lies in a dimension of timeless perception is the recognition of the absurdity of the concept of linear time. Regarding the nature of consciousness, if we base our questions on it being bound by linear time and presume that the answers to said questions also lie in linear time, we cannot arrive at satisfactory answers because we are greeted with an endless litany of conceptual before and afters that can be supplanted by arbitrarily asking what happened before or after that. This is apparent to most people, but because many are so unfamiliar with timeless perception, their investigative faculties cease up and they drop the question as either unanswerable or one to be answered by an authority other than themselves.

Thoughts?

I doubt that. It would be better to say the potential for consciousness is always there.

 

[George-ananda]

Thoughts?

Well in my Advaita Vedanta (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) view, Consciousness/God/Brahman is fundamental. and this universe is a play of Consciousness.

At the practical level, the evidence from the paranormal (such as Near Death Experiences) has also convinced me beyond reasonable doubt that Consciousness survives death.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I doubt that. It would be better to say the potential for consciousness is always there.

Thanks for chiming in! Would you clarify what it is that you doubt exactly? I assume the doubt is directed toward the claim "consciousness survives death". Also, how is your second statement different from this claim?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Well in my Advaita Vedanta (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) view, Consciousness/God/Brahman is fundamental. and this universe is a play of Consciousness.

At the practical level, the evidence from the paranormal (such as Near Death Experiences) has also convinced me beyond reasonable doubt that Consciousness survives death.

What is the most compelling NDE evidence you've come across that indicates to you that consciousness survives death? Is any measure of it a matter of faith?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Thanks for chiming in! Would you clarify what it is that you doubt exactly? I assume the doubt is directed toward the claim "consciousness survives death". Also, how is your second statement different from this claim?

Well it's pretty safe to say consciousness isn't a single thing. It's multifaceted and aggregated. Illusory. Even shared as we are not in complete control of the living conscious components of our bodies.

Great example is, we are taken 'offline' on a regular basis as we sleep while the many conscious organisms within our bodies go about doing their thing and eventually we come ' online' again but the potential for 'online' isn't gone forever.

When we die we go offline again and rearranging occurs, albiet I suspect a far much longer and complex process follows.

All the components will be there, but conditions need to be ideal in order for the lights to come back on, but I suspect that happens indefinitely making the potential for consciousness always present as rearrangement makes conditions optimal again.

Like flames on candles being snuffed out and re lit our consciousness is always prone to interruption and reactivation.

 

[George-ananda]

What is the most compelling NDE evidence you've come across that indicates to you that consciousness survives death? Is any measure of it a matter of faith?

Probably the most compelling in that respect are Veridical NDE’s where the experiencer reports verifiable information not possibly or reasonably learned through normal channels.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Well it's pretty safe to say consciousness isn't a single thing.

Are you familiar with the experience or concept of oneness/non-dual perception? Most schools of thought on the subject tend to claim that multiplicity is the fundamental illusion, but it seems to me that the division is equally real and valid as the unity.

Like flames on candles being snuffed out and re lit our consciousness is always prone to interruption and reactivation.

To roll with your analogy, is it possible that the candle was never really snuffed out in the first place? In the same way that objects in a room do not disappear when the light is turned off, is it possible that this deactivation is also an illusion?

 

[Martin]

Consciousness surviving death sounds different to a soul surviving death.

 

[Twilight Hue]

To roll with your analogy, is it possible that the candle was never really snuffed out in the first place? In the same way that objects in a room do not disappear when the light is turned off, is it possible that this deactivation is also an illusion?

That's why I prefer the term potential. But it's not going to be possible if conditions are not met however.

When a flame is.snuffed out, its actually out.

But potential ensures its not actually permanent , because conditions can come around making it favorable for a flame to come into existence for periods of time until it gets snuffed out and lit back over and over.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Consciousness surviving death sounds different to a soul surviving death.

I think so. But I don't think consciousness is a constant as it comes and goes all the time.

Souls for me is just not on the table. I think its just a wishful mythology.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Probably the most compelling in that respect are Veridical NDE’s where the experiencer reports verifiable information not possibly or reasonably learned through normal channels.

Yes, these are extremely compelling pieces of evidence, at least to those directly involved. The trouble is that they are not taken very seriously at all by skeptics, who seem to dismiss them outright without a second thought. I'm not saying they should accept them automatically, or even accept them at all, especially given their non-experience with mystical phenomenon. But the mere fact that humans are capable of such wild and unconventional perceptions seems to me enough to merit honest investigation.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I think so. But I don't think consciousness is a constant as it comes and goes all the time.

Souls for me is just not on the table. I think its just a wishful mythology.

How do individuals who have out-of-body experiences fit within this mythology?

 

[Twilight Hue]

How do individuals who have out-of-body experiences fit within this mythology?

I think its a mental fantasy.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, these are extremely compelling pieces of evidence, at least to those directly involved. The trouble is that they are not taken very seriously at all by skeptics, who seem to dismiss them outright without a second thought. I'm not saying they should accept them automatically, or even accept them at all, especially given their non-experience with mystical phenomenon. But the mere fact that humans are capable of such wild and unconventional perceptions seems to me enough to merit honest investigation.

My concern is not really with skeptics acceptance (which they can make impossible) but with the question: All things considered what is most reasonable for me to believe.

Don't doubt that I have also spent countless hours debating with skeptics. I think some of them are in a never-say-die defense of materialism to an unreasonable degree.

Now veridical NDEs are not held by me to be proof of consciousness surviving death but are suggestive of that. For me the evidence beyond reasonable doubt comes from combination with other types of paranormal evidence including afterlife communications, reincarnation memories and such.

 

[George-ananda]

Consciousness surviving death sounds different to a soul surviving death.

In my Vedic and Theosophical understanding Consciousness/Brahman is what animates the soul which animates the physical body.

 

[Martin]

In my Vedic and Theosophical understanding Consciousness/Brahman is what animates the soul which animates the physical body.

But that's a sort of universal consciousness. The OP seems to be talking about the survival of an individual consciousness, like a soul or a mind.
It depends what definition of "consciousness" we're using. If it's just impersonal awareness, then there would be no memory of previous lives.

 

[George-ananda]

But that's a sort of universal consciousness. The OP seems to be talking about the survival of an individual consciousness, like a soul or a mind.
It depends what definition of "consciousness" we're using. If it's just impersonal awareness, then there would be no memory of previous lives.

I am saying, the INDIVIDUAL soul survives physical death and retains individual memories and traits.

Ultimately all Consciousness is One but the individual soul lives an eon with many lifetimes before Liberation/Nirvana/Moksha in Oneness.

 

[Martin]

I am saying, the INDIVIDUAL soul survives physical death and retains individual memories and traits.

Ultimately all Consciousness is One but the individual soul lives an eon with many lifetimes before Liberation/Nirvana/Moksha in Oneness.

For this to work, a soul would have to be more than consciousness. It would need to include a mind, something to contain memories and traits.

 

[George-ananda]

For this to work, a soul would have to be more than consciousness. It would need to include a mind, something to contain memories and traits.

Yes, (in Vedic and Theospophical schools) the soul is a individual spiritual body on a higher plane of nature than the physical. It is also called the Causal Body.