Raymond Moody: Consciousness Survives Death

[TurkeyOnRye]

I think its a mental fantasy.

In the attached video above, Dr Moody tells a story about a surgeon who was unable to resuscitate a patient. After the patient's wife stormed into the OR yelling at him that her husband told her he wasn't dead, he resumed resuscitation and revived him. Later in recovery, the moment the husband woke up, he told the surgeon that he tried to tell him that he wasn't dead, but because the surgeon wasn't responding to him, he went out into the lobby to tell his wife. Dr Moody tells the story a little better and offers some other details in the video, but in any case, what do you make of this?

 

[Martin]

I am saying, the INDIVIDUAL soul survives physical death and retains individual memories and traits.

Ultimately all Consciousness is One but the individual soul lives an eon with many lifetimes before Liberation/Nirvana/Moksha in Oneness.

OK, but I am observing that soul and consciousness are different things.
And that consciousness can be thought of in different ways.

 

[George-ananda]

OK, but I am observing that soul and consciousness are different things.
And that consciousness can be thought of in different ways.

Yes, in Advaita philosophy Consciousness/Brahman/God is fundamental meaning it is the only thing not created but exists eternally. Things like physical bodies, astral bodies and soul/causal bodies are all finite things that are all animated by the infinite fundamental Consciousness/God/Brahman.

So, the soul and Consciousness should be viewed as two different things.

Lets say that Consciousness/Brahman is like the sun. Light from the sun strikes a prism (soul). Light from the prism then strikes an object (physical body).

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but in any case, what do you make of this?

BS.

How do individuals who have out-of-body experiences fit within this mythology?

Either hallucination or charlatanry, making up stories.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are you familiar with the experience or concept of oneness/non-dual perception? Most schools of thought on the subject tend to claim that multiplicity is the fundamental illusion, but it seems to me that the division is equally real and valid as the unity.

To roll with your analogy, is it possible that the candle was never really snuffed out in the first place? In the same way that objects in a room do not disappear when the light is turned off, is it possible that this deactivation is also an illusion?

These are two worlds. 1. World of reality (in Advaita Hinduism, Paramrthika - Absolute truth), 2. World of Perception (Vyavaharika - pragmatic).
According to Advaita, there is no division in the first. The second has innumerable divisions.
A candle is not a suitable simile for life. A candle can be lighted again, never a life. Of course, there are stages, stoppage of heart activity, cessation of of brain activity, and complete death. Stoppage of heart activity and cessation of brain activity can be revived within proper time with proper medical help. Death is irreversible.
Death is an illusion in terms of Absolute truth, but a reality in perceived world.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Either hallucination or charlatanry, making up stories.

With regard to NDEs, given that the vividness and clarity of these hallucinations are reportedly more vivid and clear than ordinary waking consciousness, what then is the difference between a hallucination and so-called reality?

These are two worlds. 1. World of reality (in Advaita Hinduism, Paramrthika - Absolute truth), 2. World of Perception (Vyavaharika - pragmatic).
According to Advaita, there is no division in the first. The second has innumerable divisions.
A candle is not a suitable simile for life. A candle can be lighted again, never a life. Of course, there are stages, stoppage of heart activity, cessation of of brain activity, and complete death. Stoppage of heart activity and cessation of brain activity can be revived within proper time with proper medical help. Death is irreversible.
Death is an illusion in terms of Absolute truth, but a reality in perceived world.

If death in terms of absolute truth is an illusion, what is it that survives death of the physical body and what is its course thereafter?

 

[Aupmanyav]

With regard to NDEs, given that the vividness and clarity of these hallucinations are reportedly more vivid and clear than ordinary waking consciousness, what then is the difference between a hallucination and so-called reality?

If death in terms of absolute truth is an illusion, what is it that survives death of the physical body and what is its course thereafter?

In my belief (Advaita Hinduism), the perceived is an illusion, no difference.
What survives death is what we are constituted of - 'physical energy'. I term it as Brahman (mind you, it is not a God, it is the stuff). That, the molecules, go on to join millions of separate living or non-living things. What you are constituted of is REDISTRIBUTED.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

In my belief (Advaita Hinduism), the perceived is an illusion, no difference.
What survives death is what we are constituted of - 'physical energy'. I term it as Brahman (mind you, it is not a God, it is the stuff). That, the molecules, go on to join millions of separate living or non-living things. What you are constituted of is REDISTRIBUTED.

Thank you. Could you please respond to the first question from that post? → "With regard to NDEs, given that the vividness and clarity of these hallucinations are reportedly more vivid and clear than ordinary waking consciousness, what then is the difference between a hallucination and so-called reality?"

 

[Aupmanyav]

Could you please respond to the first question from that post? → "With regard to NDEs, given that the vividness and clarity of these hallucinations are reportedly more vivid and clear than ordinary waking consciousness, what then is the difference between a hallucination and so-called reality?"

What kind of reality you want a hallucination to be compared with, given that in my view there are two kinds (actually three kinds of realities).
1. Paramarthika (Absolute reality, no hallucination there)
2. Vyavaharika (Perceived, hallucination will not be permanent)
3. Pratibhasika (mirrored, which a person under stress or psychological constraints, or a mad person will perceive, hallucination may be permanent).

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

What kind of reality you want a hallucination to be compared with, given that in my view there are two kinds (actually three kinds of realities).
1. Paramarthika (Absolute reality, no hallucination there)
2. Vyavaharika (Perceived, hallucination will not be permanent)
3. Pratibhasika (mirrored, which a person under stress or psychological constraints, or a mad person will perceive, hallucination may be permanent).

Perhaps it would be helpful if you explain what you mean by the word "hallucination". Also, if what we deem as ordinary "reality" is less vivid than most reported NDEs (which you disregarded as hallucinations), what does this tell us about what we believe to be "reality"?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Like a God speaking to some one is hallucination. Believing in what one experienced in an NDE is hallucination - a white robed gent holding your hand and taking you along a tunnel before a white-out occurs is hallucination. You go nowhere, it is the mind, brain activity, which is spreading out a scenario. Ordinary reality is an illusion. It does not give a hint about dance of forces of nature and atoms.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Like a God speaking to some one is hallucination. Believing in what one experienced in an NDE is hallucination - a white robed gent holding your hand and taking you along a tunnel before a white-out occurs is hallucination. You go nowhere, it is the mind, brain activity, which is spreading out a scenario. Ordinary reality is an illusion. It does not give a hint about dance of forces of nature and atoms.

You are giving examples of what you interpret to be hallucinations, but I would like you to define it, if you can. I don't see a distinction between your use of "hallucination" and the "illusion" of ordinary reality. Does reality need to be corroborated by science or your fellow human to be considered "reality"? If so, why?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, let us take the help of Wikipedia:
Illusion: An illusion is a distortion of the senses, which can reveal how the human brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. Although illusions distort our perception of reality, they are generally shared by most people.
Hallucination: A hallucination is a perception in the absence of an external stimulus that has the qualities of a real perception.
Hallucinations also differ from "delusional perceptions", in which a correctly sensed and interpreted stimulus (i.e., a real perception) is given some additional significance. Many hallucinations happen also during sleep paralyses.

Hallucinations can occur in any sensory modality - visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile, proprioceptive, equilibrioceptive, nociceptive, thermoceptive and chronoceptive.

"Does reality need to be corroborated by science or your fellow human to be considered "reality"? If so, why?": Yes, what we perceive as reality has to be checked (normally the brain does it without our realizing it). For example, a mirage is an illusion. We see it so very often in summers of New Delhi as if there is water on the road. Our brain checks (without our realizing) whether there are clouds in the sky, has a drain or a pipe is broken somewhere, has a municipal cleaning van has showered water on the road (then, no part of the road should be dry, not just the patch in distance).

April 20, 2017. 43 degree centigrade (That is the Indian President's Official Residence). Mirage seen in New Delhi - Google Search