Re: What use does an atheist have for deities?

[Erebus]

True happiness and not placeboes of happiness.

This piqued my interest. What would you say is the difference?

 

[sealchan]

The goal of religion is happiness. True happiness and not placeboes of happiness.

This is what I refer to as the anchor of faith...the sense that at some level one must believe that ones faith has a literal, objective basis in truth although one cannot prove it scientifically. I dont see this so much as a fault as i do a seemingly necessary feature. It keeps my inner believer and my inner atheist forever bound together on "opposing sides" of a Moebius strip.

 

[syo]

This piqued my interest. What would you say is the difference?

Placeboes of happiness are based on faith. See the christians. you doubt jesus and their world is shaken.

 

[syo]

This is what I refer to as the anchor of faith...the sense that at some level one must believe that ones faith has a literal, objective basis in truth although one cannot prove it scientifically. I dont see this so much as a fault as i do a seemingly necessary feature. It keeps my inner believer and my inner atheist forever bound together on "opposing sides" of a Moebius strip.

faith is a placebo. christians have faith. doubt their jesus and they cry.

 

[sealchan]

I have no need for gods/deities/demigods/supernstsupe/worship etc. With the definition of atheism including lack of belief in gods i would assume atheists in general don't.

That said, i have a strong belief in humanity, nature, my family. If people wish to call them deities they are welcome.

Atheists dreams are as riddled with symbols as the myths of any religion. They are useful therefore to atheists as a means to interpret ones own psychology and effect potentially useful alterations of it.

 

[sealchan]

faith is a placebo. christians have faith. doubt their jesus and they cry.

The whiney ones do who come to forums with a chip on their shoulder.

 

[syo]

The whiney ones do who come to forums with a chip on their shoulder.

all christians are the same. they hope god exists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Rather than worship Varuna, why not just honour water?

Oh no, Vinayaka. All the fun is lost.

Deities (in this case, the Hindu Devas) are powerful symbols of certain ideals or doctrines.
It is not only possible for an atheist to make constructive use of them (at least if the misconception that we actually believe in their literal existence as deities proper can be avoided), it is in my opinion the proper way of using deity-concepts, even for theists.
I truly wonder if early theists ever expected people to go to the lengths that some modern theists go.

Sure, Rama is the Hindu symbol of righteousness and Krishna is the Hindu symbol of practicality. That does not require their existence or historicity. Even atheist can give their example.
I think the Indian sages were well aware of this and used them in this way. I do not think Ashtavakra Gita or Yoga Vasishta have any use for deities (though I have not read them in detail. That is because I do not need any further explanation).

 

[Etritonakin]

From another thread, where I unfortunately can not post:


Deities (in this case, the Hindu Devas) are powerful symbols of certain ideals or doctrines.

It is not only possible for an atheist to make constructive use of them (at least if the misconception that we actually believe in their literal existence as deities proper can be avoided), it is in my opinion the proper way of using deity-concepts, even for theists.

I truly wonder if early theists ever expected people to go to the lengths that some modern theists go.

Well.... A real one could get you out of pickles such as death and world destruction.

Maybe off your point, but...
Essentially, a "god" is one in a higher position in terms of power, knowledge, ability -and, hopefully, good will.
"God" -capital "G" -is described as "the most high".

Even given the likelihood of life forms in the universe if man developed without any creative input, some of those would likely possess "godlike" attributes from our perspective -and might be further along in their ability to not die or destroy their environment -but the sum of all things developing self-awareness, identity, creativity, etc., would be perfectly natural as well -and sufficiently answers all questions regarding the present state of things.

In any case, they would be valuable resources. Imagine not having to reverse-engineer everything and being granted access to the sum of all knowledge -if and when they were willing.

 

[ChristineM]

Atheists dreams are as riddled with symbols as the myths of any religion. They are useful therefore to atheists as a means to interpret ones own psychology and effect potentially useful alterations of it.

I don't dream of religion or its myths.

 

[icehorse]

All the Gods are real, and they are also powerful symbols. You can be both, just as a ship Captain is both a real person, and the walking embodiment of the ship itself.

Can you define "real" in this context?

 

[icehorse]

It's the perfect symbol for Christ. It's hard to explain in a few words.

But whereas you see only the instrument of torture and death.

We see the love, sacrifice, and the conquering of death.

Do you also see scapegoating?

 

[ecco]

Some forms of Satanism are atheistic, in such Satan is a symbolic rather than literal figure.

How can belief in a supernatural anti-god be atheistic? I don't know any atheists who believe in Satan.

 

[sealchan]

The goal of religion is happiness. True happiness and not placeboes of happiness.

True vs placebo...I think that this is an apt metaphor. I want to unpack it!

A placebo is used in medical research to determine whether a person's health improves due to the medication or due to their psychological attitude toward a supposed medication. As such a placebo is meant to differentiate between what is physical and what is psychological.

But is there such thing as a psychological placebo when we are talking about unprovable beliefs? Placebos are, in this context, evidence of the real power of the mind to effect changes in its own awareness. Placebos do real work in the psyche.

And interestingly even in medical studies psychological attitude can have a real impact on physical well-being. The two are not unrelated. What they are is so complicated and difficult to measure that we have to resort to these sorts of tricks currently to get at a sense of objective truth.

For me symbols are real medications of the psyche, the soul and given the right symbol/pill you can get life impacting transformation of the human personality for the betterment of that individual and his/her society.

 

[ecco]

faith is a placebo.

A placebo or an opioid? I guess it depends on who is answering.

 

[sealchan]

How can belief in a supernatural anti-god be atheistic? I don't know any atheists who believe in Satan.

I knew one atheist who had a dream of Satan...

 

[syo]

True vs placebo...I think that this is an apt metaphor. I want to unpack it!

A placebo is used in medical research to determine whether a person's health improves due to the medication or due to their psychological attitude toward a supposed medication. As such a placebo is meant to differentiate between what is physical and what is psychological.

But is there such thing as a psychological placebo when we are talking about unprovable beliefs? Placebos are, in this context, evidence of the real power of the mind to effect changes in its own awareness. Placebos do real work in the psyche.

Any interestingly even in medical studies psychological attitude can have a real impact on physical well-being. The two are not unrelated. What they are is so complicated and difficult to measure that we have to resort to these sorts of tricks currently to get at a sense of objective truth.

For me symbols are real medications of the psyche, the soul and given the right symbol/pill you can get life impacting transformation of the human personality for the betterment of that individual and his/her society.

And what happens if you stop the placebo? We are depended on placeboes? fake hapiness.

 

[sealchan]

all christians are the same. they hope god exists.

Some Christians have had certain experiences which compel them to believe but I might agree with you that MOST Christians may be in that condition.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well.... A real one could get you out of pickles such as death and world destruction.

What if a Hindu does not FALL into such pickles (yeah, people fall into these pickles by their own choice)? in 'Advaita' Hinduism (non-duality), there are no pickles. No creation, no birth, no death, no heaven, no hell, no destruction.

 

[sealchan]

And what happens if you stop the placebo? We are depended on placeboes? fake hapiness.

You stop when the placebo's effect begins to wear off. Symbols are both objective and subjective. Like real medicines they are meant to adjust the body/the mind, not be used in perpetuity. When one no longer feels the "numinous power" of the symbol then one naturally abandons it. Great spiritual literature, however, contains enough wealth that one can "mine" it for gold one's whole life. That is why I see spiritual truth as a life long journey rather than an acquisition of one moment of revelation or transformation which dissolves into a mere dogma gradually afterwards.

We are complex, adaptive body-minds which develop creative orientations to our natural and social environment and which suffer from physical and mental malfunctions which can and should be treated. Spiritual advisors are at best "medicine men/women" and at worst bureaucrats of a dogmatic order...they prescribe what you need not teach you rote lessons (well with exceptions for the meditative disciplines).