Reason to Believe

[Mock Turtle]

I believe a common statement in Christianity is that making no choice is still making a choice and immortalized in a Rush song.

I do believe that lacks evidence.

I believe the evidence is that Christianity fulfills the purposes of God and other religions do not. I have no reservations about that.

I believe that Christianity is true to the purposes of God and other religions are not.

I believe if one wishes to prove something is false the burden of proof falls on that person and it is not incumbent for a religion to prove it is true.

I believe what this usually amounts to is a disbelief in evidence. I once pointed out a fact in a newspaper that supported my position on something to my brother and his response was that he didn't believe the newspaper. That makes a lot more sense to me now than it did then.

I believe we differ in views.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe that comes under the heading of making up your own rules as to what God should be like. Unfortunately God does not feel obliged to follow your rules.

But there is one set of rules despite there being many different religious beliefs?

 

[InChrist]

If the church is still a work “in progress” don’t you think that 2000 years is a long time for it to still be in progress? I mean many people complain about the Baha’is not being shining examples of their religion, not being perfectly spiritual, but the Baha’i Faith has only been around for 165 years.

To us, yes, it does seem like a long time, but probably from God's eternal perspective it's not long. After all, the scriptures says...But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

Logically speaking, there is absolutely no way that the scriptures speak for themselves and that people do not impose their personal ideas upon them. Scriptures do not speak; they require someone to read them and interpret them. Some verses are easy to interpret such as the ones I cited below, but some such as Colossians 2:9; 1:19 could mean more than one thing... and this is what causes all the problems, ambibuous verses. Moreover, since every human being is completely different in their knowledge base and how they think that means there is no way that everyone could ever interpret all verses the same way...

So back to my question; How can there be one Bible interpretation that is correct and even if one was correct how could anyone ever know which interpretation of correct?

I agree people impose their own interpretations on the scriptures. All I'm saying is that I believe there is a one, true interpretation which God intends and I believe He will reveal such to those who seek His interpretation and meaning and wait for Him to show it (2 Peter 1;20-21) . The problem is that too often people are not willing to seek or submit their minds to God. But also, I think there is simply the fact that everyone in the church who reads the scriptures is at a different place in their spiritual understanding and while that may often look confusing from our perspective, God sees the bigger picture and He is okay with that because He also sees the growth and progress among believers that we don't always see.

According to everything I have ever read and also this article below, the Council of Nicaea was held primarily for the “purpose of defining the nature of God for all of Christianity and eliminating confusion, controversy, and contention within the church.”

Well, I do agree that one of the main issues was the nature of God/Jesus because of the Arian controversy.

No, the New Testament does not teach that. Jesus never claimed to coequal with God and Jesus never wanted to be worshiped as God.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was and to worship only God:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

That simply demonstrates how the Bible can be interpreted differently by different people and some interpretations are just wrong, if Jesus really said those things.

The apostle Paul tells us that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9; 1:19). Then Paul was wrong, because Jesus disclaimed being God and an Almighty God does not dwell inside of any human being. This is a complete misconstruing of Bible verses and it is a travesty.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Nobody can be a man and God at the same time; that is logically inconsistent. The Trinity is thus a ridiculous doctrine. One is either God or one is a man, these are mutually exclusive categories. However, Jesus could have been a hybrid, a God-man, and that makes complete logical sense because Jesus was above any ordinary man and subordinate to God, according to the scriptures..

There is absolutely no way that Jesus is God, unless many different verses of the Bible are wrong, so let’s look at some verses. If Colossians means that Jesus is God, then the other verses cited below that are also from Paul cannot be right, because they differentiate Jesus from God:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

These last two verses accurately represent who Jesus was, a man made in the image of the invisible God, a mediator between God and men. That fits perfectly with what I said above, that Jesus was a hybrid, a God-man, because that is what allowed Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. As a God-man, Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God, something no other human could ever be. But Jesus was not actually God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh. If God was flesh, that would contradict these verses:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I used to deny the Trinity and I never fully understood that Jesus is God, but when I was born again it was as if my eyes were given sight to see these realities in the scriptures. Of course, just because I see this doesn't mean it's true, but I believe God will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks. I also believe that Jesus has to be God to be the Savior and the scriptures do show this. You have listed a lot of verses. I have thoughts concerning each one and think the Bible gives clarification, but one or two at a time would be easier to address.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the survival of the fittest is precisely what Christianity is all about. Those who are fit go into eternal life and those who are not die and eventually go to hell.

That is an arrogant belief. Christianity is the main reason people are atheists. I cannot say as I blame them one bit. Why should anyone believe such blarney? This is the age of reason.

Many will go to eternal life who are not Christians. Christianity is not the only true religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree people impose their own interpretations on the scriptures. All I'm saying is that I believe there is a one, true interpretation which God intends and I believe He will reveal such to those who seek His interpretation and meaning and wait for Him to show it (2 Peter 1;20-21) . The problem is that too often people are not willing to seek or submit their minds to God. But also, I think there is simply the fact that everyone in the church who reads the scriptures is at a different place in their spiritual understanding and while that may often look confusing from our perspective, God sees the bigger picture and He is okay with that because He also sees the growth and progress among believers that we don't always see.

I think there might be one true interpretation of some verses but there some verses can have multiple meanings. I do not think that God reveals anything to anyone except the Prophets/Messengers of God. I believe in free will and that we have to seek and find for ourselves. I do not believe in an indwelt Holy Spirit, but rather that the Holy Spirit is released by the coming of a Prophet/Messengers of God, and it affects everything in the world. For example, this passage explains the “effects” of the Holy Spirit being released into the world by Jesus:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

I used to deny the Trinity and I never fully understood that Jesus is God, but when I was born again it was as if my eyes were given sight to see these realities in the scriptures. Of course, just because I see this doesn't mean it's true, but I believe God will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks. I also believe that Jesus has to be God to be the Savior and the scriptures do show this. You have listed a lot of verses. I have thoughts concerning each one and think the Bible gives clarification, but one or two at a time would be easier to address.

I was just listing all those verses to make some points, not that we could discuss all of them.

I do not believe that God reveals His Essence to anyone, but God reveals His Attributes and His Will to His chosen Prophets/Messengers such as Jesus.

I also believe that God guides the true seekers. This is an excerpt from a long Tablet called Tablet of the True Seeker:

“These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the path of Positive Knowledge. When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

I do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate but rather I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. The difference is that Christians believe that God became Jesus but I believe that God manifested His Attributes in Jesus, so I believe that Jesus was a perfect reflection of God, a mirror image of God, and that is congruent with this verse:

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I do not believe that the Essence of God can descend from exaltation of its holiness and become a man.

“So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.” Some Answered Questions, p. 114

I see no reason why Jesus would have to be God in order to be the Savior. There is no reason why God cannot send Jesus on a “mission” to be the Savior and I believe that is what God did. I believe that Jesus was sinless.

 

[InChrist]

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. I read your entire post, but have only responded to some of your points.

I was just listing all those verses to make some points, not that we could discuss all of them.

Oh, okay. I did get your points, but do think it is important to read those verses in there context and in light of the entire Bible, also taking into consideration that Jesus was speaking from the lowered position of His humanity at the time.

I do not believe that God reveals His Essence to anyone, but God reveals His Attributes and His Will to His chosen Prophets/Messengers such as Jesus.

So are you saying that anyone, like you or I, cannot know God or His will? The scriptures appear to use language that is inclusive and inviting anyone and everyone to find and know God and Jesus taught His disciples to pray God's will be done.

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 4:29

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer. 29:13

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matt. 7:7

I see no reason why Jesus would have to be God in order to be the Savior. There is no reason why God cannot send Jesus on a “mission” to be the Savior and I believe that is what God did. I believe that Jesus was sinless.

Because Jesus was sinless is one of the main reasons I believe He had to be God who came to dwell in the flesh, since God alone is capable of being sinless. Besides, I think that God alone has the ability to save and to have borne the weight of all the sins of the world with the power to then rise again to new life. I cannot imagine any created being or human on a mission ever able to accomplish this and I believe the scriptures validate that God alone is the Savior.

I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45:21

“Yet I am the Lord your God Ever since the land of Egypt, And you shall know no God but Me; For there is no savior besides Me. Hosea 13:4

For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. I read your entire post, but have only responded to some of your points.

Oh, okay. I did get your points, but do think it is important to read those verses in there context and in light of the entire Bible, also taking into consideration that Jesus was speaking from the lowered position of His humanity at the time.

In order to address the lowered position vs. the elevated position of Jesus I have to explain things regarding my beliefs about the nature of Jesus...

First, I believe that there has been more than one Prophet/Messenger sent by God, which Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God. They all have the same nature, and they all had a mission entrusted to them by God, but some such as Jesus had a more vital mission and they had qualities that made the other prophets dependent upon them.

I do not like to use the word “prophet” because people think in terms of the other prophets of the Bible that are not of the same station as the Higher Prophets like Jesus. This short chapter explains the difference: 43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS

So back to what you said about Jesus; I believe that in His first station Jesus speaks as a self-effaced man, wherein He humbles Himself before God, and in His second station Jesus speaks as God, wherein He acts as the Mouthpiece of God, the Representative of God among men. In this second station, Jesus is speaking as God, but I do not believe that Jesus was actually God in the flesh, because the Essence of God cannot become flesh. However, Jesus perfectly manifested the Attributes of God and the Will of to humanity. The difference between an incarnation of God and a Manifestation of God is explained in this excerpt from a longer article:

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of Go."
From: Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

So are you saying that anyone, like you or I, cannot know God or His will? The scriptures appear to use language that is inclusive and inviting anyone and everyone to find and know God and Jesus taught His disciples to pray God's will be done.

No, I am not saying that at all. God reveals His Will to His Manifestations such as Jesus and we know God’s Will and God’s Attributes through them. That is what I believe Jesus meant when He said:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That means that we cannot know God directly, only through Jesus...

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 4:29

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer. 29:13

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matt. 7:7

Yes, but we find God through Jesus, and I believe that before Jesus came into the world, the Jews found God through Moses.

Because Jesus was sinless is one of the main reasons I believe He had to be God who came to dwell in the flesh, since God alone is capable of being sinless. Besides, I think that God alone has the ability to save and to have borne the weight of all the sins of the world with the power to then rise again to new life. I cannot imagine any created being or human on a mission ever able to accomplish this and I believe the scriptures validate that God alone is the Savior.

You are right that God alone has the ability to save, but God sent Jesus as our Savior that thereby we could be saved, since that was the “mission” of Jesus. Jesus saved by His sacrifice and by giving is His teachings (the profusion of His bounties) which enabled us to turn away from sin and towards God:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

According to my beliefs, Jesus was sinless. I do not believe that God is sinless. God is above being sinless because God is not a man who is subject to morals. God is above anything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

The Bible says “for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) but that description does not apply to the various Manifestations of God such as Jesus because these Holy Souls are all pure and sinless, not by virtue of the physical conditions surrounding their advents, but because the spiritual nature of the Manifestation of God is different from that of the ordinary human. Whilst they share with us the human condition (they are born, live out their lives on earth, suffer weaknesses such as hunger and illness, enjoy human emotions such as love, and eventually they suffer physical death) nevertheless they have a different spiritual nature than the rest of humanity. Unlike us, they are pre-existent and free from sin. The following passage explains why they confessed their sins.

“How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him “Good Master.” Christ answered, “Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God.” 3 This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.” Some Answered Questions, p. 170

I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45:21

“Yet I am the Lord your God Ever since the land of Egypt, And you shall know no God but Me; For there is no savior besides Me. Hosea 13:4

The verses you cited above demonstrate why Jews get so angry at Christians who say the Jesus was God. Of course, Jews do not even believe that Jesus was a Prophet, but they were wrong about that. Jesus referred to Himself as a prophet (as in those verses I cited in a previous post).

For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I do not disagree with those verses. Christ can be referred to as Lord because in a sense He was God, just not an incarnation of God. Jesus is also God with us because Jesus is a perfect Manifestation of God. Christ makes you a new creation because He has the power of God, to transform you and make you new.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You ask questions that are impossible to answer. I know what I feel, and that's all anyone can know (with respect to spiritual knowledge, that is).

So then how is "spiritual knowledge" knowledge at all? How is what you describe any different from a gut feeling?