Reasons for atheism

[Tomef]

If what I say doesn't make sense, explain why.

You don’t appear to be responding to what I wrote in the posts you replied to, which puts me in the position of having to explain the same thing again.

 

[blü 2]

I agree with you there, that the story is a big part of it. It is a great story, I think, really effective at conveying that sense of community, continuity, purpose, meaning etc. I suppose people can get so deep into that it feels like the only reality. I still get surprised though by people who have really studied the bible and its history, who understand that it’s basically just a book people wrote, and somehow still kind of do a mental slide past anything that doesn’t fit with what they want to believe.

You may have come across Edward FitzGerald's The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, which among much more, contains the verse:

The Revelations of Devout and Learn’d​

Who rose before us, and as Prophets burn’d,​

Are all but Stories, which, awoke from Sleep​

They told their comrades, and to Sleep return’d.​

 

[Kfox]

You don’t appear to be responding to what I wrote in the posts you replied to, which puts me in the position of having to explain the same thing again.

I think you are missing the point I was trying to convey. My view is that it is just as unreasonable to apply deity status to inanimate objects like the Sun, Nature, or the Tree in my scenario; as it is applying to humans like Haille, Kumari, or Jesus. You seem to find it more reasonable to apply deity status to humans, if I am understanding you correctly

 

[F1fan]

I appreciate that many people are atheist because they see no reason not to be. I'm interested in hearing from people who did have a belief, or were agnostic, and chose atheism for a specific reason.

I don't think people are atheists due to a choice. From what I observe "atheist" is an existing category that non-believers fall into as a conseqence of sound thinking.

I never really had belief in religious beliefs. I was taken to church as a kid and I always asked why we had to go. I was given answers but was never satisfied. I saw my Baptist aunt not get along with my Catholic aunt and the dispute ruined holidays. As a kid I saw something very wrong with Christianity for it to lead to this. So I was naturally skeptical and as I grew up I kept looking for some answer that made all this make sense. The more I looked the more I found religion to not be what it claims. Once in my 30's I started readong and thinking and that is when I understood I could fall into the category of atheist. There is no option. The only solution is for an actual God to apvear, and then explain how religions went so wrong.

 

[idea]

Intentional evil, vs "It's just the laws of nature"

Natural laws is a better way to justify evil.

 

[Tomef]

You may have come across Edward FitzGerald's The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, which among much more, contains the verse:

The Revelations of Devout and Learn’d​

Who rose before us, and as Prophets burn’d,​

Are all but Stories, which, awoke from Sleep​

They told their comrades, and to Sleep return’d.​

I’ve never actually read it, so thanks for giving me a reason to.

 

[Tomef]

I think you are missing the point I was trying to convey. My view is that it is just as unreasonable to apply deity status to inanimate objects like the Sun, Nature, or the Tree in my scenario; as it is applying to humans like Haille, Kumari, or Jesus. You seem to find it more reasonable to apply deity status to humans, if I am understanding you correctly

No, I just mean that there’s a difference between a person and a person people think of as a god, or a tree and a tree people claim as a god - a difference in the minds of the believers that is. If someone says ‘that bloke Jesus is god’ but when asked why gives no reason, just says Jesus is some guy he calls god, that’s just a misapplied word. If he claims Jesus has some kind of divine property however he then has a belief system. Same with a tree, or a coffee cup. If I claim my coffee cup is god I need to have some belief about the cup that would fit some aspect of what is meant by the word god.

 

[blü 2]

I’ve never actually read it, so thanks for giving me a reason to.

The first and fourth editions are the ones that matter. If you're interested, I'd suggest starting with the >fourth<.

 

[Kfox]

No, I just mean that there’s a difference between a person and a person people think of as a god, or a tree and a tree people claim as a god - a difference in the minds of the believers that is. If someone says ‘that bloke Jesus is god’ but when asked why gives no reason, just says Jesus is some guy he calls god, that’s just a misapplied word.

Yeah; but people who call Jesus God don’t do that; they point to a book written by someone who claims Jesus is God and they believe the book. How is that different from someone point to a book saying Nature is God? Or the claim when Halle Selassie stepped off the plane, and waived his hand across the sky, the miracle of rain started ending the drought, that this is something only a deity could do? (even though there is no actual TV footage of this actually happening)

If he claims Jesus has some kind of divine property however he then has a belief system. Same with a tree, or a coffee cup. If I claim my coffee cup is god I need to have some belief about the cup that would fit some aspect of what is meant by the word god.

I agree.

 

[Nakosis]

I appreciate that many people are atheist because they see no reason not to be. I'm interested in hearing from people who did have a belief, or were agnostic, and chose atheism for a specific reason.

Personally, I'm agnostic on whether or not there might be something that, if we encountered it, we would consider to be a kind of superior being something like what we'd call a deity. I mean, I suppose it is possible. I'm atheist as far as the chances of such a being matching up with the ideas of any of our human religions, though. I had a fairly brief dalliance with Christian faith, but the easily researchable, although time-consuming, fact of the fictional origins of the existence of gods, and the history of the creation of religious texts (based on earlier texts, earlier beliefs and so on) makes it very obvious that all of our religions were created by us. None of the divine revelation claims fit how the various religious books actually came to have the form they have now.

So, that's my main reason for rejecting the various ideas religions present about gods and salvation. I think religions have had some uses in a social sense, but that it's about time we left them behind. But that's for another thread. Please give your reasons for why you became an atheist if you have any that are specific.

God for the most part doesn't work.
Whatever you think can be done with God is not very reliable.
Therefore God isn't very useful as a belief beyond self pleasuring.

Once you get beyond the need for continual self-pleasuring, you find there is very little need for God.
So here's a God belief. Well what am I suppose to do with it. Maybe if I could shine doorknobs with it, it'd be useful.
Whereas any old household rag is much more useful than God.

 

[Tomef]

Yeah; but people who call Jesus God don’t do that; they point to a book written by someone who claims Jesus is God and they believe the book. How is that different from someone point to a book saying Nature is God? Or the claim when Halle Selassie stepped off the plane, and waived his hand across the sky, the miracle of rain started ending the drought, that this is something only a deity could do? (even though there is no actual TV footage of this actually happening)

Those are god claims, i.e. claims that the person in question has some kind of divine power or characteristic. It doesn’t make any difference how that belief is arrived at, the point is people claim to believe someone or something is a god based on some quality that, according to their belief, lifts that person/thing above others. Pantheism is different of course, but then it comes with a different notion about what divine means, and doesn’t separate out individual people or trees as ‘gods’

 

[Tomef]

God for the most part doesn't work.
Whatever you think can be done with God is not very reliable.
Therefore God isn't very useful as a belief beyond self pleasuring.

Once you get beyond the need for continual self-pleasuring, you find there is very little need for God.
So here's a God belief. Well what am I suppose to do with it. Maybe if I could shine doorknobs with it, it'd be useful.
Whereas any old household rag is much more useful than God.

Self pleasuring is a god thing?

 

[Nakosis]

Self pleasuring is a god thing?

There are a lot of things folks do to pleasure themselves. Believing in God is just one of them.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

This will be a longer post than most. My deconstruction story started about six months ago. So for the longest time, I have been disgusted by the way conservative Christians, and some just religious folk in general treat others such as the LGBTQ community, other minorities, immigrants, etc. This is what ultimately made me question my belief system, and belief in a religion that tolerates such hateful notions. I think I take it personally, given my personal sexuality.

So, after that thought process, I had started learning different things regarding Christianity. Due to my indoctrination since a young child, I grew up believing everything in the Bible to be true. However, when I started researching into things, I had no idea how many contradictions there were, and ultimately, looking back on it, immoral things in the Bible from this so called loving, compassionate god. After discovering this, and also the concept of Deism, my faith in religion and ultimately Christianity completely fell apart. That, also with some personal things going on, pretty much made me lose complete faith in any kind of Christian god. My belief system in Deism, shortly after, also fizzled out as I found it didn't make much sense, even though it made more sense to me then the concepts of Christianity. But in my mind, basically a do nothing, uninvolved god isn't really any better than no god at all. The concept is basically the same. I came to the notion of being Agnostic, which led me to question if I could be an atheist as well. So this has how I came to identify, especially after the death of my Father about two months ago, I have come to the realization that I don't really believe in any gods, especially the christian god first and foremost. But I don't claim to know this as it is unknowable IMO. So I now consider myself to be an agnostic atheist. Also, a secular humanist, for the most part, is my worldview, since atheism really only answers the god question and nothing else.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

My initial reason for stopping attending church or considering myself a theist or Christian as a teenager was that I found the doctrine of original sin (and its connection to the Atonement) to be morally repugnant. Studying religion (Christianity in particular) and philosophy at university only deepened my rejection and eventually made me an anti-theist in addition to an atheist.

 

[Tomef]

My initial reason for stopping attending church or considering myself a theist or Christian as a teenager was that I found the doctrine of original sin (and its connection to the Atonement) to be morally repugnant. Studying religion (Christianity in particular) and philosophy at university only deepened my rejection and eventually made me an anti-theist in addition to an atheist.

Anti-theist meaning something like you find the concept of a deity offensive?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Anti-theist meaning something like you find the concept of a deity offensive?

Not exactly, more like opposition to theism on ethical grounds. If atheism is the rejection of theism on the grounds that it is false, anti-theism is the rejection of theism on the grounds that it is pernicious.

 

[osgart]

If you look at God in general what comes to mind? For me it's that there is a living entity that has power and authority over life. That's what a God is. The other claim to Godhood is one of true justice, and right morals. I've heard guys like Professor John Lennox describe this universe as a moral universe. There's absolutely no reason to conclude that the universe is moral. It doesn't care one way or the other what happens. It ends life without discretion nor purposes.

Now everything may have a reason, but those reasons are not built on fairness, or anything other than physical laws. Life and justice have completely contrary motives to what existence offers. The fact that humans can and often have chose to make morals important is that it's the only way forward to make a quality of life. What one desires to live their life by, you can expect that others may have common desires to live their lives as well. Deeper then that people take offense to things that they do not condone, and are very much against. So every human, if they want to live, is forced to consider what is fair and reasonable for all.

Since many humans do not care what is fair or reasonable, only what is effective in achieving their goals of power, control, reputation, and desired relation, we have a situation where people seek dominance not fairness and reasonability. The instinct to dominate often prevails and fear and oppression thrive. No force in the universe governs fairness and reasonability. People decide for better or worse what morality or immorality they are going to choose, and they become highly selective about it. There are in and out groups and not a lot of universality. There are divisions within religions, there are divisions everywhere.

My morality goes from general virtues meant entirely for introspection, to external circumstances and specific situations. Life at best is very challenging in how morality is applied, and often times your left with bad, and lesser bad alternatives. The ideals of morality and virtue do not easily connect with existence and reality. That is why there is no God.

People make freedom, and rights upon the Earth. No God to be found. Yet the more we stray from the virtues, and obvious values the more difficult life becomes. Meanwhile genocide, and children with cancer dying, tsunamis, earthquakes, and other senseless brutalities exist. There's no consistent morality that applies equally to everyone. No moral universe!

 

[Heyo]

If you look at God in general what comes to mind? For me it's that there is a living entity that has power and authority over life. That's what a God is. The other claim to Godhood is one of true justice, and right morals. I've heard guys like Professor John Lennox describe this universe as a moral universe. There's absolutely no reason to conclude that the universe is moral. It doesn't care one way or the other what happens. It ends life without discretion nor purposes.

At least, the universe is just. It is an equal opportunity killer. No matter your status, belief or morals, you'll be accelerated at 9.81 m/s² when you fall off a cliff. No exceptions.

 

[Tomef]

The ideals of morality and virtue do not easily connect with existence and reality. That is why there is no God.

This lack of some sense of morality inherent in the universe is the main thing that convinced you there is no god?

I suppose it could be argued that the need to cooperate in order to thrive shapes and drives ethical behaviour to some extent, in broad strokes. As you say, it’s not a question of rules that apply in every situation in a straightforward manner, but something like the selfish gene idea seems to be in operation. Which does away with the need to invent a divine being as a means to explain or enforce ethics.