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Reasons For or Against Kavanaugh's Confirmation

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
Eh, he's a dick.
A dick who was crying over calendars, I might add.
That according to him, his dad read to him when he was 14 years old.
It's not like the his dad was dead or anything either, he was right behind him when this happened.
What a weirdo, lol.

I'll say no.

On a more serious note, he's lied under oath, and refused an investigation.
That's not usually something that innocent people do.
And the calendar thing was pretty weird.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
American partisanship is insane.

So insane I can state "The Kavanaugh hearings are the most ridiculous act of politics I have witnessed in my lifetime" and every single partisan in the country will agree with that sentiment for completely different reasons.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
As for 1), not quite. His lawyer submitted a statement, signed by Judge, that had the latter's resonses on itit - but written by the lawyer. That is not the same as giving direct replies to questions under oath. What is he trying to hide anyway? It seems to me that any fair impartial observer would agree that he should be questioned directly (which is finally happening).

Ok. I suspect the FBI investigation will take care of that.

Now if he was given the same options afforded to Ford, that of being a none public questioning then I don't see what his objections might be.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Anyway, who here, being presented of information of Kavanaugh's innocence, would support him? Yeah, probably not many, because muh Republican. To me, he's innocent until proven otherwise and I'm not worried about the partisan angle because it's like saying, "Oh, we've appointed our party picks before and now we're mad that you did." It's hypocritical -- as if a Democratic President is ever going to nominate a Republican 99% of the time. It's your party's job to win that Presidential race to get their picks; this just mounts to whining after the defeat which is nothing that I respect. I think the FBI investigations are a huge waste of time because they'll not change the vote.
Couple of things here. First, he isn't on trial. This is a job interview. Second, the Democrats tried to appoint their nomination for well over a year. But the Republicans obstructed due process, on purpose. This undermines the process at its most basic level and a dangerous precedent was set. And, finally, the investigation can have an impact and it is certainly possible it can change votes.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
Eh, he's a dick.
A dick who was crying over calendars, I might add.
That according to him, his dad read to him when he was 14 years old.
It's not like the his dad was dead or anything either, he was right behind him when this happened.
What a weirdo, lol.

I'll say no.

On a more serious note, he's lied under oath, and refused an investigation.
That's not usually something that innocent people do.
And the calendar thing was pretty weird.

Yes weird and absurd. "hey look, I could not have assaulted Dr. Ford because my calendar does not say anything about it." What?!?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You left out the fact he LIED Under Oath -- about multiple things -- before a Senate Investigation.

That is illegal. If we can vote to impeach a SITTING president because of such a lie?

We can CERTAINLY not put in a proven liar for Supreme Court.

But, are any of these 'lies' important? :D You act as if there is no qualitative component. If the lie was simply mis-recollection or whatever it's not terribly relevant. If the lie is just his personal opinion being mistaken also not relevant nor perjury. Perjury is basically intentional, if it's someone mistaken comments it's not perjury. :D

I find it amusing because everyone seemed to be OK that Obama had been smoking pot and doing cocaine and no one cared. Well, I don't care either way -- whether it's Obama or Kavanaugh. Don't let your head explode. :D It has nothing to do with what's going on in the job, or as a judge he'd have already run afoul. I could care less if he was pissed every day after work -- I'd probably feel sorry for him, but as long as he's not drinking at the job what does it matter.

Anyway, Kavanaugh has no duty to prove his innocence that's presumed. They have to prove the offense. It didn't happen as far as I am concerned, and I've already listed my reasons. It would take like some _actual_ evidence for me to be convinced. Her testimony has more holes than a wheel of swiss cheese.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Couple of things here. First, he isn't on trial. This is a job interview. Second, the Democrats tried to appoint their nomination for well over a year. But the Republicans obstructed due process, on purpose. This undermines the process at its most basic level and a dangerous precedent was set. And, finally, the investigation can have an impact and it is certainly possible it can change votes.

And they're allowed to obstruct them... :D

The nomination is basically nothing more than a recommendation, after all. It's up to the Senate to have the final say, so to get your guy in: a) control President, b) control Senate, c) make a compelling argument, or get the frack out. :D

So a President can appoint whoever he wants and the Senate can reject them all.

My understanding is the only reason that there is even an investigation is the Republicans are worried about their own swing votes. The Dems are just block voting against Kavanaugh, and announced that before the hearing even began.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
On another thread the venerable @Revoltingest asked the venerable question as to whether anyone has changed his/her mind about confirmation of judge Kavanaugh due to the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing. I wanted to address the question under separate cover here in order to not mix the topics too much.

I did not oppose Kavanaugh's confirmation prior to the hearing, having read a couple dozen of his opinions and unsurprisingly finding nothing terribly objectionable in them, even though I vehemently disagree with a significant percentage of them. I don't like that he has premised some of his opinions on extra-Constitutional principals rather than case law.

My reconsideration about confirming him has less to do with Dr. Ford's testimony at the hearing than his testimony and behavior. I believe Ford, I do not believe she has mistaken Kavanaugh for someone else (she apparently named Kavanaugh in this assault years ago, and knew he and Mark Judge were drinking buddies in high school; there is no rational reason to conclude that she has mistaken Kavanaugh for someone else). Of great importance in assessing her credibility, I cannot discern that she has any incentive to lie or be deceptive on this matter. Indeed, she has everything to lose and nothing to gain by coming forward with her allegations. I am well aware of cases where a woman has lied about a sexual assault, even to the point that charges were brought. In those cases, the woman had great incentive to fabricate such allegations, and, further, had a history of large deceptions or very odd behavior. Ford does not resemble any of that, as far as I know.

In contrast, Kavanaugh has overwhelming incentive to deny all allegations of sexual misconduct, including possibly being subject to felony charges and impeachment from the bench.

The following points are some of the reasons I oppose Kavanaugh's confirmation at least as of today.

(1) As of right now, Trump and the Republican majority on the Senate Judiciary Committee have prevented the public and the rest of the Senate from having the information necessary to assess Kavanaugh's credibility in his testimony at the hearing on Thursday. For instance, we do not have sworn statements from Mark Judge clarifying his submitted letter. Judge should have testified at the hearing. The Committee should have secured sworn statements from other implicated persons. Reputable media report and quote multiple sources who contradict Kavanaugh's claims about his alcohol consumption in college. These reports, if true, impeach Kavanaugh's testimony, and we need such information in order to assess Kavanaugh's credibility.

The FBI investigation currently occurring may resolve all questions about his credibility, but unless and until that happens, Kavanaugh should not be confirmed.

(2) Several of Kavanaugh's statements in his testimony were apparently false or deceptive. For instance, his claims about the "drinking age" in Maryland when he was a senior in high school were evidently false--the minimum age to purchase alcohol in Maryland was raised to 21 at the end of his junior year when he was 17. Obviously this cannot be assumed to be a mere mistake about when a law was changed, as he knew he didn't walk into store and purchase beer in high school. To intentionally misrepresent under oath one's past illegal behavior is emphatically inappropriate for a Supreme Court Justice. Therefore he should not be confirmed.

(3) Kavanaugh's claims in his opening statement about the hearing being the product of a grand well-funded conspiracy involving "revenge on behalf of the Clintons" were baseless and outlandish, far beneath the dignity of the office he is seeking. I have never known any sitting judge make such comments publicly, much less under oath, much less while seeking a higher position. Justice Roberts has repeatedly assured us that the robes the members of the Court wear are black, not red or blue. And while that is not always strictly true, it is a praiseworthy and necessary goal. Kavanaugh has demonstrated the color of his robe is indelibly red, tinged with strange shades of paranoia. It doesn't belong on the Court.

(4) Kavanaugh's opposition to an FBI investigation in order to assess his and his accusers' credibility only raises suspicion about his credibility. A nominee who is unwilling to request an investigation necessary to determine credibility should not be confirmed.

(5) I am also concerned about what is in the many documents relating to Kavanaugh that the Committee is hiding.

So I say naw to Kavanaugh.

Other arguments for and against his confirmation are encouraged.


(Just to try to head off a couple of tactics commonly encountered in such discussion: No accuser is on trial, and accusations against a nominee to the Court need not meet the standard of a criminal case. And in case Lindsay Graham is reading this, it will not ruin Kavanaugh's life for him to remain in his current position on the Circuit Court. Lots of beer-loving sexual predators would love such a job.)

All very interesting. But to answer the question, I have wavered back and forth several times. He may have done it, he may have not. It's been a long time, and eyewitness accounts are demonstrably some of the worst evidence, contrary to popular belief. I don't doubt she had such an experience happen to her, though. she is sincere, I just worry about lack of good corroboration as to who it was.
Now, if he can be shown to be lying, that is a different story, even if he is merely lying about his drinking habits, etc. in school. Lying to the Senate Committee is a separate offence.
I'll wait and see what the FBI digs up, if anything, even though the Whitehouse limited the time and scope of the investigation. In the end, it does not matter what any of us think, only whether the Republicans think they can get enough votes on the confirmation.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
And they're allowed to obstruct them... :D
I can't help but to question how agreeable you would be to this process if every single Trump nominee was rejected on the basis that he is a Republican in the same way that occurred with Obama because he was a Democrat.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I can't help but to question how agreeable you would be to this process if every single Trump nominee was rejected on the basis that he is a Republican in the same way that occurred with Obama because he was a Democrat.

Wouldn't even care, I'd expect it. If any of them were to surprise me it'd be if they voted in another parties nominee. Not holding my breath. :D I mean, you realize the Dems rejected Kavanaugh before the hearing even started? It's like they get mad for the things they do exactly then expect everyone else to play by different rules.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Wouldn't even care, I'd expect it. If any of them were to surprise me it'd be if they voted in another parties nominee. Not holding my breath. :D I mean, you realize the Dems rejected Kavanaugh before the hearing even started? It's like they get mad for the things they do exactly then expect everyone else to play by different rules.
Politics, eh? Anyway, my hope is that 45 picks someone else and Kavanaugh falls through. This isn't because he is a Repub, it is because I was turned off with the way he handled himself. I get it, it is stressful. But it is more than clear that something is up. I would prefer a clean slate and a new nominee from Trump and company. Let's give it another go with someone else. Might be my own set a wishful thinking. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
On another thread the venerable @Revoltingest asked the venerable question as to whether anyone has changed his/her mind about confirmation of judge Kavanaugh due to the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing. I wanted to address the question under separate cover here in order to not mix the topics too much.

I did not oppose Kavanaugh's confirmation prior to the hearing, having read a couple dozen of his opinions and unsurprisingly finding nothing terribly objectionable in them, even though I vehemently disagree with a significant percentage of them. I don't like that he has premised some of his opinions on extra-Constitutional principals rather than case law.

My reconsideration about confirming him has less to do with Dr. Ford's testimony at the hearing than his testimony and behavior. I believe Ford, I do not believe she has mistaken Kavanaugh for someone else (she apparently named Kavanaugh in this assault years ago, and knew he and Mark Judge were drinking buddies in high school; there is no rational reason to conclude that she has mistaken Kavanaugh for someone else). Of great importance in assessing her credibility, I cannot discern that she has any incentive to lie or be deceptive on this matter. Indeed, she has everything to lose and nothing to gain by coming forward with her allegations. I am well aware of cases where a woman has lied about a sexual assault, even to the point that charges were brought. In those cases, the woman had great incentive to fabricate such allegations, and, further, had a history of large deceptions or very odd behavior. Ford does not resemble any of that, as far as I know.

In contrast, Kavanaugh has overwhelming incentive to deny all allegations of sexual misconduct, including possibly being subject to felony charges and impeachment from the bench.

The following points are some of the reasons I oppose Kavanaugh's confirmation at least as of today.

(1) As of right now, Trump and the Republican majority on the Senate Judiciary Committee have prevented the public and the rest of the Senate from having the information necessary to assess Kavanaugh's credibility in his testimony at the hearing on Thursday. For instance, we do not have sworn statements from Mark Judge clarifying his submitted letter. Judge should have testified at the hearing. The Committee should have secured sworn statements from other implicated persons. Reputable media report and quote multiple sources who contradict Kavanaugh's claims about his alcohol consumption in college. These reports, if true, impeach Kavanaugh's testimony, and we need such information in order to assess Kavanaugh's credibility.

The FBI investigation currently occurring may resolve all questions about his credibility, but unless and until that happens, Kavanaugh should not be confirmed.

(2) Several of Kavanaugh's statements in his testimony were apparently false or deceptive. For instance, his claims about the "drinking age" in Maryland when he was a senior in high school were evidently false--the minimum age to purchase alcohol in Maryland was raised to 21 at the end of his junior year when he was 17. Obviously this cannot be assumed to be a mere mistake about when a law was changed, as he knew he didn't walk into store and purchase beer in high school. To intentionally misrepresent under oath one's past illegal behavior is emphatically inappropriate for a Supreme Court Justice. Therefore he should not be confirmed.

(3) Kavanaugh's claims in his opening statement about the hearing being the product of a grand well-funded conspiracy involving "revenge on behalf of the Clintons" were baseless and outlandish, far beneath the dignity of the office he is seeking. I have never known any sitting judge make such comments publicly, much less under oath, much less while seeking a higher position. Justice Roberts has repeatedly assured us that the robes the members of the Court wear are black, not red or blue. And while that is not always strictly true, it is a praiseworthy and necessary goal. Kavanaugh has demonstrated the color of his robe is indelibly red, tinged with strange shades of paranoia. It doesn't belong on the Court.

(4) Kavanaugh's opposition to an FBI investigation in order to assess his and his accusers' credibility only raises suspicion about his credibility. A nominee who is unwilling to request an investigation necessary to determine credibility should not be confirmed.

(5) I am also concerned about what is in the many documents relating to Kavanaugh that the Committee is hiding.

So I say naw to Kavanaugh.

Other arguments for and against his confirmation are encouraged.


(Just to try to head off a couple of tactics commonly encountered in such discussion: No accuser is on trial, and accusations against a nominee to the Court need not meet the standard of a criminal case. And in case Lindsay Graham is reading this, it will not ruin Kavanaugh's life for him to remain in his current position on the Circuit Court. Lots of beer-loving sexual predators would love such a job.)


On the drinking while 18 issue. He could legally buy alcohol at 18, at least not far from Georgetown where he studied after he graduate high school. The drinking age was 21 in Maryland at that time, but just across the border, and Bethesda is Maryland is right on the border, he could buy alcohol legally in D.C..
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Politics, eh? Anyway, my hope is that 45 picks someone else and Kavanaugh falls through. This isn't because he is a Repub, it is because I was turned off with the way he handled himself. I get it, it is stressful. But it is more than clear that something is up. I would prefer a clean slate and a new nominee from Trump and company. Let's give it another go with someone else. Might be my own set a wishful thinking. :)

Admittedly, I'm giving him some slack because I probably wouldn't handle a literal torrent of false accusations nearly as well. He let some of it slip out, but let's be honest it's emotionally grating. If they find proof he's done anything to Ford, my position would change instantly against him. For me, it's literally this -- he's a very experienced judge, and we're talking about his job. I think most people can agree he was a decent judge, so the question of whether he can perform is likely never in question. If that's what the hearing is about he should be appointed, but if he's involved with crimes he has no business in any seat.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Admittedly, I'm giving him some slack because I probably wouldn't handle a literal torrent of false accusations nearly as well. He let some of it slip out, but let's be honest it's emotionally grating. If they find proof he's done anything to Ford, my position would change instantly against him. For me, it's literally this -- he's a very experienced judge, and we're talking about his job. I think most people can agree he was a decent judge, so the question of whether he can perform is likely never in question. If that's what the hearing is about he should be appointed, but if he's involved with crimes he has no business in any seat.
Agreed!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Let's give it another go with someone else. Might be my own set a wishful thinking. :)
It's a crap shoot.
The next pick could be better.....or even worse.
Whatever will happen will do so independently of whatever you & I want.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
And in case Lindsay Graham is reading this, it will not ruin Kavanaugh's life for him to remain in his current position on the Circuit Court.

Have you not thought that statement through, or are you being disingenuous??

If there is enough evidence to show Kavanaugh is guilty of this crime that would disqualify him from a position of power, why wouldn't that also disqualify him for his current, slightly lesser position of power??

If he is found innocent, he'll get the new position. If he is found guilty enough to not qualify for the Supreme Court, then every single person who honestly believes he is guilty would and should logically not stand for him being in the Circuit Court either.

How can one argue that an accused attempted rapist should not be allowed to sit the supreme court but should be allowed to hold a different high ranking judge position?? How could anyone who believes he tried to rape a woman be content with giving him such a high position??

How can anyone think this only threatens his appointment but not his current job as well?? (unless one believes the claim doesn't hold merit, and that it is just to keep him off the highest court position)
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm in favor of Kavanaugh getting voted through because it seems there are only minor questions about his application of Constitutional principles to his court cases and no terrible opinions or methodological considerations to how he reaches his opinions.

The accusations are so far meaningless. There is not a bit of corroborating evidence for any of the ever increasingly outrageous attacks against Kavanaugh. Ford's, the least outright offensive of those, is entirely lacking credibility, no when, no where, no details of any sort surrounding the supposed attack, and the only thing she is sure of, and she is 100% sure of that, is that Kavanaugh and Judge attacked her. No one, including her friends, that she claims were at this event will support her even in that a party where both her and Kavanaugh were present ever happened and have testified to that under threat of felony perjury.

I "liked" Kavanaugh's testimony, he both conveyed the righteous indignation of the wrongfully accused, especially of heinous crimes against humanity, and was more even tempered and controlled than I would have been in the face of such an assault fueled nearly entirely by partisan ****ery.

It seems to me that any fair impartial observer would agree that he should be questioned directly
No one should have to subject themselves to what happened to Kavanaugh last Thursday. We should have brought in an admitted addict to tear apart his life, ask him how much he drank in high school, if Kavanaugh ever "ralphed" in his car, what "boofing" is, and if Kavanaugh rode the town bike? Come on.

That was an embarrassment. The only reason anyone wanted to bring him in is to get a T.V. recorded statement of him saying he drank so much and there are nights that he can't remember, in order to impugn by association Kavanaugh.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
I'm in favor of Kavanaugh getting voted through because it seems there are only minor questions about his application of Constitutional principles to his court cases and no terrible opinions or methodological considerations to how he reaches his opinions.

The accusations are so far meaningless. There is not a bit of corroborating evidence for any of the ever increasingly outrageous attacks against Kavanaugh. Ford's, the least outright offensive of those, is entirely lacking credibility, no when, no where, no details of any sort surrounding the supposed attack, and the only thing she is sure of, and she is 100% sure of that, is that Kavanaugh and Judge attacked her. No one, including her friends, that she claims were at this event will support her even in that a party where both her and Kavanaugh were present ever happened and have testified to that under threat of felony perjury.

I "liked" Kavanaugh's testimony, he both conveyed the righteous indignation of the wrongfully accused, especially of heinous crimes against humanity, and was more even tempered and controlled than I would have been in the face of such an assault fueled nearly entirely by partisan ****ery.


No one should have to subject themselves to what happened to Kavanaugh last Thursday. We should have brought in an admitted addict to tear apart his life, ask him how much he drank in high school, if Kavanaugh ever "ralphed" in his car, what "boofing" is, and if Kavanaugh rode the town bike? Come on.

That was an embarrassment. The only reason anyone wanted to bring him in is to get a T.V. recorded statement of him saying he drank so much and there are nights that he can't remember, in order to impugn by association Kavanaugh.

Hello. Yeah I think a private questioning, oh I dunno maybe by the FBI, would have sufficed.
 
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