reasons given for religious belief

[charles brough]

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

There are others, but these perhaps play the most central role. If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part? If you are instead a non-theist, how would you counter these three reasons?

 

[Tarheeler]

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

There are others, but these perhaps play the most central role. If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part? If you are instead a non-theist, how would you counter these three reasons?

I believe, but none of the reason you've listed play any part of it. I don't deny science, I believe that life has purpose regardless of faith, and I think that anyone who claims faith is a requirement for morality is wrong.

I have faith because I have had experiences that have proven to me there is a God.

 

[Draka]

I am a theist and none of the above plays a part in my reason for being such. In fact, I'd say that none of those reasons are valid reasons.

 

[`mud]

hey Charles,
I suppose the secret falls into the belief of from where "purpose" comes.
And along with those thoughts could come feelings of "will".
And of course with the belief in from where those feelings came.
~
A lot like riding in a bumber car with no steering wheel !
~
`mud

 

[idav]

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

Probably demeaning to think we came from pond scum too but I might ask what exactly is wrong with pond scum.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Makes little difference in my eyes if family gives you purpose or if it comes directly from the master of the universe. Of course everyone wants to work for the head honcho.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

That one is a scary one. We do what we are taught for our health not because the man in the sky said so.

There are others, but these perhaps play the most central role. If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part? If you are instead a non-theist, how would you counter these three reasons?

I am a fan of faith in the sense of being optimistic in hope for reasonable accomplishable things. In that sense it is a very important tool. Doesn't matter where you think this higher power comes from.

 

[Solitarius]

There are no non-believers!

If I were to say that all of us are seeking peace, love and happiness; harmony, balance and unity. Then we are all seeking God and therefore believers. As the above attributes are all qualities of God.

We may say we don't believe in God...but I have the suspicion that what we don't believe in, is the limiting ideas we have of Him, or whatever we wish to call the Ultimate Reality.

 

[Riverwolf]

As a theist, I'll not only counter these reasons, I'll explain how the facts of the matter can help on a spiritual life.

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

No, it doesn't. The fact that we are apes lets us know that we are part of nature, so that we can be humble.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Maybe there is an ultimate Purpose, but good luck trying to figure out what it is without seeing EVERY SINGLE situation and condition. Therefore, it's best to look at our own lives, see where we are vs. where we want/need to be, and use that to discover our purpose and follow it through.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

Morality has its roots in logic and cooperation, not religion. It is detrimental to the intellect, which, as it has already been established, gives us our purpose, to base our moralities blindly on books. It's better, rather, to find morality with the intellect tempered with compassion.

If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part?

None of them. There is no logical reason for my faith; just a young fool's hope.

 

[Skwim]

There are no non-believers!

If I were to say that all of us are seeking peace, love and happiness; harmony, balance and unity. Then we are all seeking God and therefore believers. As the above attributes are all qualities of God.

We may say we don't believe in God...but I have the suspicion that what we don't believe in, is the limiting ideas we have of Him, or whatever we wish to call the Ultimate Reality.

If I were to say that all of us are four-limbed, sighted, air-breathing creatures then we are all iguanas and therefore lizards, as the above attributes are all qualities of reptiles.

 

[Breathe]

Tarheeler and Draka in posts 2 and 3 respectively summed it up nice and simply.

 

[Solitarius]

If I were to say that all of us are four-limbed, sighted, air-breathing creatures then we are all iguanas and therefore lizards, as the above attributes are all qualities of reptiles.

True...but your position would be based on a misunderstanding.

 

[charles brough]

As a theist, I'll not only counter these reasons, I'll explain how the facts of the matter can help on a spiritual life.

(1) The fact that we are apes lets us know that we are part of nature, so that we can be humble.

(2) Maybe there is an ultimate Purpose, but good luck trying to figure out what it is without seeing EVERY SINGLE situation and condition. Therefore, it's best to look at our own lives, see where we are vs. where we want/need to be, and use that to discover our purpose and follow it through.

(3) Morality has its roots in logic and cooperation, not religion. It is detrimental to the intellect, which, as it has already been established, gives us our purpose, to base our moralities blindly on books. It's better, rather, to find morality with the intellect tempered with compassion.

(4) There is no logical reason for my faith; just a young fool's hope.

(1) Sounds a little like the "Earth Liberation" doctrine. The main reason the faithful hate evolution is that it humbles us as being "descendents of monkeys!" People want to believe we are superior to other animals. And, indeed we are! We did not descend from other primates but through millenia of bitter struggle, we climbed to the top. We ascended from lower forms of life to become supreme over the world. We are not to humble ourselves before Gawd but have always had total responsibility on our own shoulders.

(2) "Purpose" is an old religion word meaning what Gawd has planned for us. We have no "Purpose," but we have goals. Goals are what we humans build our ideologies around and, in our effort to achieve them, we progress.

(3) We evolved as social group primates and have social "instincts" that enabled us to exist in such groups for millions of years. "Moral systems" are only the refining of our human social nature into an agreed upon forumla or set of rules. You had the general idea . . .

(4) Unlike most everyone, I disagree with your #4. We all have to believe an ideology. Even Secular Humanism is an ideology. Dispite its claims, there exists no "inherent or self evident truths." All we believe is ideology in that it ultimately changes and becomes either more or less accurate as the generations and centuries pass.:canoe:

 

[Breathe]

The main reason the faithful hate evolution is that it humbles us as being "descendents of monkeys!"

Not all "the faithful" do. Many of the faithful love evolution.

Another reason to me is that some creationists feel that "evolutionists" make it so one cannot believe in God and evolution. Strange but true.

 

[charles brough]

Probably demeaning to think we came from pond scum too but I might ask what exactly is wrong with pond scum.

I might ask the same question. Actually, it is fascinating! It can be comprised of small single celled animals which, under certain circumstances, form into "slime mold slugs" that can travel like worms but ones that can divide in order to encircle and go around barriers. In drying ponds, they can gather into little towers on the bodies of each other. At the top, "seeds" of new cells are exposed to be picked up in the fur of passing animals and deposited in waters somewhere else!:yes:

 

[charles brough]

Not all "the faithful" do. Many of the faithful love evolution. Another reason to me is that some creationists feel that "evolutionists" make it so one cannot believe in God and evolution. Strange but true.

Yes . . . People can believe all sorts of contradictory things. Most of the main line churches are supported by seldom attending but generously supporting liberal Christians who believe Christ died for us and that the Ten Commandments are sacred, etc. But real Christians are the Baptist, Penticostal and Evangelical fundamentalists who think they take the scriptures literally and as the "word of god."
Their little church parking lots are filled on Sundays.

The Liberal Christian lives a contradiction between doctrine and science. The Bible thumpers live a mass of contradiction in the very scriptures themselves!:devil:

 

[Breathe]

So where do non-Christians fit in?

 

[Riverwolf]

(1) Sounds a little like the "Earth Liberation" doctrine. The main reason the faithful hate evolution is that it humbles us as being "descendents of monkeys!" People want to believe we are superior to other animals. And, indeed we are! We did not descend from other primates but through millenia of bitter struggle, we climbed to the top. We ascended from lower forms of life to become supreme over the world. We are not to humble ourselves before Gawd but have always had total responsibility on our own shoulders.

Humility is good, because there is happiness and peace. When it and self-esteem temper each other, you get a person who is able to be secure enough to be productive, but loving and compassionate enough to be a joy to be around, as well as having peace of mind. Arrogance (i.e., thinking that one is the best out of all; that all others are inferior; etc.) is nothing but anger; there is no peace there. Besides, arrogant people will be hard-pressed to find love from other people outside their immediate family.

Besides, humility doesn't have to be before God; humility before nature is good enough, as well as humility to people who are better than us. Thinking that we're "the best" is just illusion. After all, nature will still be here long after we're extinct, and therefore is greater than us.

(2) "Purpose" is an old religion word meaning what Gawd has planned for us. We have no "Purpose," but we have goals. Goals are what we humans build our ideologies around and, in our effort to achieve them, we progress.

Semantics.

Why are you spelling it "Gawd"?

(3) We evolved as social group primates and have social "instincts" that enabled us to exist in such groups for millions of years. "Moral systems" are only the refining of our human social nature into an agreed upon forumla or set of rules. You had the general idea . . .

I have read that part of the Republic. ^_^

(4) Unlike most everyone, I disagree with your #4. We all have to believe an ideology. Even Secular Humanism is an ideology. Dispite its claims, there exists no "inherent or self evident truths." All we believe is ideology in that it ultimately changes and becomes either more or less accurate as the generations and centuries pass.:canoe:

...how is that contrary to my #4? I simply said that I had no logical reason for my faith; just hope. I didn't say that I didn't have an ideology.

 

[Badran]

I am religious because my thinking and experiences have led me to believe in this, or embrace it.

 

[Looncall]

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

There are others, but these perhaps play the most central role. If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part? If you are instead a non-theist, how would you counter these three reasons?

You could add simple intellectual laziness. It's so easy to let some priest/rabbi/imam do your thinking for you.

 

[chinu]

One reason is that the idea of us "descending from monkeys," as the clergy likes to put it, seems demeaning and denigrating. It seems to deny our role and importance in the universe.

Another is that without faith, we are led to believe our existence is without purpose.

Without faith, we lack a moral foundation.

There are others, but these perhaps play the most central role. If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part? If you are instead a non-theist, how would you counter these three reasons?

There is one more reason and that is "Helplessness for compleate liberation " and this reason falls on very few people on this earth, and surely they get their demand one day.

"Where there is thirst -- there is water"

Rest all is like -- sheeps are walking in the same line by following who are walking on thier front. Further religious beliefs are carried by their followers or relatives like this.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Madhuri]

If you believe on faith, which if any of the above play a part?

For me one of the most important aspects of theistic religion is that it provides a purpose to life and something to work toward. When you take away an afterlife, it makes life seem so meaningless and all the things you do so unimportant. I think one very major factor contributing to happiness is when we have a goal to strive for. So what if death is the end all? What if this very short life amounts to non-existence?

I think there are atheists who find ways around this, who are convinced that their life still has purpose and meaning. But I've been there- at the edge of faith, almost falling off, and it was not a good place for me to be. It is important for me to know that this life amounts to something, not that I can just look forward to disease and death in the very near future. How pathetically pointless and depressing is that!!

There is another aspect of my particular belief that makes me someone who does not rely completely on science. There are elements of Vedic philosophy that are so real to me, so obvious based on my life experience, that are not and perhaps cannot (not sure) be explained by researchers. It proves to me that personal spiritual inquisition and investigation is important because it opens up and fulfills a part of my life that science does not and that atheism utterly lacks.