Rebirth vs Heaven and Hell

[Link]

I'd like to pursue this a bit more if you don't mind.

I know very little about Islamic beliefs, so I'll let you instruct me on that, but just taking what you are saying, it seems that you favor a system where everyone gets exactly what they deserve (in terms of rewards and punishment), no more, no less. Are sure you want that though? Do you want to receive exactly what you deserve? You might regret it. Is anyone totally good, or totally bad?

I prefer a model of God that involves a lot of caring and a big dollop of mercy. Looking at the parable of the Prodigal Son (yes, that's Christian theology) the father (a metaphor for God) rejoices over the "bad" son that repents and (gently) rebukes the "good" son who feels that he is being unfairly treated. I see it slightly differently, rather like we are all struggling in the mud, though some do better than others, and we all need help.

(Note: I'm presenting this from a theist viewpoint, though I am not a theist. Nevertheless, I think it applies to how we treat each other).

Hmm. I would say it's more we need God's grace to be good, so it's not exactly getting what we deserve. I understand there is pardon and mercy from God, but that has it's appropriate place. Usually virtues if applied everywhere universally warp and don't become virtues anymore. It becomes an extremism.

There is a proper place to exact justice and vengeance and a proper place to forgive and have mercy.

I think it's unbalanced to dismiss justice and vengeance as not virtues in anywhere shape and from. In the wrong application, they are ugly.

I think God giving everyone slack is an extreme version of mercy that is no longer virtuous.

 

[sayak83]

Hmm. I would say it's more we need God's grace to be good, so it's not exactly getting what we deserve. I understand there is pardon and mercy from God, but that has it's appropriate place. Usually virtues if applied everywhere universally warp and don't become virtues anymore. It becomes an extremism.

There is a proper place to exact justice and vengeance and a proper place to forgive and have mercy.

I think it's unbalanced to dismiss justice and vengeance as not virtues in anywhere shape and from. In the wrong application, they are ugly.

I think God giving everyone slack is an extreme version of mercy that is no longer virtuous.

Hi Link. Would it be possible to address my points more specifically? Here is the jist of the argument
1) Humans have free will (you agree here)
2) Since humans have free will, God does not have perfect foreknowledge of a human's future actions (you agree here).
3) By 1 and 2, it follows that a human, no matter how evil today, can repent and reform himself in future and God does not have the fore knowledge to discount this possibility.
4) God, because he is just, will not discount this possibility and hence, while making it so that a person surely suffers the consequences of his evil actions as long as he indulges in them..will live a door open so that he can choose better and reform himself in the future.
5) Thus whether a hellish existence is eternal or not does not depend on God but on the choices the person continues to make during his existence. In Hinduism as long as he continues to do evil, he continues to be reborn in hellish states. But when he desists, he begins an upward trajectory.
6) Your argument about an initially more evil person getting to eventually come to God does not make sense to me as When he arrives to God he has fully reformed and repented and got punished for his past actions already. Why would you want to continue to condemn and punish a person who has become wholly good? How is that justice?

 

[Link]

@sayak83, there is such a thing as giving too much chances. Giving a chance to repent is good, but that has it's limits. Like all virtues, when gone to extreme it's too much. Vengeance and justice has an appropriate place in virtue.

Also once in a firm lying nature to oneself, it can perhaps be impossible to get out of that lying corrupt state no matter how many lives are given.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think God giving everyone slack is an extreme version of mercy that is no longer virtuous.

That is why a rebirth comes in Hinduism after one has enjoyed the fruits of good deeds in heaven and suffered the fruits of bad deeds in hell.
Then the person starts with a (comparatively) clean slate (Gods have the choice and the authority to retain (not cancel) the fruits of some of the deeds of person). A person has to answer for all his deeds in some life or other. That is the law of 'karma'.