Redeeming the Akedah.

[dybmh]

Devekut? If so, I'd have never got that without the hints.



John

Good guess. I'm impressed. That was awesome.

John, it's an english word. Here's another hint:

Spoiler

It's related to niddah... one of your favorite topics. Begins with "D" DE-E----

It's a one word answer from a Jewish Context to nearly infinite questions in Torah and day to day living...

It ... DE_E__S

The ladies like it because they can de_e__ on it. It's reliable.

 

[dybmh]

Do you suggest that Abraham's devotion to God is the sole, or most important reason he is willing to offer Isaac?

One word answer... D_____

does he go through with it?

One word answer... D_____

Can he go through with it?

One word answer... Jewish Thinkers... would say "[That] d_____"

Can God command it with the intention that Abraham goes through with it?

D______

Can God bless Abraham for murdering his son so long as the murder is labeled a "sacrifice"?

D_______

 

[John D. Brey]

Didn't you tell me just a moment ago, you've studied Jewish thought for decades, and you don't know? You don't know the answer to your question?

Any question on the form of "if God told you to ... What would you do?" has the same answer according to Jewish thought. One word, starts with. "D".

This is interesting to me in that it shows the truth of Sartre's pointing out that we tend to find things we're looking for. Our personal context/prism is what's important to our studies.

The word "devekut" ---in the sense of "devotion," or "love," even of a high degree, isn't really in my vocabulary even though I've probably read many times that it's a reason for Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac. "Devekut" is likely to be a very familiar concept to Jews, it's in their vocabulary, so that it's easy for Jews to think of it as part and parcel of why Abraham is willing to sacrifice Isaac.

Nevertheless, for me, in my context, "devekut," is somewhat tautological, where tautologies are considered, for me, the most worthless and phoney things in serious discussions or studies. I find the use of "devekut" tautological, redundant, and somewhat meaningless, since to say Abraham is devoted to, or loves God, no matter how high the order of that devotion or love, doesn't give us a clue why, or how, Abraham develops that love, or why he thinks God is worthy of that devotion and love, except as an exercise in religious genuflecture, or as an example of the worthiest of servantude mentality: He's God so I strive to love and obey for that reason and that reason alone.

Consequently, I don't think what the Shelah HaKaddosh is claiming about Abraham's intense desire to offer Isaac is related, primarily, to devekut. I think the Shelah HaKaddosh is onto the same thing he's put me onto in reading his extensive exegesis of the Akedah. I think the Shelah HaKaddosh is a precursor of what I'd like to put forth in this thread.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Good guess. I'm impressed. That was awesome.

John, it's an english word. Here's another hint:

Spoiler

It's related to niddah... one of your favorite topics. Begins with "D" DE-E----

It's a one word answer from a Jewish Context to nearly infinite questions in Torah and day to day living...

It ... DE_E__S

The ladies like it because they can de_e__ on it. It's reliable.

. . . And the elderly can rely on them too if my blabbering about devekut causes them to lose their bladder.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

What's one word which from the Jewish context of Jewish thought, answers each and every question in the form of: "God says to ... What would you do?"

If the word is "depends," then that's worthy of a thread more on my mind of late than even this thread on the Akedah. Without a transcendental-signifier, everything everywhere "depends" since there's no tether, anchor, in an absolute sense, that forces everything into place.

The closest thing I can find in Judaism that qualifies as a transcendental-signifier is Jewish identity itself.



John

 

[dybmh]

If the word is "depends," then that's worthy of a thread

Beautiful. John. This is a vital lesson. You should know that I have been given permission to teach you, if you want. I have a letter from the Rebbe, and a face to face meeting with one his senior, closest emissaries a little over a month ago. That's a significant change.

Open door policy. Send me a message or tag me on a thread if you are wanting my input, feedback, etc.. Otherwise, I think, this one, very important lesson should be given space to breathe.

God bless,

 

[dybmh]

everything everywhere "depends" since there's no tether

Wait.

Is that what a Jewish person would say? There is no tether? What does it depend on, John?

 

[John D. Brey]

Beautiful. John. This is a vital lesson. You should know that I have been given permission to teach you, if you want. I have a letter from the Rebbe, and a face to face meeting with one his senior, closest emissaries a little over a month ago. That's a significant change.

What was the previous situation such that you didn't have permission? And how did the change come about?



John

 

[dybmh]

What was the previous situation such that you didn't have permission?

SOP, bro. Standard Operating Procedure.

And how did the change come about?

Time. Sooner or later, we would be permitted, by the grace of God, to share our secrets. That time has come.

 

[Alien826]

Good guess. I'm impressed. That was awesome.

John, it's an english word. Here's another hint:

Spoiler

It's related to niddah... one of your favorite topics. Begins with "D" DE-E----

It's a one word answer from a Jewish Context to nearly infinite questions in Torah and day to day living...

It ... DE_E__S

The ladies like it because they can de_e__ on it. It's reliable.

Wow, great guessing game! My first attempt was "Don't" but then I realized that's two words. Then "defecate" as in an extreme reaction to fear. I liked that but it seemed too frivolous for a serious discussion. I did think John had it with "devekut" which I took to mean "pray" (like ask God if he really meant whatever it was), but no.

Incidentally, I do wonder about this passage. Just taking the Bible version, it seems that Abraham was perfectly OK with the sacrifice, though he took steps to hide it from the servants and even Isaac up to the last minute. So the idea of a test of obedience seems to fit, in particular as taking a reasoned guess that God didn't really mean it would invalidate the test. So it leaves me wondering why God would command something so obviously contrary to his other commands.

I would be interested in knowing what is the Jewish thinking on it. I've considered running it past a friendly Rabbi of my acquaintance, but I don't want to bother him. Do you have a link that could help?

 

[dybmh]

Wow, great guessing game! My first attempt was "Don't" but then I realized that's two words. Then "defecate" as in an extreme reaction to fear. I liked that but it seemed too frivolous for a serious discussion. I did think John had it with "devekut" which I took to mean "pray" (like ask God if he really meant whatever it was), but no.

Did you find a literal translation for devekut? It's a great guess, coming from John.

Incidentally, I do wonder about this passage. Just taking the Bible version, it seems that Abraham was perfectly OK with the sacrifice, though he took steps to hide it from the servants and even Isaac up to the last minute. So the idea of a test of obedience seems to fit, in particular as taking a reasoned guess that God didn't really mean it would invalidate the test. So it leaves me wondering why God would command something so obviously contrary to his other commands.

Hmmmm.

"it seems that Abraham was perfectly OK with the sacrifice" <--- I disagree.

"So the idea of a test of obedience seems to fit" <---- maybe there's more to this test?

"why God would command something so obviously contrary to his other commands" <------ DING-DING-DING WINNER

 

[dybmh]

I would be interested in knowing what is the Jewish thinking on it

When was the last time you read the story?

 

[dybmh]

Do you have a link that could help?

Do you have access to the Hebrew bible? First book? I think the story of Abraham begins in chapter 11? What's the first verse? In Hebrew it's Lech-lechah....

 

[Alien826]

Did you find a literal translation for devekut? It's a great guess, coming from John.

Edited to add: I think so. It seems to be closer to meditation than prayer.

Hmmmm.

"it seems that Abraham was perfectly OK with the sacrifice" <--- I disagree.

He didn't to question God or show any hesitation.

"So the idea of a test of obedience seems to fit" <---- maybe there's more to this test?

Maybe.

"why God would command something so obviously contrary to his other commands" <------ DING-DING-DING WINNER

That's the question., yes.

When was the last time you read the story?

Just before I posted, to check my recollection.

Do you have access to the Hebrew bible? First book? I think the story of Abraham begins in chapter 11? What's the first verse? In Hebrew it's Lech-lechah....

I found one on line. It's Bere**** (Genesis) chapter 23. The English translation seems to be the same as the Bible. There's a commentary by Rashi (?). It does say this "Abraham, who knew that he was going to slaughter his son, was going as willingly and joyfully as Isaac, who was unaware of the matter".

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www.chabad.org

 

[John D. Brey]

I would be interested in knowing what is the Jewish thinking on it.

Depends.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

It's a great guess, coming from John.

. . . if man on earth had not failed and as a result become garbed in the pollutants [טפה סרוחה] emitted by the serpent . . . semen would have been an emission originating in the brain . . . [and thus the tongue would take on the role formerly served by the fleshly serpent after the latter is cut off מילה].​

​

Shelah HaKaddosh, Shney HaBerit, Torah Shebikhtav, Vaera, Torah Ohr, 39 [brackets added by me].​

John

 

[John D. Brey]

He didn't to question God or show any hesitation.

. . . Unlike Moses who refused to sacrifice Israel when God offered him the opportunity.



John

 

[dybmh]

Edited to add: I think so. It seems to be closer to meditation than prayer.

Well, maybe I'm remembering wrong. Let me check.

Nope. I was right. @John D. Brey , what's the literal meaning of devekut? Root: Dalet-Vet-Kuf?

He didn't to question God or show any hesitation.

True. I still disagree. How could this be? It's another riddle. The way to answer it is to start at the beginning of the story, catch the wave, so to speak, then ride the wave into Chapter 22.

Jewish thinking is like riding a wave, or, more often it's described traditionally as weathering a storm. Notice, though, it is not static. It's active. Jewish thought is not a "what", it's a "how". And that is why it's so difficult to capture it without engaging in a conversation. Preferably a conversation which begins with a provocative question, a riddle, or... something funny, like a joke. John knows.

That's the question., yes.

The answer is embedded in your question.

Just before I posted, to check my recollection.

Awesome. Would you please quote the text from the translation you're using beginning with the arrival at the mountain and ending with Abraham and Isaac's very brief interlude on their trek up?

I found one on line. It's Bere**** (Genesis) chapter 23.

That's not the beginning of the story of Abraham. I think this is possibly the beginning of the reason you're not able to answer your own questions. The goal, the purpose of Jewish Thought ( the on-going method ) is to train the Jewish Thinker to be able to answer their own questions. That is not possible unless the individual starts at the beginning.

Sorry. It was chapter 12, not 11. That's the beginning of the story of Abraham.

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www.chabad.org

it seems that Abraham was ...

Woah. In order to discern / derive Abraham's state of mind-and-heart, just like anyone, we need to "walk a mile in their shoes". This is, in general, a 2 step process. Step 1: Put yourself in the story in that time and place. Step 2: Get into character. Become Abraham. Then, evaluate his disposition.

Ready........ GO!

( In order to to this properly, research is needed. That's why we need to start at the beginning, chapter 12. It sets the scene beautifully. )

 

[dybmh]

I would be interested in knowing what is the Jewish thinking on it.

Depends.

Well...... The man isn't asking a question, here. So, that answer doesn't fit, at all. It's not a universal answer. It's useful, but not all encompassing.

I love the enthusiasm. I agree. It's fun to try out a new tool.

 

[Alien826]

Well, maybe I'm remembering wrong. Let me check.

Nope. I was right. @John D. Brey , what's the literal meaning of devekut? Root: Dalet-Vet-Kuf?

From Wiki ... I'm not saying it's accurate but it's where I got the "meditation" from.

Devekut, debekuth, deveikuth or deveikus (דבקות; traditionally "clinging on" to God) is a Jewish concept referring to closeness to God. It may refer to a deep, trance-like meditative state attained during Jewish prayer, Torah study, or when performing the 613 commandments. It is particularly associated with the Jewish mystical tradition.

True. I still disagree. How could this be? It's another riddle. The way to answer it is to start at the beginning of the story, catch the wave, so to speak, then ride the wave into Chapter 22.

Jewish thinking is like riding a wave, or, more often it's described traditionally as weathering a storm. Notice, though, it is not static. It's active. Jewish thought is not a "what", it's a "how". And that is why it's so difficult to capture it without engaging in a conversation. Preferably a conversation which begins with a provocative question, a riddle, or... something funny, like a joke. John knows.

Wipe out!!

The answer is embedded in your question.



Awesome. Would you please quote the text from the translation you're using beginning with the arrival at the mountain and ending with Abraham and Isaac's very brief interlude on their trek up?

Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy[a] will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

That's not the beginning of the story of Abraham. I think this is possibly the beginning of the reason you're not able to answer your own questions. The goal, the purpose of Jewish Thought ( the on-going method ) is to train the Jewish Thinker to be able to answer their own questions. That is not possible unless the individual starts at the beginning.

Sorry. It was chapter 12, not 11. That's the beginning of the story of Abraham.

Loading…

www.chabad.org

Woah. In order to discern / derive Abraham's state of mind-and-heart, just like anyone, we need to "walk a mile in their shoes". This is, in general, a 2 step process. Step 1: Put yourself in the story in that time and place. Step 2: Get into character. Become Abraham. Then, evaluate his disposition.

Ready........ GO!

( In order to to this properly, research is needed. That's why we need to start at the beginning, chapter 12. It sets the scene beautifully. )

Well, I read everything from chapter 12 onward (not sure if that was what you wanted). Quite a story certainly. No great revelation though.