Redeeming the Akedah.

[dybmh]

(דבקות; traditionally "clinging on" to God)

"Clinging" is closer to the literal meaning. Hopefully John will chime in.

Wipe out!!

I got you... buddy.

If it gets really rough, I know what to do. Don't worry.

Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy[a] will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

Excellent. There's a key detail in the first line quoted. There's another in the answer provided by Abraham.

"Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.”​

​

In addition to Abraham telling us, the reader, that Isaac is not going to be killed, please keep in mind: Step 1: Put yourself in the story. Who is present when this is spoken? Who is hearing it? Moving on...

"God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”​

​

Will provide, future tense.

it seems that Abraham was perfectly OK with the sacrifice

What sacrifice? According to what is written above, what was Abraham's disposition? Who did Abraham think he was going to sacrifice? Or better yet, from the counter-intuitive:

Whom was Abraham certain he was NOT going to sacrifice? " we will return to you..." "God will provide ... "

Let's look back in the story for a moment? Do you know the story of how Abraham was named?

​

And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.​

​

And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."​

​

And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.​

Do you see it? Repetition. These stories are like a song. Catching the "wave" is like hearing the melody and the chorus which is repeating. Christians have a different song which they are singing. It's "Jesus/Satan" repeated over, and over, and over. That's not Jewish. But, for the Christian, they have a very difficult time setting that aside, listening to the melody, and hearing the chorus. That's because the "Jesus/Satan" song is playing at the same time. They're doing their own thing. I digress. Sorry.

OK.

So the idea of a test of obedience seems to fit

What is the test? Let's read the "test", together, carefully.

​

1And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, "Abraham," and he said, "Here I am."​

​

אוַיְהִ֗י אַחַר֙ הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֔לֶּה וְהָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים נִסָּ֖ה אֶת־אַבְרָהָ֑ם וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלָ֔יו אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּ֥אמֶר הִנֵּֽנִי:​

​

2And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."​

​

בוַיֹּ֡אמֶר קַח־נָ֠א אֶת־בִּנְךָ֨ אֶת־יְחִֽידְךָ֤ אֲשֶׁר־אָהַ֨בְתָּ֙ אֶת־יִצְחָ֔ק וְלֶ֨ךְ־לְךָ֔ אֶל־אֶ֖רֶץ הַמֹּֽרִיָּ֑ה וְהַֽעֲלֵ֤הוּ שָׁם֙ לְעֹלָ֔ה עַ֚ל אַחַ֣ד הֶֽהָרִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֖ר אֹמַ֥ר אֵלֶֽיךָ​

This part gets a little tricky, because I know you don't know Hebrew, but, there's a repetition here. Understand, in my community, we read this story every day. In the morning. Abraham rose early... so do we. Anyway. If it's read in Hebrew, it's clear, for those of us paying attention, there's emphasis placed on "your ONLY son".

OK. Now. If you're father Abraham, and God told you, "Please. Take your ONLY son and bring him up there... for an offering." And you believe in one and only one God, what is crossing your mind? I know what's crossing though my mind.

if God told you to offer your own son would you?

Well, that depends... ( Depends on what? ) It depends on ... drumroll ... What else did God say?

Is that ALL God said? Offer your own son? What were God's exact words? Did you write it down? Let's think about this, John. Think. We've got these big beautiful brains for a reason, buddy. What else did God say?

why God would command something so obviously contrary to his other commands.

Ding-ding-ding. Winner. You're doing exactly what I would do. What else did God say? That's the right answer, from a Jewish Thinker's perspective. Well done, sir. Well done.

Now. I want to let this settle, and give you an opportunity to ask questions. Then, after that, or if there are none, I'll bring this ship home. Virtual-beers are on me. I know this grubby spot just off the pier. They'll let us sing into the wee morning hours.

 

[John D. Brey]

"Clinging" is closer to the literal meaning. Hopefully John will chime in.

I've got nothing to add to the lexicons (Gesenius, and Klein) that say it means to "cleave" or be "glued" to something. Genesis 2:24 is, I think, its first use in the Tanakh: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave דבק unto his wife."

. . . I almost left out the most important part: "And they shall be one flesh." As a result of the cleaving.




John

 

[dybmh]

that say it means to "cleave"

That's it! Cleaving how?

Genesis 2:24 is, I think, it's first use in the Tanakh: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave דבק unto his wife."

Yes. Cleaving like a husband cleaves to his wife. And the next verse begins: "and they were naked... And they were not ashamed."

"Seven! Seven! Seven! ... ". They were not ashamed.

I think it's truly awesome you chose "cleaving" at the beginning of the thread. It's no different than your other predispositions. There's nothing wrong with it. It's perfectly natural and beautiful. They were not ashamed, you don't need to be ashamed either.

 

[John D. Brey]

Yes. Cleaving like a husband cleaves to his wife. And the next verse begins: "and they were naked... And they were not ashamed."

I think it's truly awesome you chose "cleaving" at the beginning of the thread. It's no different than your other predispositions. There's nothing wrong with it. It's perfectly natural and beautiful. They were not ashamed, you don't need to be ashamed either.

. . . It's impossible for me to connect "cleaving" to Captain and Tennille being naked and not be utterly ashamed if not completely weirded out.



John

 

[dybmh]

. . . It's impossible for me to connect "cleaving" to Captain and Tennille being naked and not be utterly ashamed if not completely weirded out

Did you not start this thread with "a drop of semen", John?



Bro, Are you or are you not Wolfson's biggest fan?

 

[Alien826]

Interesting word, that has two totally opposite meanings ...

cleave /klēv/

intransitive verb​

1. To adhere, cling, or stick fast.
2. To be faithful.
   "cleave to one's principles."
3. To split with a sharp instrument. synonym: tear.
   Similar: tear

 

[dybmh]

Interesting word, that has two totally opposite meanings ...

cleave /klēv/

intransitive verb​

1. To adhere, cling, or stick fast.
2. To be faithful.
   "cleave to one's principles."
3. To split with a sharp instrument. synonym: tear.
   Similar: tear

I don't think it works exactly that way in Hebrew.

I suppose I could do a word study on it if you're interested. Not sure when, but, now I'm curious too.

 

[Alien826]

There seems to be a difference in translation which is critical to the meaning. This is what I get from Bible Gateway.

Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

The use of the words "sacrifice Him" don't appear in your quotations. Then, later on we get

When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

which seems to support the idea of sacrifice. He actually started doing it!

So what does the Hebrew say? Does the Bible translation get it wrong? It seems to me that it would have to completely omit the second passage.

Excellent. There's a key detail in the first line quoted. There's another in the answer provided by Abraham.

"Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.”​

​

In addition to Abraham telling us, the reader, that Isaac is not going to be killed, please keep in mind: Step 1: Put yourself in the story. Who is present when this is spoken? Who is hearing it? Moving on...

"God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”​

​

Will provide, future tense.

I get it, that suggests the Abraham never intended to sacrifice Isaac. BUT, if the passages I quoted are correct, it seems he did, and what he was doing, maybe, was simply obscuring his intention from the servants (who might intervene) and from his son (who might run away?).

What sacrifice? According to what is written above, what was Abraham's disposition? Who did Abraham think he was going to sacrifice? Or better yet, from the counter-intuitive:

Whom was Abraham certain he was NOT going to sacrifice? " we will return to you..." "God will provide ... "

Let's look back in the story for a moment? Do you know the story of how Abraham was named?

​

And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.​

​

And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."​

​

And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.​

This is a very good argument to support the idea that God never intended to have Isaac sacrificed. And as we know that is correct. Added to that all the previous promises to Abraham would explain why he (Abraham) didn't seem too bothered by it all. I would have expected him to at least protest.

Do you see it? Repetition. These stories are like a song. Catching the "wave" is like hearing the melody and the chorus which is repeating. Christians have a different song which they are singing. It's "Jesus/Satan" repeated over, and over, and over. That's not Jewish. But, for the Christian, they have a very difficult time setting that aside, listening to the melody, and hearing the chorus. That's because the "Jesus/Satan" song is playing at the same time. They're doing their own thing. I digress. Sorry.

Yes, I see what you are getting at.

What is the test? Let's read the "test", together, carefully.

​

1And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, "Abraham," and he said, "Here I am."​

​

אוַיְהִ֗י אַחַר֙ הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֔לֶּה וְהָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים נִסָּ֖ה אֶת־אַבְרָהָ֑ם וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלָ֔יו אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּ֥אמֶר הִנֵּֽנִי:​

​

2And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."​

​

בוַיֹּ֡אמֶר קַח־נָ֠א אֶת־בִּנְךָ֨ אֶת־יְחִֽידְךָ֤ אֲשֶׁר־אָהַ֨בְתָּ֙ אֶת־יִצְחָ֔ק וְלֶ֨ךְ־לְךָ֔ אֶל־אֶ֖רֶץ הַמֹּֽרִיָּ֑ה וְהַֽעֲלֵ֤הוּ שָׁם֙ לְעֹלָ֔ה עַ֚ל אַחַ֣ד הֶֽהָרִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֖ר אֹמַ֥ר אֵלֶֽיךָ​

This part gets a little tricky, because I know you don't know Hebrew, but, there's a repetition here. Understand, in my community, we read this story every day. In the morning. Abraham rose early... so do we. Anyway. If it's read in Hebrew, it's clear, for those of us paying attention, there's emphasis placed on "your ONLY son".

OK. Now. If you're father Abraham, and God told you, "Please. Take your ONLY son and bring him up there... for an offering." And you believe in one and only one God, what is crossing your mind? I know what's crossing though my mind.

Yes. But the passages I quoted still remain, and I can't just ignore them. And then we have

Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.

and

I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

Which again plays into a test, that Abraham passed, and was rewarded for.

Ding-ding-ding. Winner. You're doing exactly what I would do. What else did God say? That's the right answer, from a Jewish Thinker's perspective. Well done, sir. Well done.

Now. I want to let this settle, and give you an opportunity to ask questions. Then, after that, or if there are none, I'll bring this ship home. Virtual-beers are on me. I know this grubby spot just off the pier. They'll let us sing into the wee morning hours.

Now that sounds fun. IPA please.

 

[dybmh]

This is what I get from Bible Gateway.

Biblehub.com has an interlinear word-for-word translation. It's far from perfect, but, it's useful for looking at translations to see if words are being added.

which seems to support the idea of sacrifice. He actually started doing it!

He did start to do it.

But that doesn't change what I wrote, right?

God promised to build a nation from Abraham. Agreed?

Abraham's progeny will eternally posses the land. Agreed?

Abraham said, in front of Isaac, the boy and I will return to you ( aleichem ). That means they're returning to that location. Agreed?

Abraham reassures Isaac, God will provide, future tense. That means Isaac is not the one who will be offered. According to Abraham. Agreed?

The most important thing, right now, is to get these details correct. Exactly what did God say? Exactly what did Abraham say?

Now, do you want to look at a word for word translation of the first verses in chapter 22?

 

[dybmh]

But the passages I quoted still remain, and I can't just ignore them

You're doing great! Don't ignore them, please!

 

[dybmh]

Which again plays into a test, that Abraham passed, and was rewarded for.

Yes, but Abraham didn't stop there. The story ( test ) continues... What happens next?

Now that sounds fun. IPA please.

IPA, Check.

I'm more feeling like a porter, myself. Maybe a heff, then a porter.

 

[Alien826]

I don't think it works exactly that way in Hebrew.

I suppose I could do a word study on it if you're interested. Not sure when, but, now I'm curious too.

There is a separate etymology for what is essentially two words.

cleave | Etymology of cleave by etymonline

"to split, part or divide by force," Old English cleofan, cleven, cliven "to split,… See origin and meaning of cleave.

www.etymonline.com

I seriously doubt that Hebrew would have two similar meanings. It would be an enormous coincidence if so.

 

[Alien826]

Biblehub.com has an interlinear word-for-word translation. It's far from perfect, but, it's useful for looking at translations to see if words are being added.

OK

He did start to do it.

But that doesn't change what I wrote, right?

God promised to build a nation from Abraham. Agreed?

Abraham's progeny will eternally posses the land. Agreed?

Yes.

Abraham said, in front of Isaac, the boy and I will return to you ( aleichem ). That means they're returning to that location. Agreed?

Abraham reassures Isaac, God will provide, future tense. That means Isaac is not the one who will be offered. According to Abraham. Agreed?

Agreed that Abraham said those things. Yet to be established is that he intended them to be true.

The most important thing, right now, is to get these details correct. Exactly what did God say? Exactly what did Abraham say?

OK.

Now, do you want to look at a word for word translation of the first verses in chapter 22?

Yes, please.

Yes, but Abraham didn't stop there. The story ( test ) continues... What happens next?

I'm not sure where you are going now. He sacrifices a ram as instructed. I have a feeling that "instead of his son" has a lot of significance. The promises are repeated, and Abraham goes home with Isaac and the young men. Then there's some stuff about children being born.

The next chapter is about Sarah's death and burial.

 

[dybmh]

Agreed that Abraham said those things. Yet to be established is that he intended them to be true.

So Abraham was maybe lying? Fair. Except....

I'm not sure where you are going now. He sacrifices a ram as instructed.

We need to read the story very carefully. That's not the way I remember it, and I know this story very well. There's an important detail which is sandwiched between "Don't do it" says the angel and Abraham taking the ram from the thicket. This detail proves Abraham was not lying. And. This detail is consistent with the melody, the song, the wave, the flow, of the story that is being told. Lech-lecha ... the first verse of Chapter 12:

And the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your land and from your birthplace and from your father's house, to the land that I will show you."

Riddle-me-this? why did God place Abram in Terah's house? If God wanted Abram to become Abraham the father of Jewish monotheism, why there, why then, why that specific person, a man who makes idols?

 

[John D. Brey]

Interesting word, that has two totally opposite meanings ...

cleave /klēv/

intransitive verb​

1. To adhere, cling, or stick fast.
2. To be faithful.
   "cleave to one's principles."
3. To split with a sharp instrument. synonym: tear.
   Similar: tear

It's interesting that Genesis 22:3 claims Isaac "claved" בקע (the root for devekut) the wood for the offering. Abraham later attaches it to Isaac. It's almost as though Isaac clings to the old rugged cross beams associated with his sacrifice as though he could exchange it some day for a crown.



John

 

[dybmh]

It's interesting that Genesis 22:3 claims Isaac "claved" בקע (the root for devekut) the wood for the offering

Awesome!!! Love-it.

 

[dybmh]

It's almost as though Isaac clings to the old rugged cross beams associated with his sacrifice as though he could exchange it some day for a crown.

Great imagery. It's like I'm watching it happen in my mind. Magnificent.

 

[John D. Brey]

Great imagery. It's like I'm watching it happen in my mind. Magnificent.

. . . As @Alien826 pointed out, there are two versions of "cleave" or "clave." In Hebrew, with a dalet ד the word means to be glued, or close, or devoted, etc., but without the dalet, i.e., as found in Genesis 22:3, the word mostly means to divide or separate. So unfortunately, interpreted properly, Genesis 22:3 is just saying Isaac divided (or split) the wood for the offering.

Maybe something of the word with the dalet rubs off on Genesis 22:3?



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Great imagery. It's like I'm watching it happen in my mind. Magnificent.

You're not likely to be familiar with the imagery I was toying with. There's a Christian hymn called The Old Rugged Cross. One stanza says, "I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown."

John

 

[dybmh]

Genesis 2:3 is just saying Isaac

Genesis 2:3... is saying something about Isaac?