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Redeeming the Akedah.

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
but without the dalet

without the dalet? What? in 2:3?

but without the dalet, i.e., as found in Genesis 2:3

Please post it. This is what I have for Genesis 2:3.

3 And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.

וַיְבָ֤רֶךְ אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶת־י֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔י וַיְקַדֵּ֖שׁ אֹת֑וֹ כִּ֣י ב֤וֹ שָׁבַת֙ מִכָּל־מְלַאכְתּ֔וֹ אֲשֶׁר־בָּרָ֥א אֱלֹהִ֖ים לַֽעֲשֽׂוֹת:
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure where you are going now. He sacrifices a ram as instructed. I have a feeling that "instead of his son" has a lot of significance.

. . . As noted in the other thread on all of this, Abraham and Isaac spoke early in the narrative of a "lamb" for the offering. But Abraham eventually offers a ram. A ram is usually a peace offering, which comes after the burnt offering, such that the Hebrew word interpreted and translated "instead of" תחת can be interpreted "in the place" (see Genesis 50:19 where the word is interpreted this way) where Isaac was offered.

The switch from lamb to ram can't be a meaningless nuance. And as I've quoted Rabbi Hirsch pointing out, it seems absurd to switch a wild ram instead of Isaac and assume the sacrifice has any genuine significance. Hirsch says that's like someone giving you a million dollars, so that you bend down and pick up a meaningless trinket laying on the ground and offer it as recompense for the gift of a million dollars.

In Isaiah Horowitz brilliant exegesis of the Akedah, the offering of Isaac is worth more to Abraham than a million dollars. To think he'd call it off and offer terefah, a wounded beast, instead, makes no sense. The ram is offered in the same place as Isaac since a peace offering comes after a burnt offering.



John
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
but without the dalet, i.e., as found in Genesis 2:3,

Screenshot_20240625_212009.jpg


JAram. and Syr. פְּקֵע (= it burst, exploded), Ugar. bq‘ (= to cleave, to split), Arab. faqa‘a (= he knocked out, it burst, exploded), baqi‘a (= differing from), ba‘aqa, ba‘aja (= it cleft, split), Ethiop. ’abaqawa (= he opened wide his mouth). cp. the related base פקע.] Derivatives: בָּקוּעַ, בִּקּוּעַ, בָּקִיעַ ᴵ, בְּקִיעַ, בְּקִיעָה, בֶּקַע ᴵ, בֶּקַע ᴵᴵ, בְּקַעַת, הַבְקָעָה, הִבָּקְעוּת, הִתְבַּקֽעוּת, מִבְקָע, מִבְקָּע.


with a dalet ד the word means to be glued, or close, or devoted,

Screenshot_20240625_212456.jpg
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
there are two versions of "cleave" or "clave." In Hebrew, with a dalet ד the word means to be glued, or close, or devoted, etc., but without the dalet

I find a great deal more significance in the final letters when contrasted. Kuf compared with ayin.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
This presentation of the meaning of the narrative is as naive as it is unconscionably absurd; it's as wrongheaded as can be. Only the most important doctrinal stumbling block could force brilliant Jewish sages, men who know the intricacies of scriptural symbolism and idiomatic matrices almost automatically, to feign stupidity in the face of perhaps the most important narrative in the entire Tanakh. They feign stupidity not because they're stupid. They're as far from that as can be. They feign stupidity since they don't have a schematic to make the narrative work in a way that doesn't transgress their understanding of God's Law. They feign stupidity because of the added nuisance and fear that a schematic that makes the Akdedah work without transgressing Jewish understanding of the Law could open a can of worms more damaging to a Jewish understandging of the Law than it is useful to understanding the Akedah.

. . . if man on earth had not failed and as a result become garbed in the pollutants emitted by the serpent, there would not have been such a thing as shame, negative aspects to the act of procreation. On the contrary, the act of procreation would have been the performance of a commandment exactly like that of putting on phylacteries and other commandments performed with one's body. The semen would have been an emission originating in the brain, and the person born as a result of such an emission would have come into the world with the same stature as Adam.​
The Shelah HaKaddosh, Shney Luchot HaBerit, Torah Shebikhtav, Vaera, Torah Ohr, 39.​

Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz's statement above lends itself to the task of piecing together a schematic that makes sense of the Akedah from the standpoint of Abraham rejoicing over the opportunity to offer Isaac. Horowitz's statement above appears to be a guarded acknowledgement of the Catholic doctrine of "original sin." Horowitz concedes that if man on earth had not failed, through the original sin, not only would his body not be garbed in sickly flesh polluted with the sin nature, but semen would come from the brain rather than through the biological sewer associated with the serpent winding his way through putrid soil.

What is genetically transmitted in the semen is human nature and, together with that nature, its sickness. The newborn child shares in the guilt of the first parent inasmuch as his nature is brought into being by a reproductive movement from that parent. . . Death has spread to the whole human race inasmuch as all have sinned.​
Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia.​

Rabbi Horwitz goes on:

. . . nowadays the origin of man is the proverbial תפה סרוחה, the "evil-smelling drop of semen" familiar to us from the saying of Rabbi Akavyah in Avot 3:1. If Adam and Eve had not allowed themselves to be seduced into sinning, all seed would have been holy seed. The whole subject of the covenant, the ברית מילה [brit milah, ritual circumcision], which is performed on the reproductive organ, is designed to reconsecrate it to G-d.​
Ibid. 29.​

The semen come through the biological sewer pipe is rightly called the "evil-smelling drop" associated with the polluted garment/flesh garbing all conceived in the newfangled manner associated with the original sin (seed, come, through the sewer pipe, instead of the brain). Rabbi Horowitz speaks of the fact that without the original sin, all seed would be holy seed. After the original sin, the seed and its means of delivery, must be "reconsecrated to G-d" through ritual circumcision (ברית מילה), which segues into Abraham's pre-Akedah reconsecration of the sexual organ (he knifes it till the reproductive flesh bleeds to death): what Adam added when the human body was cut for the first time (Genesis 2:21), Abraham ritually removes such that the letter heh cut from the title ha-adam after the descecration, is, ironically, added to Abram (Abra-h-am) after the reconsecration of the human body post brit milah.

The whole subject of the covenant, the ברית מילה [brit milah, ritual circumcision], which is performed on the reproductive organ, is designed to reconsecrate it to G-d.​
Ibid.​

The Shelah HaKaddosh claims the male organ of reproduction is "reconsecrated to G-d" by taking a knife to it, bleeding it, emasculating it. In effect, it shouldn't have been there at all. Removing it is reconstituting the human body, making it what it was before the shameful flesh was added (Genesis 2:21).

The whole subject of the covenant, the ברית מילה [brit milah, ritual circumcision], which is performed on the reproductive organ, is designed to reconsecrate it to G-d. This ברית is no less holy to G-d than the laying of the תפילין [tefillin] . . ..
Ibid. [Emphasis mine].​

In a thread here a few years ago, Tefillin, Kotek, Eureka, the head tefillin of the religious Jew was juxtaposed against the koteka worn on the newly cut male organ of the aboriginees of Papau New Guinea. In context, Horowitz has already told us that if not for the original sin, then semen would be coming from the brain rather than the biological sewer pipe where it's become putrid.

Voila! Whereas the Wogeo men (of Pauau New Guinea) intern their newly cut male organ in a "phallocrypt" (koteka) signifying its death, the Jew, as the Shelah HaKaddosh implies, inters the phallus of the brain in a similar crypt (the shel rosh, or head tefillin) in order to guard and protect it until the reconstitution or renewal of the time when holy seed will actually come, so to say, from the brain, through a sexual organ erected on the forehead, rather than through the serpentine gutter where it becomes putrid.

For the righteous Jew, the tzaddik, the wearing of the shel rosh (head tefillin) signifies, ritually, symbolically, that he's "reconsecrated" the means of reproduction (by bleeding the serpentine flesh) so that holy seed comes through the brain rather than being redirected through the serpentine flesh. For the tzaddik, the kundalini has left the testemony of the serpentine septic tank between the legs and arrived, enlightened, at the two hemispheres which alone are the exclusive home of holy seed. It's therefore fitting that the circumcised male first dons his head tefillin at the bar mitzvah that's the mitzvah associated with his sexual coming of age. In effect, his first erection, ritually speaking, is a spiritual erection, the donning of the shel rosh on his forehead.

Ever since the sin, when Adam and Eve became aware that they were naked and became ashamed on that account, and the whole rite of circumcision became connected to עריה, nakedness and shame, observance of circumcision has become much more crucial. Man's attachment to material values stems from the original sin. . . [Circumcision is thus] תקון, repair-work, performed to the damaged spiritual state of the universe.​
Ibid.​



John
 
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
. . . As noted in the other thread on all of this, Abraham and Isaac spoke early in the narrative of a "lamb" for the offering. But Abraham eventually offers a ram. A ram is usually a peace offering, which comes after the burnt offering, such that the Hebrew word interpreted and translated "instead of" תחת can be interpreted "in the place" (see Genesis 50:19 where the word is interpreted this way) where Isaac was offered.

The switch from lamb to ram can't be a meaningless nuance.

The "lamb to ram" can be explained by going back to the "Treaty at Beersheba", where Abraham "hands" Abimelek seven ewe lambs as witness that he dug the well at Beersheba. These ewe lambs become wild and fall pregnant, lambing and wandering and living across the promised land in generations. It is known that a single ram can be accepted by multiple (7) ewes, thereby creating a patrilineal dynasty for a ram in nature.
This is a metaphor for Abraham, the "wild ram", Sarai the ewes, and Isaac the lambs that are born and to be born.

When it is written God will provide the lambs, it is also referencing the many, many generations of wild lambs born to live in the promised land, symbolizing the ownership and sovereignty of this land to the ram patriarch. It is this same wild ram that has become "bound" in the thickets that Abraham is able to sacrifice to God, symbolizing his ownership and sovereignty over the land promised to him by God for Isaac.

- Sidenote: When ewes are pregnant with twins they are at risk pregnancy toxaemia, a metabolic disorder causing a significant decline in nutrition for the ewe as a direct result of the growth of the twin lambs in utero. When Rebekah is pregnant, Jacob and Esau are "jostling" for superiority, suggesting this was affecting Rebekka physically, and for her to seek the answer to "Why is this happening to me" from the Lord.


And as I've quoted Rabbi Hirsch pointing out, it seems absurd to switch a wild ram instead of Isaac and assume the sacrifice has any genuine significance. Hirsch says that's like someone giving you a million dollars, so that you bend down and pick up a meaningless trinket laying on the ground and offer it as recompense for the gift of a million dollars.

In Isaiah Horowitz brilliant exegesis of the Akedah, the offering of Isaac is worth more to Abraham than a million dollars. To think he'd call it off and offer terefah, a wounded beast, instead, makes no sense. The ram is offered in the same place as Isaac since a peace offering comes after a burnt offering.



John

The question of why Isaac is bound and placed on the altar is related to the Ashvamedha custom, whereby a horse, accompanied by warriors, is allowed to wander across territory claimed by a king. Any rival could dispute the authority of the king by challening the warriors and capturing the horse, however if one year had passed without dispute, the horse would be led back to the kings capital to be sacrificed, and the king declared sovereign over the land traversed.

In Genesis the three visitors tell Sarah she will have a son "this time next year", during which time Abraham lived between "Kadesh and Shur". When Isaac is born, he is considered to have traveresed across the promised land within Sarah. However, given Abimelek "sent for Sarah and took her" during the time Isaac could be said to have conceived, Abraham settles any potential claim to Isaac by Abimelek at the Treaty of Beersheba - "Now swear to me here before God that you will not deal falsely with me or my children or my descendants". By resolving any potential dispute, Isaac can now be considered Abraham's "sacrificial horse", bound to then be sacrificed for the owner (of father) to claim sovereignty over the land traversed.

Offerring Isaac symbolically in such a way would have made Abraham the owner of the land promised to him in the eyes of others, but defeats the inheritence of Isaac as his "one true son" and descendent. By stopping the sacrifice, God allows the destiny of Isaac to be fulfilled, providing instead a wild ram, an animal of equal symbolic value to a horse, to be sacrificed instead. A separate nation in promised by God to Ishmael, meaning the reason Abraham had to be stopped from sacrificing Isaac was because he feared God or because he knew God.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The "lamb to ram" can be explained by going back to the "Treaty at Beersheba", where Abraham "hands" Abimelek seven ewe lambs as witness that he dug the well at Beersheba. These ewe lambs become wild and fall pregnant, lambing and wandering and living across the promised land in generations. It is known that a single ram can be accepted by multiple (7) ewes, thereby creating a patrilineal dynasty for a ram in nature.
This is a metaphor for Abraham, the "wild ram", Sarai the ewes, and Isaac the lambs that are born and to be born.

When it is written God will provide the lambs, it is also referencing the many, many generations of wild lambs born to live in the promised land, symbolizing the ownership and sovereignty of this land to the ram patriarch. It is this same wild ram that has become "bound" in the thickets that Abraham is able to sacrifice to God, symbolizing his ownership and sovereignty over the land promised to him by God for Isaac.

- Sidenote: When ewes are pregnant with twins they are at risk pregnancy toxaemia, a metabolic disorder causing a significant decline in nutrition for the ewe as a direct result of the growth of the twin lambs in utero. When Rebekah is pregnant, Jacob and Esau are "jostling" for superiority, suggesting this was affecting Rebekka physically, and for her to seek the answer to "Why is this happening to me" from the Lord.


The question of why Isaac is bound and placed on the altar is related to the Ashvamedha custom, whereby a horse, accompanied by warriors, is allowed to wander across territory claimed by a king. Any rival could dispute the authority of the king by challening the warriors and capturing the horse, however if one year had passed without dispute, the horse would be led back to the kings capital to be sacrificed, and the king declared sovereign over the land traversed.

In Genesis the three visitors tell Sarah she will have a son "this time next year", during which time Abraham lived between "Kadesh and Shur". When Isaac is born, he is considered to have traveresed across the promised land within Sarah. However, given Abimelek "sent for Sarah and took her" during the time Isaac could be said to have conceived, Abraham settles any potential claim to Isaac by Abimelek at the Treaty of Beersheba - "Now swear to me here before God that you will not deal falsely with me or my children or my descendants". By resolving any potential dispute, Isaac can now be considered Abraham's "sacrificial horse", bound to then be sacrificed for the owner (of father) to claim sovereignty over the land traversed.

Offerring Isaac symbolically in such a way would have made Abraham the owner of the land promised to him in the eyes of others, but defeats the inheritence of Isaac as his "one true son" and descendent. By stopping the sacrifice, God allows the destiny of Isaac to be fulfilled, providing instead a wild ram, an animal of equal symbolic value to a horse, to be sacrificed instead. A separate nation in promised by God to Ishmael, meaning the reason Abraham had to be stopped from sacrificing Isaac was because he feared God or because he knew God.

Although all religions and rituals are projections of the same transcendental signifier that's signified by them, nevertheless, for my money, the Jewish take on the Akedah is closer to the transcendental signified than is the Ashvamedha ritual. Which means that since I'm trying to relate the Akedah to the transcendental signified, for me, trying to use the Ashvamedah as a tool to decipher the Akedah would probably be backwards.

Are you a student of Vedic religious thought?



John
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
for my money, the Jewish take on the Akedah

For confirmation, would you please articulate this?

Since you're not Jewish and have consistently misrepresented our point of view in the past, arguing against Jews who correct your misconceptions, it would be good to see what you have in mind since you are nominating yourself as our representative.

Thank you in advance,
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Although all religions and rituals are projections of the same transcendental signifier that's signified by them, nevertheless, for my money, the Jewish take on the Akedah is closer to the transcendental signified than is the Ashvamedha ritual. Which means that since I'm trying to relate the Akedah to the transcendental signified, for me, trying to use the Ashvamedah as a tool to decipher the Akedah would probably be backwards.

Are you a student of Vedic religious thought?



John

I am not familiar with the term transcendental signified my apologies, but from what I can understand it appears you are on a personal journey seeking answers to questions that meet a specific criteria?

Whilst I believe the Hebrew scriptures are purposeful to show correlation with other cultures, and that Jewish culture itself doesn't deny the skillful taking of ideas from different sources and improving on them, I hope my input has not been disruptive and reading about the ashvamedha gave you some insight.

I am not a student of Vedic religious thought, and I consider myself an atheist that has an interest in both the Hebrew and Sanskrit scriptures, particularly exploring what makes them different fundamentally. Having no personal bias makes this very rewarding, although my conclusions are not everyones cup of tea.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
For confirmation, would you please articulate this?

Since you're not Jewish and have consistently misrepresented our point of view in the past, arguing against Jews who correct your misconceptions, it would be good to see what you have in mind since you are nominating yourself as our representative.

Thank you in advance,

As I've stated the case in the past, I use the phrase "Jewish context," or "Jewish take," in the general sense that any non-Jew might speak of ideas, scriptures, midrashim, or writings, directly and somewhat undeniably related to Jews and Jewish thought.

For instance, I would say that a paragraph written in Midrash Rabbah concerning the Tanakh ---if somewhat faithfully rendered ---could be considered a "Jewish context, or take" on the passage from the Tanakh it interprets.

True, I've argued with some Jewish person concerning what's found in Midrash Rabbah, or in the writing of a Jewish sage. But when that occurs, it's usually something far different than arguing that my context is a "Jewish context." I try to be fair in compartmentalizing the difference between what Midrash Rabbah, or Rabbi Hirsch says a scripture means, versus what I say it means, even taking Midrash Rabbah and Rabbi HIrsch's interpretation into account. There's is a "Jewish context," while mine is a non-Jewish interpretation informed by Jewish context.

In other words, I use a "Jewish context" (say for instance Jewish interpretation of scripture) in order to justify my own interpretation of scripture, which isn't Jewish per se; and I do so in a manner such that sometimes the lines gets blurred between what I'm calling a "Jewish context, or take" versus my own interpretation informed by the Jewish context and or take.

Most important of all, is that I usually present the Jewish interpretation (say Midrash Rabbah, or Rabbi Hirsch) as beyond repute. I usually don't deny the correctness of the Jewish interpretation. I merely claim that my interpretation, informed by Jewish interpretation, proves that the whole can be greater than the parts. :)

A case in point is my current obsession with the Akedah. Having studied the scriptures for half a century, I've come upon no exegete, to include my mentor Rabbi Hirsch, whose understanding of the Akedah dovetails as closely with mine as does the Shelah HaKaddosh, such that the exegesis I'm doing now, concerning the Akedah, is based not on trying to prove the "Jewish context" of Rabbi Horowitz wrong. On the contrary, I'm digging as deep into the immeasurable truth of Horowitz understanding of the Akedah as I can in order to develop my own exegesis and understanding of the Akedah.

I concede that no matter how deep I dig into the Shelah HaKaddosh's exegesis of the Akedah, nevertheless, my own exegesis won't be "Jewish" no matter what. But it will be informed by Jewish exegesis. And lovingly so, since I probably have more respect for Rabbi Hirsch, Rabbi Horowitz, and the like, than do many if not most Jews.




John
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
As I've stated the case in the past, I use the phrase "Jewish context," or "Jewish take," in the general sense that any non-Jew might speak of ideas, scriptures, midrashim, or writings, directly and somewhat undeniably related to Jews and Jewish thought.

John, you're not Jewish. Over the past, I don't know, 5 years we've been conversing with you on this forum, I cannot think of a single occasion where you accurately represent the Jewish context on anything.

As **I** have stated repeated, have the intestinal fortitude to take credit for your ideas. They are YOURS. They are not Jewish. They are John's Christian ideas which are inspired by snippets of text, sometimes an individual word, which you find in a book written by a Jewish author.

I try to be fair

What's missing isn't fairness it's attention to detail and respect for the authors whose work you pillage, taking what ever sparks your fancy and torching the rest in a blaze of Christian glory.

I concede that no matter how deep I dig into the Shelah HaKaddosh

There it is. You're admitting that you cherry pick. John, please. There will be no objections from me, as soon as you are honest with yourself and anyone reading your words. You prefer YOUR ideas which are NOT from anything which can be desccribed as Jewish, John.

I love you like a brother, but, it's not cool. It's borderline cultural appropration.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I am not familiar with the term transcendental signified my apologies, but from what I can understand it appears you are on a personal journey seeking answers to questions that meet a specific criteria?

Whilst I believe the Hebrew scriptures are purposeful to show correlation with other cultures, and that Jewish culture itself doesn't deny the skillful taking of ideas from different sources and improving on them, I hope my input has not been disruptive and reading about the ashvamedha gave you some insight.

I am not a student of Vedic religious thought, and I consider myself an atheist that has an interest in both the Hebrew and Sanskrit scriptures, particularly exploring what makes them different fundamentally. Having no personal bias makes this very rewarding, although my conclusions are not everyones cup of tea.

I'm of the opinion that all human thought comes from the same place of origin, and is seeking the same thing to one degree or another. So no serious point should be considered disruptive.

A "transcendental signifier" is a singular, absolute, that allows the plurality of relative concepts to exist without their being what Baudrillard called a "simulacrum." In a "simulacrum," all meaning derives only from how relative concepts relate to other relative concepts. Without some grounding absolute principle that forces all the relative concepts into an ordered system (in relation to the absolute), reality is a facade since nothing can be true, or real, but merely tentative since all relationships are arbitrary, relative, and tenative.

Atheism seems to be circumscribe inside its own simulacrum since the atheist possesses self-knowledge of a degree that Rabbi Samson Hirsch claims demands some kind of knowledge of God. There are good arguments that suggest that what the atheist knows about himself and the world of his experiences, is impossible, without an absolute grounding which the theist calls "God."



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I love you like a brother, but, it's not cool. It's borderline cultural appropration.

You know, we could consider Rabbi Hirsch and Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz's claim that the Jew is reborn from his physical birth, i.e., that he is [clearing throat] "born-again," and that this being born-again means he's conceived the second time without semen (so both men say) . . . we'll . . . it wouldn't be too hard to argue that both men are appropriating the Christian idea of the tzaddik being conceived without semen, you know, virgin birth, and that his offspring ---Jesus' offspring ----are born the second time [clearing throat] "born-again," in a process the conception of which is without semen . . . we could argue that Hirsch and Horowitz are borrowing, or stealing, this virgin birth concept, this concept of being born-again (no semen the second time around), generally considered a Christian concepts, and labeling them the highest form of Jewish thought.

We might be able to argue that neither Christians nor Jews are able to patent true concepts so that only Jews or Christians get to think them without paying the patent holder. I don't think true, or factual, biblical exegesis, can be patented, or copyrighted, just yet? And notwithstanding the technical/scientific prowess of our current world, I would still be hard pressed to belive they can do paternity tests to see if a quotation, or idea, is Jewish or not.



John
 
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
A "transcendental signifier" is a singular, absolute, that allows the plurality of relative concepts to exist without their being what Baudrillard called a "simulacrum." In a "simulacrum," all meaning derives only from how relative concepts relate to other relative concepts. Without some grounding absolute principle that forces all the relative concepts into an ordered system (in relation to the absolute), reality is a facade since nothing can be true, or real, but merely tentative since all relationships are arbitrary, relative, and tenative.

I believe a "transcendental signifier" for all religions is unknowable. From here, an explosion of relative descriptions can be made to refer to God including the more conventional ones such as mono, plural, trinity and so forth. In effect all that can be known of God exists in a simulacrum, but the use of this term within this context comes with a weakness given the nature of a simulacrum is sinister and negative. This is to suggest there are "good" relative concepts and "bad" ones, but such determinations can only exists within ones perception.

For example, the consideration of the ashvamedha as a means to know Abraham, and therefore God and approach the transcedental signifier, can become a simulacrum of perception, given one either ignores the logic of its consideration, or has a negative emotional reaction to its consideration. This is in made more disappointing when the current understanding presented by the Rabbis include questions regarding the worth of a wounded ram sacrifice (if I take your quotes to be true) in relation to Isaac.


Atheism seems to be circumscribe inside its own simulacrum since the atheist possesses self-knowledge of a degree that Rabbi Samson Hirsch claims demands some kind of knowledge of God.
The explanation that I believe the Rabbi Simon Hirsch is coming to is interesting, as it is dependent upon what is meant by knowledge of God. The "self-knowledge" an atheist would possess, truths which are accepted but not "understood", include the concepts of consciousness and also of ego, or together as Atman. From this, it is argued, the understanding of an absolute ego, or Brahma/God, and an eternal consciousness, or Brahman/Spirit of God should be formulated.

Atheism could be described, as you suggest, a simulacrum, that begins as an illogical determination of, or negative emotional reaction to, the socially accepted definition of God in the real world.


There are good arguments that suggest that what the atheist knows about himself and the world of his experiences, is impossible, without an absolute grounding which the theist calls "God."



John
In addition to what I have mentioned above, by adding Kant's antinomy of necessary being or not, "God" being the "absolutely necessary being"
  • There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
  • An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world, nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I believe a "transcendental signifier" for all religions is unknowable. From here, an explosion of relative descriptions can be made to refer to God including the more conventional ones such as mono, plural, trinity and so forth. In effect all that can be known of God exists in a simulacrum, but the use of this term within this context comes with a weakness given the nature of a simulacrum is sinister and negative. This is to suggest there are "good" relative concepts and "bad" ones, but such determinations can only exists within ones perception.

The problem with there being "good" relative concepts versus "bad" ones, is that without an absolute determination of "good" versus "bad," even the determination of "good" versus "bad" is merely arbitrary, i.e., relative to one's frame of reference or relative values.

For example, the consideration of the ashvamedha as a means to know Abraham, and therefore God and approach the transcedental signifier, can become a simulacrum of perception, given one either ignores the logic of its consideration, or has a negative emotional reaction to its consideration. This is in made more disappointing when the current understanding presented by the Rabbis include questions regarding the worth of a wounded ram sacrifice (if I take your quotes to be true) in relation to Isaac.

In the Judaeo/Christian concept of the evolution of revelation, there are no doubt wide detours from what would be the absolute determinate of truth and reality. We're flawed creatures such that we advance only through difficult persistence. Nevertheless, the Judaeo/Christian "faith" in the absolute keeps mankind on a step-by-step, year-by-year, pursuit of truth, fact, and reality (in opposition to the enemy of falsehood), in a slowly but surely evolution of the knowledge that will eventually, but surely, bring mankind to a place where he'll finally undo the second law of thermodynamics that represents "bad" since it's the power of death and decay.

Case in point, it's not a fantasy to believe that with the supercomputers and AI we have today (which came about through the evolution of knowledge), we will soon be able to locate and exterminate the genes that lead to aging therein returning mankind to the time when living organisms were immortal (they didn't senescence and die).

The explanation that I believe the Rabbi Simon Hirsch is coming to is interesting, as it is dependent upon what is meant by knowledge of God. The "self-knowledge" an atheist would possess, truths which are accepted but not "understood", include the concepts of consciousness and also of ego, or together as Atman. From this, it is argued, the understanding of an absolute ego, or Brahma/God, and an eternal consciousness, or Brahman/Spirit of God should be formulated.

If this speaks of an evolution from full atheism, to the idea of a non-theistic god or god-principle, then I would see that as a positive leap ---guided by the theistic absolute ----toward the inevitable truth about the theistic absolute; the theistic absolute could be thought of as something like a magnet drawing in every thought subject to the power of absolute truth (2 Cor. 10:5), rather than labored down with decay and half-truths.

Atheism could be described, as you suggest, a simulacrum, that begins as an illogical determination of, or negative emotional reaction to, the socially accepted definition of God in the real world.

That's a thread all in itself. For a long time I've wanted to examine the truth elements in atheism. There are many, and they are powerful and important. In my opinion, theism would do well to incorporate the truth of atheism into it's revelation.


In addition to what I have mentioned above, by adding Kant's antinomy of necessary being or not, "God" being the "absolutely necessary being"
  • There belongs to the world, either as its part or as its cause, a being that is absolutely necessary.
  • An absolutely necessary being nowhere exists in the world, nor does it exist outside the world as its cause.

This would be part of the truth of atheism that I mentioned. But for me, the key is the word "being." There isn't a necessary "being" in the general sense of the word. And that's where atheism is founded in truth. But there is a necessary concept, Logos, or absolute principle, without which, we wouldn't be able to argue such things since everything would be tentative, relative, arbitrary.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
You know, we could consider Rabbi Hirsch and Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz's claim that the Jew is reborn from his physical birth, i.e., that he is [clearing throat] "born-again," and that this being born-again means he's conceived the second time without semen (so both men say) . . . we'll . . . it wouldn't be too hard to argue that both men are appropriating the Christian idea of the tzaddik being conceived without semen, you know, virgin birth, and that his offspring ---Jesus' offspring ----are born the second time [clearing throat] "born-again," in a process the conception of which is without semen . . . we could argue that Hirsch and Horowitz are borrowing, or stealing, this virgin birth concept, this concept of being born-again (no semen the second time around), generally considered a Christian concepts, and labeling them the highest form of Jewish thought.

As people of deep faith and of great literary and aesthetic sensibility, the kabbalists also found themselves impressed by, and perhaps even attracted to, certain aspects of the Christian story and the religious lives of the large and powerful monastic communities . . . Much that is to be found in the Zohar was intended to serve as a counterweight to the potential attractiveness of Christianity to Jews, and perhaps to the kabbalists themselves.​
Arthur Green, Intro to Daniel Matt’s translation of The Zohar, vol. 1, p. LX.​



John
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Depends. :)



John
I found it interesting you say "depends".....

When a few posts prior you said ...

..."And the elderly can rely on them too if my blabbering about devekut causes them to lose their bladder"....

That would help to be wearing depends (noun), under those circumstances. ;)

You never cease to intrigue me John. Did you know John is alternative for Jack, ...Jack is alternative for Jacob...

Jacob got in a fight with God and won, earning him the name Israel, which means "contender with God". God said "you have fought with God and won".

And when God asked Jacob to let go of him, Jacob said "No, I will not, not until you (give a certain reward".

So, Jacob, realizing it was God incarnate all night long he was wrestling with, essentially said "my will comes first, your will comes second. I will not let go until you give me what I demand ".

I believe he was showing God the same disrespect that God shows to his people, and people in general. He also stole the greatest blessing in scripture, by loyalty to a woman (above God) and I think the Divine feminine helped Jacob win that fight.

Pray about it.;)
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
For the righteous Jew, the tzaddik, the wearing of the shel rosh (head tefillin) signifies, ritually, symbolically, that he's "reconsecrated" the means of reproduction (by bleeding the serpentine flesh) so that holy seed comes through the brain rather than being redirected through the serpentine flesh. For the tzaddik, the kundalini has left the testemony of the serpentine septic tank between the legs and arrived, enlightened, at the two hemispheres which alone are the exclusive home of holy seed. It's therefore fitting that the circumcised male first dons his head tefillin at the bar mitzvah that's the mitzvah associated with his sexual coming of age. In effect, his first erection, ritually speaking, is a spiritual erection, the donning of the shel rosh on his forehead.

Ever since the sin, when Adam and Eve became aware that they were naked and became ashamed on that account, and the whole rite of circumcision became connected to עריה, nakedness and shame, observance of circumcision has become much more crucial. Man's attachment to material values stems from the original sin. . . [Circumcision is thus] תקון, repair-work, performed to the damaged spiritual state of the universe.​
Ibid.​

The first couple's "shame" in relationship to "nakedness" עריה (a shameful-nakedness somewhat ameliorated by circumcision) is uncovered to an extent by the Hebrew letters involved, since the word for the cause of the shame in nakedness, i.e., the "orlah" (uncircumcision), that is "ערלה", is the same word as "nakedness" עריה, but where the yod י, which is the sign of circumcision, is replaced by the lamed ל, which is the letter associated with "knowledge." In effect, Eve's desire for knowledge (the lamed), led to knowledge concerning the brokenness of an uncircumcised body (a body where the yod is covered up by the lamed), a brokenness responsible for the conception and birth of Cain.

The lamed, at this level, characterizes man's desire and aspiration to understand the nature of the world he lives in. This "mother" instinct in the heart of man strives to know "mother nature" ----Eve, "the mother of all life."​
Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, The Alef Beit, p. 183.​

It's by the flesh that covers up circumcision, i.e., the orlah, that Adam gains knowledge of Eve, the mother of all life save one. Cain is the initial result of the gaining of that knowledge of mother nature, Eve. It's Adam's desire to know mother nature, Eve, in the biblical sense, that brought out the ugly truth concerning what Genesis 2:21 entails for the tail-end of ha-adam's once holy body. The word for the uncircumcised body ---ערלה--- is the word for nakedness ----עריה ----where the mark of circumcision (the yod י) is covered up by the letter associated with the desire for knowledge (the lamed ל). Adam's formerly holy body is covered up by the letter lamed ל, which cover-up, transforms the yod or yad ׳ (a letter associated with the male organ) into the newly augmented organ (Genesis 2:21) through which the putrid seed, semen, comes, so to say, in order to conceive all of us (through which all of us are conceived) ---save one---in the likeness of that bastion of unholiness Cain.

From where do you come? From a putrid drop טפה סרוחה.​

Pirkei Avot 3:1.​



John
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
The first couple's "shame" in relationship to "nakedness" עריה (a shameful-nakedness somewhat ameliorated by circumcision) is uncovered to an extent by the Hebrew letters involved, since the word for the cause of the shame in nakedness, i.e., the "orlah" (uncircumcision), that is "ערלה", is the same word as "nakedness" עריה, but where the yod י, which is the sign of circumcision, is replaced by the lamed ל, which is the letter associated with "knowledge." In effect, Eve's desire for knowledge (the lamed), led to knowledge concerning the brokenness of an uncircumcised body (a body where the yod is covered up by the lamed), a brokenness responsible for the conception and birth of Cain.

The lamed, at this level, characterizes man's desire and aspiration to understand the nature of the world he lives in. This "mother" instinct in the heart of man strives to know "mother nature" ----Eve, "the mother of all life."​
Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, The Alef Beit, p. 183.​

It's by the flesh that covers up circumcision, i.e., the orlah, that Adam gains knowledge of Eve, the mother of all life save one. Cain is the initial result of the gaining of that knowledge of mother nature, Eve. It's Adam's desire to know mother nature, Eve, in the biblical way, that brought out the ugly truth concerning what Genesis 2:21 entails for the tail-end of ha-adam's once holy body. The word for the uncircumcised body ---ערלה--- is the word for nakedness ----עריה ----where the mark of circumcision (the yod י) is covered up by the letter associated with the desire for knowledge (the lamed ל). Adam's formerly holy body is covered up by the letter lamed ל, which cover-up, transforms the yod or yad ׳ (a letter associated with the male organ) into the newly augmented organ (Genesis 2:21) through which the putrid seed, semen, comes, so to say, in order to conceive all of us (through which all of us are conceived) ---save one---in the likeness of that bastion of unholiness Cain.

From where do you come? From a putrid drop טפה סרוחה.​

Pirkei Avot 3:1.​



John
Never ceases to amaze me!:laughing::clapping::praying:
 
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