Redemption

[s3v3n]

I want to honestly ask if anyone guilty of any crime can be redeemed and if so why? Is there no crime, no sin so horrible as to be beyond forgiveness?

Along the same theme, if redemption is possible for the most heinous, why is it impossible for others who could be called innocent?

S3V3N

 

[whereismynotecard]

Is this a religious thing? In my personal opinion, I won't ever forgive certain people for certain actions. That's just my own deal though.

 

[Draka]

Redemption from what? Victims may or may not forgive and that is their right. The perpetrator of a crime may or may not forgive themselves and that is their issue to deal with. What is the deal with redemption? Forgiveness from a deity? Doesn't that depend on the deity believed in? Redemption as in "making right" or "atoning"? Some things may never be able to be made up for in this lifetime. Now if you subscribe to the belief of only living one lifetime then you may see that as a problem I guess.

 

[Mister Emu]

It depends... if you mean redemption as in atoning for an act... no, not all acts can be atoned for... there is nothing you can do to make up for raping or murdering... that act, and its consequences will last...

Now if you mean in a theological manner, all can be redeemed...

Forgiveness is up to you, the victim, and God...

 

[Tiapan]

According to some, as we are all gods creations we enact his will therefore all crime is gods will, there is no need for redemption.

Cheers

 

[Kathryn]

As a Christian, here is my belief about forgiveness:

God can and will forgive any sin of a truly repentent person. But as others have pointed out already, that's only from one perspective. The sinner must forgive himself. And those he has sinned against may or may not forgive him.

Also, forgiveness by others, or by God, doesn't wipe away the real world ramifications of the sin. Ted Bundy may have been contrite, and may have even been forgiven by God (no one knows except God on that one), but he still destroyed lives and permanently scarred families, and he still was executed, even though in his final interview he seemed truly horrified by his own actions, and truly repentent.

In another more mundane scenario - we can forgive someone but that doesn't mean that we interact with them as if the offense never happened.

 

[Man of Faith]

We must look at this from God's perspective. We humans want to compare us to each other to see who is worse and who has the greater sin. My faith is in the Bible and it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It also says whosoever believes in Jesus will get saved. It says that Jesus died for all humans, not only for those that did lesser sins, so redemption is possible for all.

The OP says that there are so called innocent humans in the world, the Bible says that there is none good, not one. The reason people think there are innocents is because we cannot see peoples sins, but God can. I agree that there are different types of sins and different levels of sins. I also believe it is Biblical that there are different degrees of punishment in hell and different degrees of reward in Heaven. God's justice is perfect, we don't have to worry about that. We do have to worry about where we go when we die, IMO. We should get that settled because we only have one life, one chance, we can't do it after we die. IMO.

 

[s3v3n]

Redemption from what? Victims may or may not forgive and that is their right. The perpetrator of a crime may or may not forgive themselves and that is their issue to deal with. What is the deal with redemption? Forgiveness from a deity? Doesn't that depend on the deity believed in? Redemption as in "making right" or "atoning"? Some things may never be able to be made up for in this lifetime. Now if you subscribe to the belief of only living one lifetime then you may see that as a problem I guess.

I left the matter open for this reason, redemption in itself would imply a deity, however, I'm just as interested different interpretations.

Specific to what you've said, most I would be interested in what you think, mostly the last was really interesting to me. In a belief system that does involve multiple lives, and infinity, is there an incarnation low enough to atone for somethings? Someone mentioned Bundy, a sick, sociopathic who never showed the slightest remorse ever, how many horrible lives would atend atonement for him?

s3v3n

 

[.lava]

I want to honestly ask if anyone guilty of any crime can be redeemed and if so why? Is there no crime, no sin so horrible as to be beyond forgiveness?

Along the same theme, if redemption is possible for the most heinous, why is it impossible for others who could be called innocent?

S3V3N

according to our knowledge there is one thing that God does not forgive. religion is supposed to lead people to God. people either want to reach God or not. one has to be chosen by God to reach him and God choses them both. i mean God even choses atheist or satanist people. but there is one kind he does not chose. those are people who do not want to reach God but they also prevent others from the path that leads God and make people end up in hell. they mostly happened to be religious leaders. they are less than 10% of entire population.





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[Draka]

I left the matter open for this reason, redemption in itself would imply a deity, however, I'm just as interested different interpretations.

Specific to what you've said, most I would be interested in what you think, mostly the last was really interesting to me. In a belief system that does involve multiple lives, and infinity, is there an incarnation low enough to atone for somethings? Someone mentioned Bundy, a sick, sociopathic who never showed the slightest remorse ever, how many horrible lives would atend atonement for him?

s3v3n

Wouldn't be for me to say. See, as a believer in reincarnation and karma I believe that we all generate both positive and negative karma and that carries over into future lifetimes. For his crimes he may be facing several lifetimes of hardship and pain, or just a few really traumatic ones. There is also the thought that, though the karma must be paid, his crimes were meant to happen so that others' bad karma could be made up for. The victims of those crimes could have had accrued lots of bad karma in previous lifetimes and perhaps this was part of their "atonement". Fact is, no one knows.

Think of it this way: I lost my daughters several years ago and it caused me great pain. Now, it is possible that I did something in a previous life that somehow warranted me going through this pain and it is a hurdle I must overcome in order to learn one of my important life lessons from. However, this does not totally excuse the person who maliciously took my girls from me. She will have to face the karma she is building mounds of as well. It is all about balance.

 

[s3v3n]

As a Christian, here is my belief about forgiveness:

God can and will forgive any sin of a truly repentent person. But as others have pointed out already, that's only from one perspective. The sinner must forgive himself. And those he has sinned against may or may not forgive him.

Setting aside the issue of whether the sinner forgives themselves, your first comment about "can and will forgive any sin", does that truly extend to anything? Genocide, murder, worse...and there is worse, these sins are forgivable if the sinner is repentant? A good direct example here would be the Son of Sam, he killed several people in NYC because a barking dog told him to, in prison he had a supposed crises of faith and is now an ordained minister, you can buy his sermons on the internet.

Also, forgiveness by others, or by God, doesn't wipe away the real world ramifications of the sin. Ted Bundy may have been contrite, and may have even been forgiven by God (no one knows except God on that one), but he still destroyed lives and permanently scarred families, and he still was executed, even though in his final interview he seemed truly horrified by his own actions, and truly repentent.

I've read that interview, and many of the ones that came before. Most interpretations of Bundy's remorse was that he was afraid of dying, not that he had any feelings one way or the other over his actions. Even his own defense team called him the truest sociopath they'd ever witnessed. So I won't use him as an example, but what about more complex situations.
Nazi Youth for instance, or the "Wild Boyz" of Rawanda, Congo, Sudan - these are children who at ages as young as 6 are forced to murder, often their own families, drugged, and made to do any number of atrocities, made into children murder soldiers, using drugs, rape, multilation as weapons of war. Whats happens to those children later? Some of the so called Wild Boyz from the Rawandan Genocide in the mid-90's are now in their mid-late twenties, some have moved to other conflicts zones and are still doing what they learned to do as children, but some have fled to other countries and live with what they did. How does someone like this find peace? I guess it's really three questions, first a person is directly responsible for dozens, maybe hundreds of rapes, mutilations and murders. Can God forgive them if they are truly sorry and willing to do anything to repent? Second, should society forgive them, should they be allowed to be a part of society outside prison ever? Third, going to self-forgiveness, what could someone like this ever do to make up for their actions?

S3v3n

 

[s3v3n]

Is this a religious thing? In my personal opinion, I won't ever forgive certain people for certain actions. That's just my own deal though.

Not a religious thing, an opinion thing, yours is welcome...

 

[Mister Emu]

Can God forgive them if they are truly sorry and willing to do anything to repent?

Repentance is a state of mind... and yes, if they are truly repentant God will forgive them...

Second, should society forgive them, should they be allowed to be a part of society outside prison ever?

That is harder... I am inclined to say yes to the first part, and no to the second.

Third, going to self-forgiveness, what could someone like this ever do to make up for their actions?

Nothing.

 

[s3v3n]

Wouldn't be for me to say. See, as a believer in reincarnation and karma I believe that we all generate both positive and negative karma and that carries over into future lifetimes. For his crimes he may be facing several lifetimes of hardship and pain, or just a few really traumatic ones. There is also the thought that, though the karma must be paid, his crimes were meant to happen so that others' bad karma could be made up for. The victims of those crimes could have had accrued lots of bad karma in previous lifetimes and perhaps this was part of their "atonement". Fact is, no one knows.

Think of it this way: I lost my daughters several years ago and it caused me great pain. Now, it is possible that I did something in a previous life that somehow warranted me going through this pain and it is a hurdle I must overcome in order to learn one of my important life lessons from. However, this does not totally excuse the person who maliciously took my girls from me. She will have to face the karma she is building mounds of as well. It is all about balance.

This one is really interesting to me, if I ask clumsy questions it is because I don't understand not out of disrespect, I honestly am interested in understanding your view. The idea of kharma has always tripped me up on this one point, meaning I don't understand, if as you say the horrible things that happened to you are the result of a crime you committed in another life, what does that say about free will? The free will of the criminal who committed the horrible act in this life, the free will that was taken from the victims when they died in this life? Do you believe they may have been paying a debt as well?

Again, all respect to you and your experience, I truly want to understand what i do not.

S3v3n

 

[Draka]

This one is really interesting to me, if I ask clumsy questions it is because I don't understand not out of disrespect, I honestly am interested in understanding your view. The idea of kharma has always tripped me up on this one point, meaning I don't understand, if as you say the horrible things that happened to you are the result of a crime you committed in another life, what does that say about free will? The free will of the criminal who committed the horrible act in this life, the free will that was taken from the victims when they died in this life? Do you believe they may have been paying a debt as well?

Again, all respect to you and your experience, I truly want to understand what i do not.

S3v3n

Honestly, I don't know. I don't know the big picture and am content with that. All I know is that I believe in reincarnation for numerous reasons and that I believe in karma for I have seen it at work. Karma doesn't just affect future lifetimes, but can affect you in your current one. As for how karma plays out from incarnation to incarnation I can only surmise. Free will is a tricky subject. In some cases I think we have it and in others I don't. I think we come in to each incarnation with the knowledge that there are hurdles to overcome. Where as whether we choose to buy Sara Lee bread or Wonder bread at the store can be a matter of free will, but perhaps certain other things we have no choice in. Have you ever felt drawn to do something for no reason at all? Like take a different way home from the store, or go for a walk out of the blue? Perhaps you get in an accident, or witness a crime, or trip and break your ankle which lands you in the hospital where you meet a wonderful nurse who you fall in love with and have 5 children with. My point, after all this rambling, is that perhaps some things are fated. Perhaps karma plays a part in that. Perhaps it doesn't and I'm pulling out stuff from nowhere. All in all, we don't know and can never truly know, but it is an interesting subject to ponder on.

 

[imaginaryme]

Redemption is a good tune by Gackt. The need of forgiveness is greatest for the self, as has been mentioned. We forgive others their trespasses not for others, but for ourselves. Free will is an illusion, and everything else is ethics; meaning that the morality of individuals provides the basis for the ethics of society.

 

[s3v3n]

Redemption is a good tune by Gackt. The need of forgiveness is greatest for the self, as has been mentioned. We forgive others their trespasses not for others, but for ourselves. Free will is an illusion, and everything else is ethics; meaning that the morality of individuals provides the basis for the ethics of society.

If free will is an illusion than ethics and morality are also both illusionary and irrelevant....the ethics of a society is subjective at best, there are social situations that become accepted at a specific time and place that history, or other/later societies will call atrocity.

?
s3v3n

 

[Kathryn]

I believe that God promises to forgive ANY sin that a person is truly repentent for - and only God can judge the true repentence of a person.

As for individuals or society forgiving - all sins have consequences, even sins that are forgiven. One can forgive someone but still allow them to experience the ramifications of their actions.

 

[imaginaryme]

If free will is an illusion than ethics and morality are also both illusionary and irrelevant....the ethics of a society is subjective at best, there are social situations that become accepted at a specific time and place that history, or other/later societies will call atrocity.

?
s3v3n

And? Does history read any differently? How does a belief in "redemption" not imply "original sin"? All religions are intolerant as they foster an "us versus them" attitude. I believe in love because that is what I do, love. I believe in humanity because that is what I see, humanity. I believe in Redemption by Gackt because it rocks. The other kind is religious nonsense.

 

[Kathryn]

I guess it's really three questions, first a person is directly responsible for dozens, maybe hundreds of rapes, mutilations and murders. Can God forgive them if they are truly sorry and willing to do anything to repent?

Yes, God can and will forgive any sin - ANY SIN - that a truly repentent person lays before the cross. Why would you feel that God would be limited in His power to forgive? The sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to cover the sins of the entire world. Now - whether we accept that grace and forgiveness is a whole other matter.

Second, should society forgive them, should they be allowed to be a part of society outside prison ever?

Sins and crimes have ramifications. The criminal justice system and the military have the responsibility to protect society from dangerous people. We have the responsiblity to protect ourselves and our loved ones from dangerous people. Self defense and the defense of innocent people is not wrong. Punishing a crime is not wrong - because punishment and fear of punishment is a deterrent to bad behavior. But don't confuse forgiveness with forgetfulness. When my teenager sneaks out at night, I punish him by taking away privileges. He may be truly repentent and I may truly forgive him, but that doesn't mean I don't punish him anyway. And that punishment is designed to change his BEHAVIOR. Only he can change his HEART. Just because he's truly sorry he snuck out, doesn't mean that he won't do it again - and it also doesn't mean that I just forget the nature of a teenager. I forgive him, but he's still grounded.

Third, going to self-forgiveness, what could someone like this ever do to make up for their actions?

What can any of us do to make up for all the wrongs we inflict on other people over a lifetime? Forgiveness and restitution are two different things.

If a person CAN make restitution to someone they've done wrong - then they should. But sometimes there's nothing we can do to truly undo damage that we've done to another person. What should we do - just lay down and die? Or should we just get up each day and try to make the world a better place - wherever we are?

If you haven't done so already - let me warn you: At some point in your life you are going to do something so stupid, so wrong, that you create a situation that you deeply regret - and you will be heartbroken because you will not be able to undo what's done. You will need to ask for forgiveness - and you may not get it. Even so, you will have to forgive yourself in order to move forward.

You can take that one to the bank.