Redistribution of Health Care?

[Reverend Rick]

Why are we not hearing about any plans for more hospitals or medical clinics?

Why are we not seeing any plan to attract more doctors or nurses?

There is a nursing shortage out there.

If we enroll 50 million more people with their new Barry Obama health care cards, will one more person be seen on any given day by a doctor?

I believe we do not have a new health care plan in the works. What we have is the redistribution of health care. Many will benefit, but just as many will not be seen on any given day. There will not be one more doctor or one more hospital bed after a new health care plan is passed.

Some will suffer while others will be treated, just as it is now. To me, this is a zero sum game without additional doctors and hospitals.

 

[yossarian22]

Why are we not hearing about any plans for more hospitals or medical clinics?

Because they are not strictly necessary

Why are we not seeing any plan to attract more doctors or nurses?
There is a nursing shortage out there.

Schools are already offering scholarships for this naturally. When a field has high demand, colleges will try to get people into that major by themselves, because high demand means high pay. Which means richer alumni.

If we enroll 50 million more people with their new Barry Obama health care cards, will one more person be seen on any given day by a doctor?

I believe we do not have a new health care plan in the works. What we have is the redistribution of health care. Many will benefit, but just as many will not be seen on any given day. There will not be one more doctor or one more hospital bed after a new health care plan is passed.

Some will suffer while others will be treated, just as it is now. To me, this is a zero sum game without additional doctors and hospitals.

You are wrong. The reason people have such horrendous times in hospitals is because of how crowded emergency rooms are. They are crowded because (in order to be a hospital) the emergency room has to accept people with urgent medical needs regardless of insurance status. And we have 50 million uninsured who avoid the hospital unless its absolutely necessary. And when its necessary, they have a higher likelihood of needed immediate medical attention from an emergency room.

"Redistributing helathcare" (the idea that health of all things should be concentrated should repugnant to any person who pretends to have a moral code) won't increase strain on current health care facilities significantly enough to degrade the quality of service. This is crap spread by insurance companies, who by all accounts, should not exist.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We agree, Health insurance should not exist. Insurance is for pooling risk for things that MIGHT happen, not for things that WILL happen.

 

[Falvlun]

Why are we not hearing about any plans for more hospitals or medical clinics?

Why are we not seeing any plan to attract more doctors or nurses?

There is a nursing shortage out there.

If we enroll 50 million more people with their new Barry Obama health care cards, will one more person be seen on any given day by a doctor?

I believe we do not have a new health care plan in the works. What we have is the redistribution of health care. Many will benefit, but just as many will not be seen on any given day. There will not be one more doctor or one more hospital bed after a new health care plan is passed.

Some will suffer while others will be treated, just as it is now. To me, this is a zero sum game without additional doctors and hospitals.

That's right! Keep the poor people out of my hospitals! That way, I will have a doctor when I need one, and to heck with everyone else!

This is the same argument my dad was moaning about: we can't pass health care reform because then more people with be flooding our healthcare system and we'll (and by "we" he only means those who deserve healthcare, apparently) have to wait.

No matter how true this might be (ie, adding all these people means longer wait times), do you not see how extremely slimey, heartless, and sickening you sound?

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's right! Keep the poor people out of my hospitals! That way, I will have a doctor when I need one, and to heck with everyone else!

That's right, keep them old folks who have worked hard all their lives who need health care to survive waiting for service so we can treat someone else's foot fungus.

This is the same argument my dad was moaning about: we can't pass health care reform because then more people with be flooding our healthcare system and we'll (and by "we" he only means those who deserve healthcare, apparently) have to wait.

No matter how true this might be (ie, adding all these people means longer wait times), do you not see how extremely slimey, heartless, and sickening you sound?

Someone will do without health care each and every day, just as it is now. Why are we not building more doctors offices and hospitals? That is equally as heartless denying old people who need care to survive. Who gets to choose who will get into the doctors office on any given day?

 

[Falvlun]

That's right, keep them old folks who have worked hard all their lives who need health care to survive waiting for service so we can treat someone else's foot fungus.

Yeah, because foot fungus will be treated over some life-threatening illness.

Besides, should the young people who need health care to survive be denied simply because there are old people who need health care too?

Someone will do without health care each and every day, just as it is now. Why are we not building more doctors offices and hospitals? That is equally as heartless denying old people who need care to survive. Who gets to choose who will get into the doctors office on any given day?

My guess is that it's the doctors who will choose, based upon urgency of the health care required.

Do you have any proof that no new doctor offices/hopsitals etc are in the works? I mean, why would demand go up, and nobody think that a hospital would be a good thing to invest in?

And where is all this "old people won't get health care anymore if health care reform is passed" crap coming from?

Just because you're using grandma as your poster child, it doesn't negate the fact that you are still advocating from the position of "us who deserve to have healthcare" against "those" who don't apparently deserve any, lest they take away some of your precious doctor time.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe it is pretty arrogant to believe health care should be provided to you at no cost just like air and water is. Health care costs money. If your life is not in danger, you should expect to pony up some green if you want to be seen. Lets not forget that we already give health care to the poor. We are talking about people with jobs here.

 

[Falvlun]

I believe it is pretty arrogant to believe health care should be provided to you at no cost just like air and water is. Health care costs money. If your life is not in danger, you should expect to pony up some green if you want to be seen. Lets not forget that we already give health care to the poor. We are talking about people with jobs here.

Ah. Change the subject, I see.

As conservatives love to point out, a national health care system would not be free: it would be payed through taxes. Thus, if you work and are paying income taxes, you will be paying for healthcare.

In addition, it is cheaper to address health issues before they become life threatening. The prognosis for a good outcome is also better. Why do you think we should wait only for emergencies?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Ah. Change the subject, I see.

As conservatives love to point out, a national health care system would not be free: it would be payed through taxes. Thus, if you work and are paying income taxes, you will be paying for healthcare.

In addition, it is cheaper to address health issues before they become life threatening. The prognosis for a good outcome is also better. Why do you think we should wait only for emergencies?

This is a myth. If we screen 50 people to find one illness that could have been treated earlier, there would be no cost savings. Your buddy Barry spewed that rhetoric in a town hall meeting. His example was managing a diabetic and amputation. He said it would cost 20,000 to remove a foot. Medicare pays about 800 dollars for the procedure.

Your missing the whole point. I will repeat, why does the health care plan not mention more facilities? You act like the doctors office is ran like the hospital with triage. There you would be correct, a foot fungus would be over looked. The five o'clock appointment is for anything. People with mundane conditions would crowd out others who really need to see the doctor. If this was not true, people would be piling up outside dieing. That's not happening, yet. If you don't charge folks for an office visit, they will be there all the time clogging up the system.

 

[yossarian22]

We agree, Health insurance should not exist. Insurance is for pooling risk for things that MIGHT happen, not for things that WILL happen.

Not quite what I meant. The concept of insurance itself is sound, as it is nothing more than spreading out the cost of one's health into more manageable chunks. Its easier to pay $10,000 over the course of 5 years than it is to pay it in one shot. (for most families anyways) The problem is when we allow these companies to exist for profit. Health care is an essential service. It is also inelastic. The choice between dying and living is not a choice at all. This means that they can charge whatever they like. Health care facilities are extremely expensive, so competition is minimal at best and there is no chance for meaningful improvement.

I believe it is pretty arrogant to believe health care should be provided to you at no cost just like air and water is. Health care costs money. If your life is not in danger, you should expect to pony up some green if you want to be seen. Lets not forget that we already give health care to the poor. We are talking about people with jobs here.

Except not seeing a denstist doesnt magically make your toothache disappear. It just means that infection is going to go untreated until the point where you are about to die. Waiting until the absolute last moment to provide healthcare is barbaric.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Except not seeing a denstist doesnt magically make your toothache disappear. It just means that infection is going to go untreated until the point where you are about to die. Waiting until the absolute last moment to provide healthcare is barbaric.

Dentistry is the perfect example. Many people with health insurance do not have dental insurance. The dentists is cheaper than the doctor. An oral surgeon makes less than other surgeons.

Once again, we are talking about people with jobs here. It's not barbaric to have to pay to have your tooth removed. I could say it is barbaric to walk instead of drive a car as well. Should we give everyone a car?

 

[Tiapan]

Why do you pay tax if the primary concern of any government is not the welfare of its citizens.
From outside the american health system is a joke. There are plenty of examples from other nations where there is insurance (to get the doctor you want, when you want) but they also have a minimum safety net to protect the weak and poor. Australia's system is not perfect but it makes the US system a laughing stock.

Why shouldn't health and education be a governments largest expenditures?

People dying in Ambulances because the patient is shuttled around to find a hosplital that accepts his credit card, are we talking a third world nation here or what?

When you mix capitalism with health insurance what do you get? A disproportionate system. Insuring the young at the exclusion of the risky old is cream for jam so you can offer cheaper premiums. But it catches up when they get a bit older and can't afford the higher rates. So they die. Surely it is better to spread the entire risk over the whole population demographic, than cause corporate selectivity based on risk. Most of us will endure all the stages of life from birth to old age and death, so why not spread the cost?

Cheers

 

[Reverend Rick]

The problem is, over half of working Americans get every penny of there tax withholding back and then some every year. When the majority of Americans can vote that the minority pay for everything, it becomes grossly unfair.

Everyone should have some skin in the game. Too many underachievers get a free pass.

 

[Falvlun]

This is a myth. If we screen 50 people to find one illness that could have been treated earlier, there would be no cost savings. Your buddy Barry spewed that rhetoric in a town hall meeting. His example was managing a diabetic and amputation. He said it would cost 20,000 to remove a foot. Medicare pays about 800 dollars for the procedure.

What is a myth? The fact that treating cancer before it has spread to your lymph nodes will not only cost less to treat but will also mean that you have a better chance of survival? There has been a big push towards preventative care, and this was even before Obama. You think doctors are all in on this "myth"?

Your missing the whole point. I will repeat, why does the health care plan not mention more facilities?

Because this does not fall in the scope of this particular health care reform bill. One bill can't cover it all.

Besides... Are you suggesting that the government should be opening new hospitals? This seems like something that would rectify itself: supply and demand sort of thing, without any legislation necessarily needed. Where I think the government could help out (and which I thought was already in the works) was offering more scholarships to doctors who are planning on becoming general practitioners.

You act like the doctors office is ran like the hospital with triage. There you would be correct, a foot fungus would be over looked. The five o'clock appointment is for anything. People with mundane conditions would crowd out others who really need to see the doctor. If this was not true, people would be piling up outside dieing. That's not happening, yet. If you don't charge folks for an office visit, they will be there all the time clogging up the system.

I would be willing to take that risk. I find the picture you are painting to be alarmist and improbable. So I'm putting my money on health care reform. There is no reason why people in this country should have to go without health care because they can not afford it. And that being the case, there is certainly no reason that people should go without health care in this country simply because some people are too selfish to share.

 

[Zephyr]

The problem is, over half of working Americans get every penny of there tax withholding back and then some every year. When the majority of Americans can vote that the minority pay for everything, it becomes grossly unfair.

Everyone should have some skin in the game. Too many underachievers get a free pass.

So we should solve the problem of people not being able to afford health care...by taxing people who can't afford health care?

 

[yossarian22]

Dentistry is the perfect example. Many people with health insurance do not have dental insurance. The dentists is cheaper than the doctor. An oral surgeon makes less than other surgeons.

It is the worst example for your point. Dentists are paid less because they aren't view as essential. So people without insurance don't really go to the dentist. Which results in stuff like a tooth infection killing people. People are getting killed over something that could be easily treated in the 1800s.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problem is, over half of working Americans get every penny of there tax withholding back and then some every year. When the majority of Americans can vote that the minority pay for everything, it becomes grossly unfair.

It's interest. Banks do it, so why shouldn't the government. I know it's not actually interest, but since they borrow our money, why shouldn't we get something extra in return. I have about 25% of my checks taken out in taxes, which that 25% would help out significantly. Which isn't always true though. My last employer didn't pay the correct county with my taxes, so I ended up owing a good sum to the correct county. However, my employer before them took out extra taxes, so yes, I got a massive return.
What is also grossly unfair is how the working class gets pretty much nothing in return for being the foundation and support for a business, and the executives horde the profits.Walmart for example, is very bad about this. They could easily afford to give their employees a discounted insurance. But that might mean the executives would have to give up some fo their own income, even though it would be pocket change compaired to rest of what they make.

Once again, we are talking about people with jobs here. It's not barbaric to have to pay to have your tooth removed. I could say it is barbaric to walk instead of drive a car as well. Should we give everyone a car?

If your disabled, living on a tight budget, or just don't have much of an income at all, then a dentist visit is even out of reach. Tooth aches and decay even become things to just deal with, even though your heart health is very dependant upon your oral health. I think it cost my brother somewhere between 800 - 900 dollars to have all his teeth pulled, and to get a set of dentures, which he had to get two of them since the first one made before all the wholes in his gums were closed up. That was the dentists fault, my brother was the one who paid for it. And since he is disabled, and disability checks still about two years away, he had to ask for the money.

 

[Valjean]

Why is everyone going on about healthcare costs? The point of reform is to adopt a cheaper system, one that would cost us less than we currently pay.
Why does the fact that everyone else manages to administer superior systems at half what we're currently paying not seem to register?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why is everyone going on about healthcare costs? The point of reform is to adopt a cheaper system, one that would cost us less than we currently pay.
Why does the fact that everyone else manages to administer superior systems at half what we're currently paying not seem to register?

Because all these countries you swoon over have a higher tax rate for their citizens.

 

[Falvlun]

Because all these countries you swoon over have a higher tax rate for their citizens.

And those citizens, through their higher taxes, are spending less on healthcare than we are. Personally, I'd prefer to pay higher taxes, if it meant my healthcare would be cheaper in the long run.