Reform Feminism!

[DallasApple]

and a woman could be called a feminazi just because she believes in her right to legal abortion, or just because she believes in patriarchy theory.

NO its because MEN don't get to decide the "fate of his child".That is a "men's issue" that HE should get to decide whether whoever he impregnated has the baby or not if he wants her to have the baby that's the "final decision....AND not only that if he wants her to have an abortion and she doesn't?He should get to walk off and not pay a red penny of support..THAT'S "equality"..

 

[Alceste]

1) A far greater focus on women's rights internationally - especially in third-world countries, or in countries where religious/cultural oppression marginalizes and harms women and girls.

2) A change in the underlying notions of feminism which still seems to place greater value on masculine roles and attributes than on feminine ones - i.e., a women's perceived value is higher when she embodies more traits tradictionally associated with men than with women. One example of this is how much lip service is given to women who are mothers and homemakers, but more value and validity is applied to women who choose a career instead, or primarily. Ultimately, it seems to be twisted irony of trying to make women more equal, or more valuable, by making them more like men - a position which displays an inherent view that men are more valuable.

I totally agree with your first point, but to your second, having meaningful work to do and economic independence should never have been considered a "masculine" trait in the first place. I don't hold the slightest notion that being able to pay your own way in life and challenge yourself with your work is masculine. Not do I believe caring for children or doing housework is innately feminine. We all have the capacity to do a little of both.

 

[Alceste]

Sorry where are these "feminazis?" Equating Nazism with feminism is just sad and offensive.
"Women of today are still being called upon to stretch across the gap of male
ignorance and to educate men as to our existence and our needs. This is an
old and primary tool of all oppressors to keep the oppressed occupied with
the master's concerns." - Audre Lorde

Educate yourself sometime instead of blaming feminists for why ignorant men view us as "feminazi's" that word in itself is ridiculous since feminism has nothing to do with nazism and a woman could be called a feminazi just because she believes in her right to legal abortion, or just because she believes in patriarchy theory. In fact anything she is outspoken about could arouse contentions and she be called a "feminazi."

I asked my feminist friend what a "feminazi" is supposed to be, and she had a great definition. A feminazi is any feminist a man doesn't like.

 

[Alceste]

On the one hand I agree with this(not being given lip serive is you are a FT SAHM)..on the other hand I disagree that its more like a 'man" to have a career and by that I'm talking about working for money or having an occupation beyond being mother/homemaker that helps provide.Even though traditionally yes most of the child rearing and "domestic" duties were up to the woman ...women throughout history (the majority) have always "worked" beyond kids and home.Maybe in more 'female" designated roles/jobs but they worked.They have worked in fields with babies on their backs pregnant with the next one.They have worked in sweatshops..they have been mid wives(in fact it was women who delivered each others babies)they have even been slaves right along side the men..they have been the maids ...the school teachers..hey...they have even been queens ruling over an entire kingdom.

IOW I don't see it as "more like a man" to have a job BESIDES caring for children and the home.

That's true. Women have always worked outside the home. Their choices were severely limited though and their pay was very low compared to men's pay, and after they finished work they were still expected to do all of the housework and child care and cooking for their household. They never had a moment of rest.

Oh yeah, and their income legally belonged to their husband.

 

[DallasApple]

That's true. Women have always worked outside the home. Their choices were severely limited though and their pay was very low compared to men's pay, and after they finished work they were still expected to do all of the housework and child care and cooking for their household. They never had a moment of rest.

Right even if you look at the work involved "providing" for the family in the home before modern conveniences.Hand making the clothes (seamstress) baking bread from scratch (baker) hand washing the clothes..having to collect the water or pump water out of a well..etc...

Whenever in the Christian circle someone claims that its the woman's role to stay home take care of the kids /house a.ka be the nurturer mans role is to provide.Like its just some sort of biologically driven role..I like to point out Proverbs 31.Its a mother describing what the perfect wife should be like to her son who is a king.

The wife described doesn't 'just" rear the children and take care of the home by doing housework/cooking and baby sitting.She makes linen garments and sells them /she buys a field ...it says "out of her earnings" she plants a vineyard.On top of getting up while its still dark providing food for her family and female servants..and making their clothing etc.

Even before money...women went outside and collected from the land to bring back for some to the needs of the family...

And what about all the 'working " farms..Feeding animals /cleaning stalls /collecting eggs etc..Just look at the Amish.The girls contribute to the running of the farms and they have side businesses.They makes quilts and sell them..they make baked goods to sell ..they operate roadside stands with fresh produce and eggs for sell ...etc...

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The MRA (what I have seen of it mostly) is more about anti feminism than it is about men's rights.Which has been around since the beginning.Just its easier to gather via internet and we can listen in...

Since this was my comment your quoting and the vast majority of your post...has absolutly nothing to do with what I have been posting I would like to clear a few things up.

I agree with you on the MRA of today. The original MRA actually worked with feminists (crazy right?) and I wouldn't be caught dead ever associating with the organization. I doubt you have more distain for the organization than I do.

What I mean when I said feminism could encompass more was not eloqently spoken. I should probably have said "tone change" on those issues. Or work jointly with other organizations who perhaps have time devoted to father's rights. (not the MRA. they lost their chance at working together with feminsts and its mostly mysogionistic ***** now).

So if that was a rant then more power to you. But if that was a response to my posts please don't blow a gasket jumping the gun on what you thought I meant.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I asked my feminist friend what a "feminazi" is supposed to be, and she had a great definition. A feminazi is any feminist a man doesn't like.

I like that. When I termed it Feminazi (can be a man not only women) but the more extremists of the movement. They are rare and inbetween. As a man I used to go to rallies and events but around 2005-2007 I quit going because there were women there that were not welcome or receptive to my presence at such events. They thought of men as the "enemy" rather than just the patriarical ideology. Their veiws were to push for matriarchy rather than equality. Very very few of these kind of people existed. But they were vocal enough to stop me from going to another rally till 2009 and not regularly associating with offical movements till 2011. Since then though I have not seen any of these types around. It was akin to when I went to a GLBTQ rally in Orlando and had a gang of people yell at me when they found out I was strait. 99% of the community is wonderful. I feel sorry for those so scorned that they turned to hatred. Also somewhat reminds me of the differences between Malcom X and Martin Luther King jr.

But generally yes when someone uses the term Feminazi its degrading and disrespectful at best.

 

[Slapstick]

If you could do two things to improve the feminist movement, what would those things be?

I would first start by saying not all women are created equal.
I would secondly say that women are great and deserve much credit due to the adversaries of mankind.

 

[Sunstone]

I asked my feminist friend what a "feminazi" is supposed to be, and she had a great definition. A feminazi is any feminist a man doesn't like.

Feminazi -- because feminism is so like invading Poland.

 

[Alceste]

Feminazi -- because feminism is so like invading Poland.

What with the increasing representation of the penis-less in previously phallocentric communities, we are invading "Pole-land" in a way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They should get rid of this "gender feminism" (i.e. radical feminism) nonsense that sprung up like a weed in the '60s due to them applying Marxist theory to sexism and oppression. Just as Marxism has its hated capitalist class, so radfems have their hated patriarchal class, which seems to include men as a whole. Anti-racist groups have made the same mistake by applying Marxist theory to racism and so making "the enemy" white people as a class.

I really, truly despise radical feminism. It is just causing more problems and division and does not lead to greater understanding and healing. We need to focus on practical, inclusive solutions to discrimination and oppression. When you make males out to be the enemy, you're not going to get anywhere. You just alienate potential allies. All that '60s and '70s bunk is a bunch of failed garbage. 3rd wave feminism attempted to address the failures of it, but it has its own serious problems as well. The only way feminism is going to be saved is by remembering its roots and looking more towards people like Susan B. Anthony and not Steinem and loons like Dworkin.

I'm quite disappointed in modern leftism in general, as a far leftist myself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Feminist movment should broaden its reach to be more incuslive. They should fight for men's rights as well. In fact it could even change the name from Feminist to equalist.

Good point. A name change is a good idea.

 

[dust1n]

If you could do two things to improve the feminist movement, what would those things be?

None and none, mostly because the notion is meaningless, and secondly, anything in need of "reform within feminism" is already hotly contested and has been been addressed within feminism.

 

[freethinker44]

None and none, mostly because the notion is meaningless, and secondly, anything in need of "reform within feminism" is already hotly contested and has been been addressed within feminism.

So feminism is perfect?

 

[dust1n]

So feminism is perfect?

Of course not... the notion is meaningless.

 

[freethinker44]

Of course not... the notion is meaningless.

Which notion, feminism, reform, or perfection?

 

[dust1n]

Which notion, feminism, reform, or perfection?

Feminism and reform by themselves are perfectly fine. Together, they don't make sense. And perfection is a meaningless concept.

 

[freethinker44]

Feminism and reform by themselves are perfectly fine. Together, they don't make sense. And perfection is a meaningless concept.

Why don't they make sense?

 

[dust1n]

Why don't they make sense?

You can reform government, or a section of a company, because there is an actual code in affect that can be changed to provide different outcomes. There is something there to change.

However, you can't reform existentialism because there is no defining set of rules about anything. Existentialism, like feminism, reflect a numerous load of ideas, many of which are already contested within those respected philosophical branch. Every feminist, like every existentialist, like every anarchist, or like anyone who falls under any particular branch of thought is a church unto themselves... they are collections of ideas from the individuals in those branches. You can't "reform" feminism because no one is the decider for what is and is not appropriate.

 

[freethinker44]

You can't "reform" feminism because no one is the decider for what is and is not appropriate.

I'm going to hold you to this.

I've quoted feminists who said derogatory and hateful things about men and then was told they're not true feminists because feminism isn't like that. It's the old "no true Scotsman" argument, clearly at odds with what you just said, but I'll bring this up in the future.