Reform/Liberal Messianic Judaism?

[Mind_Zenith]

I've always wondered, are there any Reform or Progressive Messianic Jewish Groups, like that accept gays or whatever?

I know there's some that believe that the law of Moses is no longer viable, because of either Yeshua or because they have a similar view to Reform Jews.

Anyone know of any orgs or websites for "Reform" MJ's, if there are any?

Thanks for the help! :jester5:
Pease,
-Zenith

 

[Zardoz]

I've always wondered, are there any Reform or Progressive Messianic Jewish Groups, like that accept gays or whatever?

OK, a bit of an overview first. Reform is branch of Judaism, not necessarily the same as Progressive. While it's true that Reform is seen as Progressive, some individual communities can be rather conservative/traditional. I should know, I'm affiliated with one. So, each Reform and/or Messianic communities are like individuals, with wide variation in 'political' (for lack of a better term) identity. 'Accepting gays or whatever'... of course Reform and Messianic groups accept gays (assuming you mean Jewish Gays).

I know there's some that believe that the law of Moses is no longer viable, because of either Yeshua or because they have a similar view to Reform Jews.

AFAIK, no Jewish groups (even Humanistic Judaism) think the 'law of Moses is no longer viable'. Torah is the heart and soul of the Jew. The key is how one interprets the law and applies it in one's life. Now, I am not an expert on gays but I do know that Torah law does not condemn gays per se but specific homosexual sexual acts. Therefore I would not automatically assume a Gay Jew was in violation of these specific laws just because the person is gay. Yes, it is a bit of a 'Don't ask/Don't tell' mindset, but everyone has their own problems it's their place to come to terms with these issues, not mine.

Yeshua by his own words tells us 'not one dot if an i' is to be removed from the Torah so no, these laws would not be considered 'no longer viable' by his teachings.

 

[Mind_Zenith]

Just a note:
By "gay", I meant all of what it means to be homosexual: not just having feelings to people of the same sex, but actually being able to act on such if one so desires. I should have said "homosexual", my bad lol.

Also, by "Liberal", "Reform" and "Progressive", I was not referring to the denominations, but

You may want to note that I have about as much knowledge about the Torah and other facets of Judaism and Christianity as much as I do quantum chemistry. I mean, it's probably not rocket surgery, but I never even set my eyes on a Bible :drool:

My "Progressive Jewish" friend I've got here says he doesn't believe the Torah to be entirely applicable in this day, with many of the laws being due to personal cleanness or health, including the laws against homosexual intercourse. He also doesn't like that you indicated homosexuality was a "problem", but this is my account, not his :bounce

Blessings to you

 

[wjr0184]

I've always wondered, are there any Reform or Progressive Messianic Jewish Groups, like that accept gays or whatever?

I know there's some that believe that the law of Moses is no longer viable, because of either Yeshua or because they have a similar view to Reform Jews.

Anyone know of any orgs or websites for "Reform" MJ's, if there are any?

Thanks for the help! :jester5:
Pease,
-Zenith

I know this is an old thread, so I'm not sure if anyone involved is still interested in the topic. Though I dislike the term "Messianic Jew" for several reasons, I am a Christian who believes wholeheartedly in the Jewishness of Jesus and his disciples. The disciples remained active in the Jewish faith long after the Resurrection of Jesus. It wasn't until Constantine became leader of the Roman Empire that the Church SERIOUSLY began to identify herself as seperate from Judaism. I recently started celebrating Shabbat and Jewish holidays, but I have no desire to call myself a Messianic Jew. For one thing, my heritage is not Jewish because my mother is not of Jewish extraction. Secondly, current and former leaders in all the main branches of Judaism deny that Christ was the Messiah foretold by the Prophets in the Old Testament. Thirdly, I am openly gay and sexually active and most MJ's are against gay sex.

Many Jews are reminded of how they have been persecuted at the hands of so-called Christians over the years and are wary of believers in Jesus adding "Jew" to their name. I am sensitive to their feelings on the subject, but at the same time I want to learn more about Jesus by observing the feasts and customs that he himself would have observed. I too would like to know if there are any groups out there who see things from a more progressive and inclusive standpoint.

 

[Zardoz]

I know this is an old thread, so I'm not sure if anyone involved is still interested in the topic.

Welcome to RF! Shalom!

I'm still interested, and as I'm the only active MJ here, I will answer as best I can.

... but I have no desire to call myself a Messianic Jew.

Commendable. You are grafted onto the branch of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; you do not need to pretend you are a Jew, you're just fine the way you are. Not that you couldn't become a Jew by formal conversion if you felt that was your calling, but it's not mandatory to being a good person and in relationship with our G-d.

FYI: I am self-labeled a MJ but I am not a Christian; I follow the teachings of Yeshua but do not feel the need to follow the Christian faith, which AFAIK is based on the teachings of Paul. Not that Christianity is bad, it's just not for Jews, I see it as a valid path to G-d so I can support fellowship with Christians (and Muslims too!)without being one.

Thirdly, I am openly gay and sexually active and most MJ's are against gay sex.

I'm certainly not against gays. One particular form of gay sex is prohibited in the Torah, using the same term as is used to prohibit eating shellfish. For pretty much the same reason I believe, in that it's dangerous. I don't consider it a 'sin' and just as lobster can be prepared safely, so can this particular sexual act be done safely. Personally, I don't do either, I keep Kosher and also do not perform the equivalent heterosexual sexual act with my wife. That does not mean I call people who do either 'sinful'. I just pray they do things safely.

I've been out of mainstream MJ communities for a long time, as I said earlier in this thread there may be progressive MJ groups, I don't know, each group is unique.

Hope this helps, and Shalom.

 

[wjr0184]

Shalom to you! Thanks for the reply. I believe I know the particular sex act mentioned in the Torah that you are referring to and I do agree that it can be dangerous.

If you don't mind my asking, why aren't you involved with a Messianic Jewish synagogue? I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you are affiliated with a Reform group. How do the people there feel about your believing in Yeshua as Messiah? Do you talk about it? I attended Shabbat services at a Reform temple as a Sophomore in college for extra credit in a religion class I was taking. I remember a lady coming up to me after the service and telling me that she was a Messianic. I had no idea what that meant at the time, but she went on to tell me that she was a believer in Jesus and that she felt that observance of the Torah and Jewish feasts made her feel closer to God. Obviously, the people at that temple were comfortable with her worshipping there. As I'm reading online, I'm learning that most Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative Jews are very uncomfortable with people who call themselves Messianic. I even read about a group called "Jews for Judaism" that was basically created to discredit people who claimed to be Messianic. Apparently there are small pockets of people involved in the "main-line" Jewish groups who are comfortable with Messianics worshipping in their synagogues and temples. What is your take on all of this?

 

[Zardoz]

...If you don't mind my asking, why aren't you involved with a Messianic Jewish synagogue?...

I was an Elder at an MJ Synagogue for quite a while, but the more I was in the 'inner circle' the more it was apparent to me that many of the 'leaders' were not honest like you are, and merely pretended to be Jewish. The final straw came when they insisted that I drop membership at the Orthodox shul (family shul, not close by me) and the Reform shul! The Chutzpah! I was fairly disillusioned before that, so I refused and walked. I seriously re-evaluated my beliefs, and became the MJ that I am now. That was a long time ago.

I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you are affiliated with a Reform group. How do the people there feel about your believing in Yeshua as Messiah? Do you talk about it?

My Rabbi knows, but nobody else. He put me on the Outreach committee, figuring I understood converts and mixed-belief people better than most, so I guess he trusts me.

...As I'm reading online, I'm learning that most Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative Jews are very uncomfortable with people who call themselves Messianic. I even read about a group called "Jews for Judaism" that was basically created to discredit people who claimed to be Messianic... What is your take on all of this?

You can 'thank' groups like 'Jews 4 Jesus' (who are not nice people at all actually) for these problems and backlash. It's proselytizing that causes so much grief. Plus as I've said people who are dishonest. It would be better if only Jews called themselves 'Messianic Jews' and non-Jews called themselves 'Hebrew Christians' (I've known quite a few... nice folk).

 

[wjr0184]

I think we see these things from a similar perspective. The term Hebrew Christian just makes better sense to me. It looks like a lot of people have dropped that label and taken on the name "Messianic Jew" not really thinking about the implications of the name. How do you feel about Christians who celebrate Shabbat and the other Jewish festivals and holy days? Do you see that as offensive? It just fascinates me to know that the disciples continued to worship in the Jewish tradition for many years after the resurrection. It seems to me that all evidence of that has been "swept under" the proverbial rug.

 

[Zardoz]

... How do you feel about Christians who celebrate Shabbat and the other Jewish festivals and holy days? Do you see that as offensive? ...

My Reform Temple has local Church groups come and celebrate Shabbat and the holidays and festivals with us all the time, and it's good to share these IMO. Shabbat, well, that's a bit more complicated topic. Non-Jews are not supposed to observe Shabbat exactly like a Jew, but most don't anyways, so it's OK.

Actually, there is a current thread on just this topic, but it's getting a bit too much like a debate (which is not allowed in the D.I.R. forums) and I won't be posting on it again:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-gentiles-assume-they-should.html#post2233866

...It just fascinates me to know that the disciples continued to worship in the Jewish tradition for many years after the resurrection. It seems to me that all evidence of that has been "swept under" the proverbial rug.

Actually, there were groups of Jewish followers of Yeshua who maintained their Jewish worship until well into the fourth century. The Roman Christians at the time thought they were heretics and persecuted them.

FYI: I don't post on Shabbat so I will return afterward. Shalom

 

[Gruffudd]

I know this is an old thread, so I'm not sure if anyone involved is still interested in the topic. Though I dislike the term "Messianic Jew" for several reasons, I am a Christian who believes wholeheartedly in the Jewishness of Jesus and his disciples. The disciples remained active in the Jewish faith long after the Resurrection of Jesus. It wasn't until Constantine became leader of the Roman Empire that the Church SERIOUSLY began to identify herself as seperate from Judaism. I recently started celebrating Shabbat and Jewish holidays, but I have no desire to call myself a Messianic Jew. For one thing, my heritage is not Jewish because my mother is not of Jewish extraction

I'm still very much interested in this topic. I joined to reply! What you've said above pretty well describes where I am. I don't have anything very intelligent to offer and I realise you posted a good couple of months back, but I wanted to say, you're not alone.

Have you come across Claude Montefiore? He was one of the founders of Liberal Judaism - the UK equivalent of US Reform Judaism. He's quite interesting for a sympathetic progressive Jewish take on Yeshu'a and Paul.

 

[Zardoz]

I'm still very much interested in this topic. I joined to reply!

Welcome to RF!

What you've said above pretty well describes where I am. I don't have anything very intelligent to offer and I realise you posted a good couple of months back, but I wanted to say, you're not alone.

Don't say you have nothing to offer, everyone has something to offer even if it's just a question. A good question is better than fine gold. Feel free to ask.

Have you come across Claude Montefiore? He was one of the founders of Liberal Judaism - the UK equivalent of US Reform Judaism. He's quite interesting for a sympathetic progressive Jewish take on Yeshu'a and Paul.

No I have not, thanks for the info.
Shalom

 

[Gruffudd]

Welcome to RF!

Many thanks for the welcome.

Don't say you have nothing to offer, everyone has something to offer even if it's just a question. A good question is better than fine gold. Feel free to ask.

I do have a question although it might not be a particularly good one. You mentioned back at the start of the thread that you were involved with a Reform community. How comfortable are they with your following Yeshua? My impression is that most Jewish communities - even progressive ones - like to keep clear blue water between Christianity and themselves.

 

[Zardoz]

I do have a question although it might not be a particularly good one. You mentioned back at the start of the thread that you were involved with a Reform community. How comfortable are they with your following Yeshua? My impression is that most Jewish communities - even progressive ones - like to keep clear blue water between Christianity and themselves.

As I said, (maybe on this thread, maybe another one) the Rabbi knows about me, and promptly put me on the Outreach committee. I guess he figured 'it takes one to know one'. No one else there knows about me, and quite frankly, has any reason to know. Judaism is not a faith that is centered on belief but rather actions. We have had MJ people come to our temple, and for most members, so long as they don't proselytize or otherwise start talking about 'jesus' nobody is going to object. I mean, a lot of people believe in all kinds of things, but if they're not 'in your face' about it, then 'live and let live' most Jews say...

 

[Gruffudd]

As I said, (maybe on this thread, maybe another one) the Rabbi knows about me, and promptly put me on the Outreach committee. I guess he figured 'it takes one to know one'. No one else there knows about me, and quite frankly, has any reason to know. Judaism is not a faith that is centered on belief but rather actions. We have had MJ people come to our temple, and for most members, so long as they don't proselytize or otherwise start talking about 'jesus' nobody is going to object. I mean, a lot of people believe in all kinds of things, but if they're not 'in your face' about it, then 'live and let live' most Jews say...

Todah rabah. That was very informative.

 

[dantech]

As I said, (maybe on this thread, maybe another one) the Rabbi knows about me, and promptly put me on the Outreach committee. I guess he figured 'it takes one to know one'. No one else there knows about me, and quite frankly, has any reason to know. Judaism is not a faith that is centered on belief but rather actions. We have had MJ people come to our temple, and for most members, so long as they don't proselytize or otherwise start talking about 'jesus' nobody is going to object. I mean, a lot of people believe in all kinds of things, but if they're not 'in your face' about it, then 'live and let live' most Jews say...

I am sorry! I really do not wish to disrespect you, and hope you will not take this as offensive or insulting as it is definitely not my intent. Instead I am simply trying to impart some wisdom.

Judaism is definitely a faith centered on belief. This does not mean that you cold believe in G-D and then go murder someone. This simply means that by whole-heartily loving G-D and believing in him, you will ultimately accomplish the actions he wants you to accomplish.

With that being said, I would like to know, if you don't mind, where your stand on Judaism is. What do you do, what don't you do.

I am an orthodox Jew and would like to understand what your beliefs are. Do you believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah? Son of G-D? Died to repent our sins?

Thank you, and please don't take this post as offensive as i know a lot of people tend to on the net.

 

[Zardoz]

I am sorry! I really do not wish to disrespect you, and hope you will not take this as offensive or insulting as it is definitely not my intent. Instead I am simply trying to impart some wisdom.

Judaism is definitely a faith centered on belief. This does not mean that you cold believe in G-D and then go murder someone. This simply means that by whole-heartily loving G-D and believing in him, you will ultimately accomplish the actions he wants you to accomplish.

Shalom and welcome to RF! I don't take any insult, as I'm the one who is outside the norm the onus is on me to explain myself. Yes, what you say is true, but when I say based on actions, it's to contrast us from Xianity, which is a faith-centered view, where one is 'saved' by a declaration of faith, alone. Whereas we Jews follow the view that one displays one's faith in actions and performing mitzvot. Now, both groups should ideally arrive at the same place, but for us truly 'Faith without works is dead'. (James 2:14)

With that being said, I would like to know, if you don't mind, where your stand on Judaism is. What do you do, what don't you do.

I am a Sephandic Jew who takes Mitzvot seriously. However, as I've come to realize, many of us observe in ways that are odd to European Ashkenazim. We may be very strict in some regards, yet very moderate and almost Reform in other ways. Conversely, I find some things in the Ashkenaz minhag impossible to understand, like the same heavy dark clothes no matter the season, and the strange pursuit of 'Glat Kosher', one-up-manship to out-Jew the neighbor. But I stray. Let's just say... it's complicated.

I am an orthodox Jew and would like to understand what your beliefs are. Do you believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah? Son of G-D? Died to repent our sins?

Yeshua was Messiah ben Yosef. I still wait for Messiah ben David like any other Jew.

Physical son? Of course not, I don't. I'm not a Trinitrarian. I have the same Shema as any other Jew. One.

Died for sins? That's Messiah ben Yosef. He was such. We are such. We, in Galut Edom are also Messiah Ben Yosef, as Yeshua began this Age. Very much the theme of Isaiah 53... "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed"

Thank you, and please don't take this post as offensive as i know a lot of people tend to on the net.

Not at all. I hope I answered some concerns, but feel free to ask if I didn't

Shalom

 

[Zardoz]

Oh, BTW, I don't post on Shabbat and I doubt I will get on tomorrow so it may be a while before I can reply.

 

[dantech]

Shalom and welcome to RF! I don't take any insult, as I'm the one who is outside the norm the onus is on me to explain myself. Yes, what you say is true, but when I say based on actions, it's to contrast us from Xianity, which is a faith-centered view, where one is 'saved' by a declaration of faith, alone. Whereas we Jews follow the view that one displays one's faith in actions and performing mitzvot. Now, both groups should ideally arrive at the same place, but for us truly 'Faith without works is dead'. (James 2:14)

Agreed

I am a Sephandic Jew who takes Mitzvot seriously. However, as I've come to realize, many of us observe in ways that are odd to European Ashkenazim. We may be very strict in some regards, yet very moderate and almost Reform in other ways. Conversely, I find some things in the Ashkenaz minhag impossible to understand, like the same heavy dark clothes no matter the season, and the strange pursuit of 'Glat Kosher', one-up-manship to out-Jew the neighbor. But I stray. Let's just say... it's complicated.

Well, I am also Sepharadic. We do take Mitzvot seriously. But I think you were misinformed about some things, with all due respect.
Sepharadic Halakha is stricter then that of Ashkenazim. In Kosher, Ashkenazim eat Glatt, as you said. We Sepharadics, if doing things as they are supposed to be done, should only be eating Bet Yossef(highest grade of kosher meat possible.).
It is true that humans in general have this competetive nature and might try to be out-Jewing their neighbors, as you said. However, out-jewing someone isn't necessarily a bad thing. If your son was trying to out-do everyone in his math class simply to be the best in the class rather than understand math and know it's importance for later, you would be proud of him.. wouldn't you? It is learned that from Learning Torah and applying it for the wrong reasons will result in its application for the right reasons.


Yeshua was Messiah ben Yosef. I still wait for Messiah ben David like any other Jew.

Here, we disagree. It is said that Messiah ben David will be a war leader that will pave the way for Messiah ben David. Some say he will die, some say he won't. If he does die, Messiah ben David will revive him. One thing all opinions are sure of is that Messiah ben David will come within a year, at most, of when Messiah ben Yossef died. Which is not the case for Jesus.

Physical son? Of course not, I don't. I'm not a Trinitrarian. I have the same Shema as any other Jew. One.
Most important aspect of our religion right here, the One part!

Died for sins? That's Messiah ben Yosef. He was such. We are such. We, in Galut Edom are also Messiah Ben Yosef, as Yeshua began this Age. Very much the theme of Isaiah 53... "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed"

I already wrote what i think about this above.

Not at all. I hope I answered some concerns, but feel free to ask if I didn't

You did, but I would like to see what you think of my thoughts.

Shalom

Shabbat Shalom! It is not Shabbat here in montreal for another 10 hours!

 

[hodu]

Welcome to RF! Shalom!

I'm still interested, and as I'm the only active MJ here, I will answer as best I can.

Commendable. You are grafted onto the branch of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; you do not need to pretend you are a Jew, you're just fine the way you are. Not that you couldn't become a Jew by formal conversion if you felt that was your calling, but it's not mandatory to being a good person and in relationship with our G-d.

FYI: I am self-labeled a MJ but I am not a Christian; I follow the teachings of Yeshua but do not feel the need to follow the Christian faith, which AFAIK is based on the teachings of Paul. Not that Christianity is bad, it's just not for Jews, I see it as a valid path to G-d so I can support fellowship with Christians (and Muslims too!)without being one.



I'm certainly not against gays. One particular form of gay sex is prohibited in the Torah, using the same term as is used to prohibit eating shellfish. For pretty much the same reason I believe, in that it's dangerous. I don't consider it a 'sin' and just as lobster can be prepared safely, so can this particular sexual act be done safely. Personally, I don't do either, I keep Kosher and also do not perform the equivalent heterosexual sexual act with my wife. That does not mean I call people who do either 'sinful'. I just pray they do things safely.

I've been out of mainstream MJ communities for a long time, as I said earlier in this thread there may be progressive MJ groups, I don't know, each group is unique.

Hope this helps, and Shalom.

I don't know how active this subforum is, I've literally just signed up a few minutes ago. But good for you!!! I, too, do not follow christianity, I don't call myself christian, the only thing about christianity that I agree with is that Yeshua was/is the promised One to come.
So, I guess you've now got one more Messianic Judaism person here.

 

[Zardoz]

Here, we disagree. It is said that Messiah ben David will be a war leader that will pave the way for Messiah ben David. Some say he will die, some say he won't. If he does die, Messiah ben David will revive him. One thing all opinions are sure of is that Messiah ben David will come within a year, at most, of when Messiah ben Yossef died. Which is not the case for Jesus.

Well, I know what the text says of course, and setting aside Yeshua's promise to return, etc. the important thing is that the Age of Messiah ben Yosef, which is Galut Edom, began with Yeshua. We live in it, we are the embodiment of it at this time, we Jews are Messiah ben Yosef in the world now. Also, a point is I don't see Yeshua as Messiah ben David. But... who knows the future? Just as the Age of Messiah ben Yosef will lead to the Age of Messiah ben David, one leads to the other.

So, what I know is that I don't know what will be, I know what is.

Shalom