• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reforming the educational system

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
As I am writing a book on the rethinking of education, in particular the essential elementary school period, I figured it might be interesting to see what others think about this subject.

So, if you were to completely redo the educational system from scratch, how would you do it and what changes would you make?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I'm sure the educational system is quite different in Norway than in America, Britain, or India. I do think it is useful to look at other cultures, and how they teach, what works, etc., to improve on any given system. I'm in Canada and taught for some time, noticed a lot of changes, one primary one being the shift from teacher-centered to student centered, with the role of teacher becoming facilitator.

Personally, I would welcome a less intellectual approach, with more practical and ethical stuff introduced at a much younger age.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I'm sure the educational system is quite different in Norway than in America, Britain, or India. I do think it is useful to look at other cultures, and how they teach, what works, etc., to improve on any given system. I'm in Canada and taught for some time, noticed a lot of changes, one primary one being the shift from teacher-centered to student centered, with the role of teacher becoming facilitator.

Sure, new ideas are always welcome, but I mostly wish for an approach more in line with what psychology and neuropsychology tells us about learning and memory.

Personally, I would welcome a less intellectual approach, with more practical and ethical stuff introduced at a much younger age.

In Norway we use philosophy in class from a very early age (second grade) and class-discussions about ethical topics are not only common, they are a part of the curriculum all through elementary school.
I agree that more practical stuff would be welcome, but few schools and educational systems are willing to make the effort and pay the cost of doing it right, so it is often half-hearted and poorly implemented.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
One word!

school_punishment02.jpg

 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Make sure that logic is taught starting in 1st grade. At least that A is A.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
First I would add enrichment programs, foreign language classes (probably Spanish, as it would enable more kids to become adults who can effectively communicate with a sizable portion of the American population), and while there would be physical education, sports would not be emphasized.
Education standards would be elevated, as would the requirements to be a teacher. Teacher pay and benefits would increase, and teachers, not a committee, would be the ones deciding what happens and goes on in their school. And there would be more aids and assistants helping teachers. Science would be the only thing allowed to be taught in a science class, while education in religious ideas would remain in English, history, and philosophy classes.
All day kindergarten would become the norm, the amount of home work would be increased, and there would be a very strong emphasis on math and reading, making sure as many students as possible are proficient in their grade appropriate level before being moved on to a higher level. Text books would also be changed from their typical mile wide-inch deep approach on a subject, to having only a few subjects taught per section to allow for the subject to be covered in-depth.
Diversity would also become a subject of discussion, and students would be introduced to different types of people, different countries, different cultures, and different ways of thinking.
Sex education would become mandatory, starting about no later than fourth grade. It would start out as mostly an introduction to puberty, and the changes students can expect to go through (and what some would already be going through), and would progress up to full sex education, including pregnancy, STI's, birth control, peer pressure, consent, and so on.
Peer pressure would also be emphasized, and bullying would not be tolerated. And no student would ever get in trouble for standing up to their bullies.
I'm sure I can think of more, but I think that would be a good start. Oh, and never again allow someone who designs prisons to design a school, and serve only nutritious and healthy foods and drinks to students. I would also abandon the industrial model of education, and replace it with a model that nurtures creativity, stimulates the mind, and create an environment that students look forward to coming to.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Make sure that logic is taught starting in 1st grade. At least that A is A.

Here's the problem with logic: logic is like math, and in fact, there is a lot of logic embedded in math. But what people either fail to see, or do not want to see, is that logic is like math in a different way. And that is that when your answer is wrong, it is irrevocably definitely and without question, wrong.
Logic is cold, hard and merciless towards ideas and arguments, and when applied correctly, it can and will almost certainly destroy some of those ideas and arguments. People use the term 'it's logical' all the time without really knowing how logic works. And one of the most important parts of how it works is the following; while a logical argument/concept does not have to be correct (due to lack of information and faulty premises), an illogical argument/concept is ALWAYS wrong.

So, yeah, let's teach people logic from an early age.
In Norway, it is a part of the philosophy curriculum that is supposed to start in second grade, although this is a fairly recent development.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
satan.jpg


I'm sorry I'm sorry xD I couldn't resist.

My only suggestion is a heavier focus on reading comprehension, the arts, and the physical sciences (as opposed to earth sciences and life sciences).

But I don't know what schools are like where you live :shrug: But those seemed to be lacking when I went to Public school.... well, they had good classes for Newtonian physics and chemistry, but not everyone took those. As well in my last two years in public school (I went into homeschooling and private school after that) the entire State started a huge literacy initiative getting off it's feet and severely it beefed up the curriculum by adding an entire new class specifically for reading comprehension state wide. But hey, that's in America lol :help:
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
First I would add enrichment programs, foreign language classes (probably Spanish, as it would enable more kids to become adults who can effectively communicate with a sizable portion of the American population), and while there would be physical education, sports would not be emphasized.
Education standards would be elevated, as would the requirements to be a teacher. Teacher pay and benefits would increase, and teachers, not a committee, would be the ones deciding what happens and goes on in their school. And there would be more aids and assistants helping teachers. Science would be the only thing allowed to be taught in a science class, while education in religious ideas would remain in English, history, and philosophy classes.
All day kindergarten would become the norm, the amount of home work would be increased, and there would be a very strong emphasis on math and reading, making sure as many students as possible are proficient in their grade appropriate level before being moved on to a higher level. Text books would also be changed from their typical mile wide-inch deep approach on a subject, to having only a few subjects taught per section to allow for the subject to be covered in-depth.
Diversity would also become a subject of discussion, and students would be introduced to different types of people, different countries, different cultures, and different ways of thinking.
Sex education would become mandatory, starting about no later than fourth grade. It would start out as mostly an introduction to puberty, and the changes students can expect to go through (and what some would already be going through), and would progress up to full sex education, including pregnancy, STI's, birth control, peer pressure, consent, and so on.
Peer pressure would also be emphasized, and bullying would not be tolerated. And no student would ever get in trouble for standing up to their bullies.
I'm sure I can think of more, but I think that would be a good start. Oh, and never again allow someone who designs prisons to design a school, and serve only nutritious and healthy foods and drinks to students. I would also abandon the industrial model of education, and replace it with a model that nurtures creativity, stimulates the mind, and create an environment that students look forward to coming to.

I do not necessarily disagree with any of the above, but I do have one problem with it; it is basically a list of goals without much substance as to how to achieve those goals.
Everyone wants kids to be smarter, safer, healthier and better, but very few people have good ideas as to how to achieve this.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
satan.jpg


I'm sorry I'm sorry xD I couldn't resist.

My only suggestion is a heavier focus on reading comprehension, the arts, and the physical sciences (as opposed to earth sciences and life sciences).

But I don't know what schools are like where you live :shrug: But those seemed to be lacking when I went to Public school.... well, they had good classes for Newtonian physics and chemistry, but not everyone took those. As well in my last two years in public school (I went into homeschooling and private school after that) the entire State started a huge literacy initiative getting off it's feet and severely it beefed up the curriculum by adding an entire new class specifically for reading comprehension state wide. But hey, that's in America lol :help:

Reading comprehension is, I would think, a major focus everywhere (and if it isn't, then it really should be), and it most certainly is in Norway.
I'm not to keen on 'national' or 'cultural' ideas about education. I'm mostly just interested in what works. Minds are minds, and what works in one country should work equally well in a different country.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Reading comprehension is, I would think, a major focus everywhere (and if it isn't, then it really should be), and it most certainly is in Norway.
I'm not to keen on 'national' or 'cultural' ideas about education. I'm mostly just interested in what works. Minds are minds, and what works in one country should work equally well in a different country.

Heavier was the key word. Heavier reading comprehension can never hurt, even it it's already heavy I guess.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
OK, I'm back, and my glass is full. This is based on my experience as a music student and a music teacher, so not directly related to public education, but some of the same criticisms and the solutions I am developing can cross over easily enough.

First, the criticism:

My musical education was classical piano. Although they were private lessons, it was a "one size fits all" method, with specific books, specific repertoire, specific technical exercises, exams, competitions and an annual grading / graduating system. So, like school basically.

My major criticism with this method was that I never learned to play the damn piano. I could only memorize complex sheet music and regurgitate it on demand. One day, I brought a simple composition of my own to my piano teacher and she had NO IDEA how to handle it. It was as though it had never happened to her before. She just brushed it under the rug and got on with her "one size fits all" agenda. Soon after that, I quit, because classical music is boring when you're 13. I took up guitar, and shunned training altogether. After one lesson from my dad, I figured it out on my own, refused to take any guidance from anyone, and never played anything I hadn't written myself. I make my living as a musician now - I play fiddle, guitar, mandolin, percussion, ukulele, sing, and teach, and I STILL can't play the damn piano, because of my classical training.

What I'm trying to get at is that too often, with a "one size fits all" approach to education, we miss our opportunities to nourish the individual talents and interests of any given student, and to encourage them in their own exploration of the areas that interest them. We also reject our opportunity to learn something from them, and deny them the pleasure of sharing their discoveries. For example, it was a seven year old guitar student who made me realize that the Alphabet song, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and Baa, Baa Black Sheep are actually all the same song. That will seem like a complete no-brainer to anybody who has ever noticed it before, but I had never noticed it before, so I was floored.

But I digress!

Kids love discovery. We shouldn't assume that we need to imprint a specific volume of specific information on their little brains in a specific way. We should simply guide and mentor them as they discover it themselves. Some kids really do want to learn to play Chopin, but most just want to learn to play Someone Like You, and who am I to refuse them? Who am I to make them suffer through memorizing hundreds of stupid, boring little melodies they don't give a toss about before I give them what they came for?

So what am I doing about it?

Every time a new student comes to me, I ask them why they came. What kind of music do they like to listen to? Who is their favourite artist? What's their favourite song? I just talk to them until I get some sense of where their sweet spot might lie - whatever little string I can pluck that makes them excited to discover music on their own. Then I pluck the heck out of that string. I go learn whatever they want to learn (that takes me about ten minutes) and start teaching it (or a simplified version of it) to them the following week.

Of course, some of them won't talk, or they don't give a toss about music and their parents are making them come, so I just get those doing stuff right away, and no matter what they do, I tell them it's great. In some cases, I do end up choosing "the book", because some kids respond to that - they get their sense of achievement from flipping a page, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they are excited about it.

Is it hard to teach this way?

Yes! There's nothing easier for a teacher than to teach the same crap to everybody who walks through the door. I throw up a little bit into my mouth every time I have to learn another Taylor Swift song on my own time, just to get some teenage girl excited about playing the guitar. But my job is to teach them how to become musicians. I simply can not do that unless they work hard, and if I don't tie a carrot to the stick for them, they just won't.

I once filled in for another teacher who uses the "one size fits all" approach, and the parents of one of her students told me the following week, in awe, "I don't know what you did, but she actually practiced all week!" They just couldn't believe it. She'd been taking lessons for two years, and never bothered to touch a piano on her own time.

Does it work?

I don't know! :D Sometimes yes, sometimes no. My feeling is that it works extremely well on kids who love music, and does not work on the kids who don't give a toss about music. In some cases, I simply can not find that magic string that I can pluck, so they will not work, so will not advance. In those cases, although I'd love to just keep taking their parents' money despite the fact that I am failing to impart a musical education, I will usually let them know that their kid might rather be exploring some other activity, at least for the time being.

What does any of this have to do with public education?

Nothing, and everything. Our current system is set up to imprint every child with a fixed set of information and skills, regardless of their unique interests and abilities. An ideal system would change the relationship between the teacher and the taught, making it more of a two-way street. The child would have a lot more say into what they want to learn and how they want to learn it, and the basic skills we all need (reading, writing, math, science) would be worked into that process. The teacher would become a mentor, nudging the child toward culturally accepted norms of competence in any given field and helping them avoid the pitfalls.

Of course, we would need a lot more teachers for this system to work. You can't give any individual mentoring to a class of 35 kids, all by yourself. You could, on the other hand, bring in working professionals from any given field (on a voluntary basis, or with an honorarium) to mentor a small group of kids with an interest in that particular field. That would be a small, cheap and manageable change in the right direction. :)
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
OK, I'm back, and my glass is full. This is based on my experience as a music student and a music teacher, so not directly related to public education, but some of the same criticisms and the solutions I am developing can cross over easily enough.

Wow!
That was quite a post.
I agree with everything you've said above and it closely mirrors the approach I use myself in the classroom. :)
I would have offered you a teaching position on the spot merely based on the experiences and methods you've employed.

I'm currently working on a system (that will, in due time, be presented in the form of a book) in which the pupils themselves are mainly in control of their progress within the core subjects, and are more able to pursue the areas they find interesting, all the while ensuring that the pupils know the preceding stages well enough before moving on.
I would like to see smaller classes (20 pupils per class), more time for the teacher to work with each pupil and adapt their curriculum, more use of digital media, more use of practical assignments and projects, and more pupil to pupil interaction. Classes would be maintained for social purposes, but the curriculum could be very different from pupil to pupil.
If you are interested I can give a brief outline of how this can be achieved, but it will take me a while to summarize it, so I'll only do so if there is an actual interest for it. ;)

Personally I think we need to completely reevaluate the way we do education from the ground up and use the latest nevropsycological data and statistical material to design methods that better fit with how learning and memory actually work, as well as maintaining the interest to learn as something valuable in and of itself.
The system we currently use is archaic and was perchance a decent fit during the Industrial Revolution, but times have changed, and so has the demands on the educational system.
 
Last edited:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I do not necessarily disagree with any of the above, but I do have one problem with it; it is basically a list of goals without much substance as to how to achieve those goals.
Everyone wants kids to be smarter, safer, healthier and better, but very few people have good ideas as to how to achieve this.
Some ways to achieve them, one is overhaul the format of text books, so they have a more indepth approach to a topic rather than what is simple too much information to have even a good look at a subject. Even in college, my world history book covers from the earliest civilizations up to 1650 CE, and the book is not much over 300 pages long. Needless to say, after you read a chapter you feel like you know very little about the civilizations or cultures that was covered.
The ciriculum for teachers to become teachers needs to be more advanced, and they should all be made to have at least a masters degree.
Schools also need more funding, but the government building a few less bombs and war machines would easily help many schools. As well as schools also need to be more responsible with their money, and stop choking multiple departments so the sports teams can have more than what they need (such as letting players have regular jerseys instead of fancy and flashy looking ones.)
And then keeping religious morality out of what should be a secular institute really isn't that hard, and by doing so you open the doors for proper sex ed, keeping religious mythos out of science classes, and so on. This also enables teachers to teach about people and ways of life that may be controversial, even if they shouldn't such as teaching a child about Middle Easterners and Islam in a way that doesn't demonize them, or that some people love someone that is the same sex as them without fear that some parent will get offended because they have a narrow world-view.
The Teachers Union also needs to have a check and balance against them, that way schools can actually fire bad teachers without having the teachers union coming after them.

 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The system we currently use if archaic and was perchance a decent fit during the Industrial Revolution, but times have changed, and so has the demands on the educational system.

Yes, indeed. I've been out of the classroom now for 4 years, but much of what has been said here is being implemented already, at least by younger teachers here in Canada. One of the problems was always getting older teachers to buy into a new 'system'. Stuck in your ways was indeed a problem.

The acceptance that kids are all individual in the head as much as in the body is a great start. We can see it in the body, but not so in the head. They are all wired differently, and teachers need to individualise as much as is functionally possible. The lower class sizes the better. Fifteen would be nice. Kids can self-learn, and learn from other kids as much as thy can from any teacher. We need to teach them how to learn, not teach them. Its impossible to teach them very much at all of what there is to know.

Here in Canada there is a tremendous disconnect between the theory guys (read university professors) and the policy makers (read government people in charge of education) and those guys should be spending at least one third of their job either in a classroom working, or at the very least, observing. They tend to forget what children are after awhile, and need constant reminders.

Many places here are doing without textbooks now, although they are handy things if you're lazy. They don't allow for enough room top go way off topic if the kids get interested in something. Curricula needs to make room for that, and often it doesn't.

So yeah, I wasn't an ordinary teacher, and I have a lot of ideas, but implementation of anything is a heckuva lot harder than it sounds.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member

I'm currently working on a system

I'm just going to say, as someone who fell through the public school system without really much of any notice, and who eventually ended up at a ****** Christian "school", and ended up dropping out (I got my G.E.D. within a year though), that I really think that I, and many people I saw fall through the cracks too in that journey, would of benefited so much from such concepts that it would of impacted our lives in such a way that so many of us wouldn't be where we are now, dropped out, stuck in poverty, or whatever. Right now, if someone was there to actually help me back when I everything started to go so drastically downhill (it wasn't as if there were not a million signs), I would NOW, RIGHT NOW-be in my THIRD year of college. But I'm not, I'm stuck below the poverty line, with simply a G.E.D. and enough emotional problems to ensure that holding any jobs I am lucky enough to be hired to (if I can find them in this economy!) is difficult at best.
 
Top