Reincarnation: Explorations

[TurkeyOnRye]

This thread is intended to explore and examine reincarnation. The thread is designed to be fairly open-ended for discussion with little constraint on the topic. Questions to get the ball rolling:

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?

Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Good questions, i will be interested to see if any responses conform to my memory.

 

[wizanda]

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

We're in control by our karma balance, character and righteousness.... The more we overcome our own issues, the more likely we are to have it easier in our next incarnation.

So for instance you're a righteous person, who lives Oneness at all costs; yet you still have issues with forcing your opinion on others, and expecting them to get it first time...

You might then incarnate as an oak tree, so you can spend 30 years learning to be patient, before being able to drop your fruit far enough away from your own roots.

Then when you demand that God makes the wind, and birds take your seeds, at that point; you then might realize God has provided everything for your whole growth, so finally acknowledge everything has a time and place, if you wait.

It is an ongoing process of character smoothing, like a rock in the sea; by all the bumps, eventually it can become a pebble, and arrive at the beach one day....

Now if you're more conscious of this, it makes it far easier, than seeing every knock as being against you, rather than to shape you.

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Depends on the belief, some of them categorically deny any form of further existence, other than sleeping...

So God tries to assist souls as is required, which if they're determined to do that, it makes it hard to let them move on.

Positive belief does tho as well, so if you're choosing to believe in Øneness, where you've become selfless, caring, unconditionally loving, have wisdom to share with everyone, and you're ultimate goal is to serve this; then clearly that makes it far easier, than saying you hate everyone, and think you're only here to suffer.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is something I found from a Buddhist perspective.

Would you be surprised if I told you that reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching? If so, be surprised -- it isn't.

"Reincarnation" normally is understood to be the transmigration of a soul to another body after death. There is no such teaching in Buddhism. One of the most fundamental doctrines of Buddhism is anatta, or anatman -- no soul or no self. There is no permanent essence of an individual self that survives death.

Buddhism and reincarnation This is opinionated; but, it is new to me and it makes a lot of sense.

I think reincarnation, in it's exact form is a Hindu teaching. From a Buddhist perspective, how I see it, it's about rebirth until we come to complete liberation of the mind. It's all about the mind. I don't know many Buddhist that call it reincarnation. It's referred to rebirth because it's the mind that "reincarnates" if one likes not a soul and not a spirit. The sutras actually don't talk about a soul or spirit as a lot of us understand it. I know many people talk about consciousness; but, I dont understand how to use the term. I stick with rebirth. It's easier to understand. On that note...

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

We are in control over our karma or actions. By controlling our actions, we are closer to liberation of the mind. If not, we are reborn until we get to that state. To what degree? It depends on the discipline and motivation of the devotee or practitioner. How much practice he feels is worth getting to that state of liberation. I'd say the control is conscious. We are in control of our actions and make decisions to better the suffering of others. That's how I and many Mahayana Buddhist see it. In relation to reincarnation, if it means rebirth, then our actions are conscious actions that we have control over. When we have discipline to ground oneself and help others, then we are closer to mind liberation.

If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?

In the sect I practice, and I will safely say in Buddhism in general, the goal is not to get to the next incarnation. That's automatic. The goal is liberation of the mind. So the steps we take is action and practice that bring liberation and end rebirth.

Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?

No. Our actions determine incarnation or rebirth.

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Some people wouldn't call it a belief system; but, yes. It would be a practice system, I guess you can say. It is the role to achieve freedom from rebirth and liberation of the mind. Buddhism, as far as I know, isn't a belief system. It's all about practice in all sects.

Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

Physical form? That sounds more Hindu. If reincarnation is another word for rebirth, there is no physical form or Self. That's a form of making ourselves permanent or "lasting forever" and we don't. We are always changing one way or another. It's the process of life. It is inevitable because it is the laws of nature. Not really a belief system, it's just life.

We don't reborn into a physical form, though. We are changing and fluctuating and forming rather than becoming one thing and turning into another. That's not possible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?
If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?
Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?
Does belief system play any role in incarnation?
Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

Controlled by nature. Completely. Unconscious. (Note: for me, reincarnation is chemical recycling of the material that constitutes my body).
Answered above.
Forces of nature. They are not indepedant. They have their own law.
No.
Yes, inevitable (chemically).

Yeah, quite an uninteresting explanation.

Good questions, i will be interested to see if any responses conform to my memory.

Your memory or your make-believe, imagination?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Controlled by nature.

Yeah, quite an uninteresting explanation. Your memory or your make-believe, imagination?

Smile, from my perspective Intrusive Memory ...
you or others may consider it imagination or Schizophrenia. as some do with my NDE

 

[Aupmanyav]

NDE is a completely physical phenomenon brought about by increase of carbon-di-oxide in the brain.

 

[buddhist]

From an early Buddhist perspective, we do not believe in reincarnation - as carlita mentioned, it implies a "soul" which transmigrates to another body after physical death.

Instead, we do teach rebirth. Every moment of time is an instance of rebirth - a birth tied to a death which occurred during the past moment, with the nature of the rebirth governed by the laws of kamma. E.g. Your 30-year old self is reborn from your 10-year old self. Are they one and the same, or are they different beings? Both.

This process of "rebirth-ing" does not end at the cessation of physical life.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This thread is intended to explore and examine reincarnation. The thread is designed to be fairly open-ended for discussion with little constraint on the topic. Questions to get the ball rolling:

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?

Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

1) "Control" is erroneous. It is karmic though in respect to cause and effect.

2) Not applicable.

3) Independent forces are commonly seen as something being apart of interconnectivity. It wouldn't be possible then.

Relationships and interactivity of all things eliminates any concepts that qualifies as being independent, hence free of any possible interaction through one's voliation or intentionally directed process, save for perhaps karmic influences that determines outcomes as to weither the lights come on or not as a lifeform as it fits the present definition.

4) No. I don't see how it could. Belief systems are only valid as long as your alive. It will be no good after that.

5) I suspect it is. Being life erupted and with no say whatsoever in the matter. That said, physical forms are regarded as empty, there is no true form that can be spoken of, or pointed at.

 

[YmirGF]

*Whizzes past other explanations so as not to taint what I am thinking*

This thread is intended to explore and examine reincarnation. The thread is designed to be fairly open-ended for discussion with little constraint on the topic. Questions to get the ball rolling:

Sounds spiffy.

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

The individual is under FULL control of the so-called "next" incarnation, however, these decisions are that of the "larger identity" and not necessarily those of your current personality. You are never at the mercy of outside or external forces. Karma, in those terms, does not exist. The angst, wishes and dreams of your current personality are not ignored however. It's sort of a committee decision in some respects.

If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?

Realizing consciously that you are one with your larger identity DOES help. This is not meant as an intellectual understanding or a belief, but a bona fide experience of Oneness (the real Oneness) not the drivel that has made it into so many books. (That topic is food for another thread entirely, LOL, in the common misconceptions of Oneness.)

Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?

In the respect that you are an autonomous independent psychological matrix, then yes. I repeat and stress, you are never at the mercy of any external forces such as gods or karma. It's all on you, even if that sense of "you" is not what you are normally aware of.

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Belief systems can come into play but are normally only a problem with individuals who are new at the game or quite fanatical about said belief structures. Often they will be presented with clear indications that their beliefs are quite lacking or erroneous but will plunge back into the field of possibilities without careful reflection and will arrive quite unprepared.

If, on the other hand, one believes that they are a part of a far larger psychological construct, dealing with former life issues, contemplating how to do things differently and planning an actionable approach may well prove to be beneficial in the quest for further experience. Physical reality is not a penalty box for bad entities, it is a marvelous environment wherein unlimited entities or personalities can narrow their focus and understand how their thoughts and actions mold the experience they come to cherish in an indelible way that is otherwise unavailable to them in their normal unlimited environments.

Laughing, I just thought of Barbara Eden in I dream of Jeanie and how she might react if she forced herself into a situation where she had to go through a huge amount of work to get what she wanted instead of casually twitching her nose, LOL. The point is the value of fulfillment. If something just pops up, presto, one doesn't really appreciate the mechanics required to make it so. When one goes through conception, drafting and then working something out there is a genuine sense of accomplishment. That is what I'm talking about and in my view, that is what this world is for and why we come here, again and again and again and again...

Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

Nope. There is a proviso though. Provided that one understands how their actions, thoughts and beliefs literally form their physical experience then their options are considerably different. If an individual still within the cycle does not yet appreciate this then they must return until they understand. Once your larger identity has "signed the hundred billion lifetimes contract" the game must be seen through... almost literally.

Parting shot: The quirk in my vision of reincarnation is that all incarnations exist simultaneously, each incarnation in its own time/space frame of reference. Each incarnation is "you" in that particular theme, much like an actor in a give role. There is some "bleed throughs" possible amidst incarnations and a limited form of communication can occur say, for example, a 10th century female incarnation can find herself suddenly aware of a 19th century male incarnation. These will always be hazy due to the profound differences in perspective. The individuals involved may think they are perceiving a dead relative, a total stranger or even see themselves....

 

[George-ananda]

One thing that I am not sure is implied in your questions is that there is also a lengthy period between incarnations where the events of the previous incarnations are digested for their learning wisdom, more progress is made through learning and experiences on the astral/heavenly plane, and then the need for new experiences is understood.

Are we under any control over our next incarnation? If so, to what degree? Is this control conscious or unconscious?

If it is under conscious control, are there steps to directing the next incarnation?

Are humans subject to independent forces that determine the resulting incarnation?

We are largely in control. There is foresight and planning with our spiritual soul group and guides and incarnations may happen together in the same earthly family.

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

No belief systems diminish in importance in the higher planes.

Is reincarnation into physical form inevitable?

No, eventually we will advance beyond the need for more human incarnations or perhaps take a different route to further advancement.

 

[George-ananda]

Sounds spiffy.
...

I really liked your post and it basically accords with my thinking on reincarnation. I was pleasantly surprised since from the many previous threads we both engaged in, I thought you wouldn't believe in reincarnation per se. You always seemed to be on the other side of the coin with my positions on other threads.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, I have always found YmirGF on my side of the coin.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

This thread is intended to explore and examine reincarnation.

My take on this.

What is there to reincarnate? My entire identity is tied to my memory and my memory *only* contains information acquired in this birth. If I have lived before, I have absolutely no indication of it. Likewise, if I am born again, that new person will have no recollection of me and therefore, he is pretty much a different person. There is nothing in common between me and him and so, it is impossible to see him as my reincarnation.

Does belief system play any role in incarnation?

Reincarnation is nothing more than a belief. If you were not told about it by religious people/books, we would not be having this discussion.

Before, we get to the topic of rebirth, the topic of birth itself is questionable. I can never experience my own birth ( that is, the so-called point of me coming into existence). Similarly, I can never experience death - a point where I go out of existence, for I need to exist to experience the moment and identify it as such. Effectively, neither birth nor death are real experiences and they are only inferred by us. For all practical purposes, I always exist - with no birth and no death. Without birth and death, the topic of rebirth does not arise.

The Indian scholar Gaudapada (5th/6th Century CE)'s doctrine is labeled ajati-vada - the doctrine of no birth.

 

[YmirGF]

I really liked your post and it basically accords with my thinking on reincarnation. I was pleasantly surprised since from the many previous threads we both engaged in, I thought you wouldn't believe in reincarnation per se. You always seemed to be on the other side of the coin with my positions on other threads.

What can I say George? I'm not your average, garden variety, atheist, LOL. I guess all I am attempting to do is express things from a modern perspective without relying on tired old distortions from the past. As far as reincarnation goes, I'm trying to express a "system" wherein the individual identity has full control and is only bound as they believe themselves to be.

 

[George-ananda]

What can I say George? I'm not your average, garden variety, atheist, LOL. I guess all I am attempting to do is express things from a modern perspective without relying on tired old distortions from the past. As far as reincarnation goes, I'm trying to express a "system" wherein the individual identity has full control and is only bound as they believe themselves to be.

Ok. I am pleased to hear you are beyond materialism in regards to consciousness.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

My understanding is that consciousness flows through the body like electricity flows through a circuit board. Break the circuit board, and electricity simply follows another path. My hunch is that as we follow our path through life, consciousness is quietly gathering information necessary for its transmission into the next body (What that body actually is, is not clearly apparent to ego-based consciousness. From that perspective, we can say the organism is not under control over the next incarnation. On the other hand, the greater entity has supreme control). This entire time, consciousness is operating on a few base presumptions about its current reality and does not extricate itself from those presumptions until much later (that is to say until those presumptions are proven faulty or "expire")...could be many incarnations in the "future." It's a very scientific process; the entity/consciousness eliminates one variable at a time as a means of "triangulating" its position in space/time/consciousness. Ultimately, the process is one of attaining a greater intimacy with its own Self through a never-ending cycle of information gathering through experience.

Strictly speaking, reincarnation doesn't appear to me as a transmission into another body, but really just a reformation of consciousness itself. As the entity gathers information over the lifespan, the body deteriorates, which may in a sense be an external manifestation of the expiring belief structure. By the time the body dies, my guess is that there should be another one ready for consciousness to take up residence (keep in mind, it's not necessarily what we know to be a physical body). The new body is perfectly accommodating to the acquired knowledge gleaned from the previous life, but that knowledge is sort of converted to accommodate the needs of the new body.

What fascinates me is the mechanism involved with reincarnation in the context of suicide. My hunch is that the information gathering process unexpectedly reveals a much greater concentration of space/time/consciousness elsewhere, and as such, consciousness "exits" the body before its assumed expiration date.

 

[atanu]

My understanding is that consciousness flows through the body like electricity flows through a circuit board. Break the circuit board, and electricity simply follows another path. My hunch is that as we follow our path through life, consciousness is quietly gathering information necessary for its transmission into the next body (What that body actually is, is not clearly apparent to ego-based consciousness. From that perspective, we can say the organism is not under control over the next incarnation. On the other hand, the greater entity has supreme control). This entire time, consciousness is operating on a few base presumptions about its current reality and does not extricate itself from those presumptions until much later (that is to say until those presumptions are proven faulty or "expire")...could be many incarnations in the "future." It's a very scientific process; the entity/consciousness eliminates one variable at a time as a means of "triangulating" its position in space/time/consciousness. Ultimately, the process is one of attaining a greater intimacy with its own Self through a never-ending cycle of information gathering through experience.

Strictly speaking, reincarnation doesn't appear to me as a transmission into another body, but really just a reformation of consciousness itself. As the entity gathers information over the lifespan, the body deteriorates, which may in a sense be an external manifestation of the expiring belief structure. By the time the body dies, my guess is that there should be another one ready for consciousness to take up residence (keep in mind, it's not necessarily what we know to be a physical body). The new body is perfectly accommodating to the acquired knowledge gleaned from the previous life, but that knowledge is sort of converted to accommodate the needs of the new body.

What fascinates me is the mechanism involved with reincarnation in the context of suicide. My hunch is that the information gathering process unexpectedly reveals a much greater concentration of space/time/consciousness elsewhere, and as such, consciousness "exits" the body before its assumed expiration date.

I like this very much.

Consciousness manifests as soul-seer of nature of wisdom (prajña) and also as the doer ego with intellect (buddhi), mind (manas), senses, and body. The following verse of Gita explains the relationship among these levels.

indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah

At the gross level, we are aware of only the senses of the body. The controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind is the intelligence. And above the intelligence is the soul.

The living soul, jiva atman, releases hold over a gross body and accompanied by subtle body moves over to a new body, to continue its journey.

Sages such as Ramana Maharshi say "One that has taken up a body knows the purpose. Why you worry?".

However, at another level, Shri Ramana asks "See whether you are born or not?".

So, at ego-body level, there is birth and death without any knowledge of other lives. But, at the soul level, there is no birth or death but only taking up of new bodies. OTOH, at pure consciousness level, there is not even that, just a non dual existence.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

OTOH, at pure consciousness level, there is not even that, just a non dual existence.

To my thinking, non-dual existence is always the case. Non-dual perception, however, seems like a contradiction of terms. Given how entrapped most people are by the motions of their thinking, what most people probably mean by non-dual experience is a relative cessation of thought.

The first time it happens, it may feel like the end-all spiritual experience, and that nothing could supplant it in its feeling of completeness...that is with the exception of one teeny tiny (and I mean tiny) thought that is skeptical of that experience and begins to pursue its own reality while the newly-born egomaniac preaches to his friends about what pure consciousness is like. Eventually, I suppose, that thought will become a fully-grown belief system, and its crucifixion will herald another spiritual experience.

 

[atanu]

To my thinking, non-dual existence is always the case. Non-dual perception, however, seems like a contradiction of terms. Given how entrapped most people are by the motions of their thinking, what most people probably mean by non-dual experience is a relative cessation of thought.

The first time it happens, it may feel like the end-all spiritual experience, and that nothing could supplant it in its feeling of completeness...that is with the exception of one teeny tiny (and I mean tiny) thought that is skeptical of that experience and begins to pursue its own reality while the newly-born egomaniac preaches to his friends about what pure consciousness is like. Eventually, I suppose, that thought will become a fully-grown belief system, and its crucifixion will herald another spiritual experience.

I may not understand the above fully, but I agree to the essential point, highlighted above. I think that even while one is in the preaching state, one can consciously let go of the separative mind and rest in the non dual.