sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Everone who has died will be reincarnated to stand for judgement. This just isn't what most people think of when the think of the concept.
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Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
The same way I call some of the Plantaenet kings of England my forefathers. Are you trying to tell me that Joseph is a reincarnation of King David?
God never said that he would but only that He would be a descendant of David.
I believe this is ingenuous on your part. God is creator. He has no problem bringing something physical into being without having something physical pre-existing. I beleive David is not the Holy Spirit. I don't believe David supplied any sperm.
Muffled
Jesus in me
A resurrection can be a form of re-incarnation but it is not re-birth. I beleive John the Baptist was born with a new body and name and no memry of being Elijah in a previous life. Depending on how quickly lives turn over he could have had many intervening lives.
I believe those who ae born early have many lives but those who had to wait until latter times to be born have had few lives. Then there is my wife who spent a great deal of time in Heaven foregoing lives because she likes things to be perfect and they never are in life.
Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asked:
"Are you trying to tell me that Joseph is a reincarnation of King David?"
Not at all. I have already written to you that tribal identity always comes to son or to daughter through the father and not from the mother. Yahushua could never be the Seed of David without a Jewish Father who comes from the Tribe of Judah and who also is a descendant of the House of David.
Should you be willing to examine the forefathers of Yahushua, you should be able to see that membership in the Tribe of Judah does not come from the mother because two of the mothers of Yahushua were Gentiles, namely, Tamar and Ruth.
Both of these mothers were also involved in a special circumstance of Levirate marriage which further proves that inheritance must come through the father and not through the mother; otherwise, there would be no need of Levirate marriage for the widows to provide offspring for the deceased husband.
Look and see that Naomi was given a son through Ruth because Ruth was married to Boaz through a levitate marriage. It was necessary that Boaz enter the picture in order for any offspring of Ruth, who is a Gentile, to have her son established as a son of Naomi (Ruth 4:13-17).
What this all means is that Joseph did supply the sperm that did fertilize the egg of Mary in her womb. Given that Mary was a virgin, this could only occur if the Holy Spirit transferred the sperm of Joseph to her womb. Hence, Yahushua does desend from the Tribe of Judah and also from the House of David.
Please also notice, Muffled, that YAHWEH can give conception (Ruth 4:13), and if it is possible that YAHWEH can give conception, then it is possible that YAHWEH can also interfer with physical conception, that is, YAHWEH can close the womb of any woman. The opening and closing of the womb of a woman is not a spiritual happening apart from the physical. This opening and closing of the womb on the part of YAHWEH involves YAHWEH dealing with human physicality. The ability to get pregnant is totally physical. Getting pregnant is a physical process. My point is this: YAHWEH can and is able to control all of our physical processes.
So, Muffled, who are you to say that YAHWEH did not take a physical sperm from Joseph to implant that sperm in the womb of Mary?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asked:
"Are you trying to tell me that Joseph is a reincarnation of King David?"
Not at all. I have already written to you that tribal identity always comes to son or to daughter through the father and not from the mother. Yahushua could never be the Seed of David without a Jewish Father who comes from the Tribe of Judah and who also is a descendant of the House of David.
Should you be willing to examine the forefathers of Yahushua, you should be able to see that membership in the Tribe of Judah does not come from the mother because two of the mothers of Yahushua were Gentiles, namely, Tamar and Ruth.
Both of these mothers were also involved in a special circumstance of Levirate marriage which further proves that inheritance must come through the father and not through the mother; otherwise, there would be no need of Levirate marriage for the widows to provide offspring for the deceased husband.
Look and see that Naomi was given a son through Ruth because Ruth was married to Boaz through a levitate marriage. It was necessary that Boaz enter the picture in order for any offspring of Ruth, who is a Gentile, to have her son established as a son of Naomi (Ruth 4:13-17).
What this all means is that Joseph did supply the sperm that did fertilize the egg of Mary in her womb. Given that Mary was a virgin, this could only occur if the Holy Spirit transferred the sperm of Joseph to her womb. Hence, Yahushua does desend from the Tribe of Judah and also from the House of David.
Please also notice, Muffled, that YAHWEH can give conception (Ruth 4:13), and if it is possible that YAHWEH can give conception, then it is possible that YAHWEH can also interfer with physical conception, that is, YAHWEH can close the womb of any woman. The opening and closing of the womb of a woman is not a spiritual happening apart from the physical. This opening and closing of the womb on the part of YAHWEH involves YAHWEH dealing with human physicality. The ability to get pregnant is totally physical. Getting pregnant is a physical process. My point is this: YAHWEH can and is able to control all of our physical processes.
So, Muffled, who are you to say that YAHWEH did not take a physical sperm from Joseph to implant that sperm in the womb of Mary?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Shermana
Heretic
So do you believe they will receive a physical body and then be killed in that body, or that they will enter into Hellfire in that physical body?
Muffled
Jesus in me
You are laboring under a misapprehension. Jesus does not have to be a member of the tribe of Judah to be King of the Kingdom of God. Although Israel had rules about who could be King of Israel God is not obligated to follow those rules and the prophecy is still correct that the Davidic line of Kings continues eternally through Jesus being the seed of David through Mary.
When I speak, you are hearing God speak. I did not take a sperm from Joseph.
Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
The Word of ELOHIM expressly says:
Proverbs 18:13
13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Accordingly, Muffled, if you would be so kind, could you please explain to me how it is that you yourself can claim to speak for ELOHIM in this matter according to this your scripture:
Muffled 1:1
1 When I speak, you are hearing God speak. I did not take a sperm from Joseph.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to advance my hearing, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
The Word of ELOHIM expressly says:
Proverbs 18:13
13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Accordingly, Muffled, if you would be so kind, could you please explain to me how it is that you yourself can claim to speak for ELOHIM in this matter according to this your scripture:
Muffled 1:1
1 When I speak, you are hearing God speak. I did not take a sperm from Joseph.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to advance my hearing, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
John Martin
Active Member
There are two types of spiritual traditions: wisdom and prophetic traditions. Religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Taoism belong to Wisdom tradition.Religions like Judaism. Christianity,Islam and Bahai belong to prophetic traditin. Reincarnation is the core belief in wisdom religions. they officially believe in it. Prophetic religions officially do not believe in it. Now a days people from these traditions try to argue that some how these religions also believe in reincarnation.
I would like to propose the following:
1. Reincarnation exists
2. Just believing in reincarnation is not very helpful
3. Just not believing in reincarnation is not very helpful
4. Seeing reincarnation as a fact can help us to free ourselves from it.
5. Jesus Christ does not deny reincarnation but his approach to it would be different.
Reincarnation exist: I would like to say reincarnation exists. The essence of reincarnation is continuity.The past entering into the present and going into the future.
There are different levels of continuity:
a. physical continuity: parents continue in and through their physical children. The genes are passed on. This we can call physical reincarnation. This is not something we need to believe in but it is a fact.
b. Reincarnation of desire: Buddhism does not believe in a permanent soul. The so called soul consists of sheaths of desires. These desires are reborn until the desire is completely stopped. When there is no desire there is nirvana, extinction of desire.
c. Reincarnation of individual souls: Hinduism believes in an eternal individual soul, atman. The purpose of life is moksa or liberation which happens when atman is united with Brahman or experiences oneness with Brahman(This depends what types of Hindu System you believe in). until this realization takes the individual soul takes new bodies according its previous karma or actions.
d. Reincarnation of lamas in Buddhism. Buddhism makes a subtle distinction between rebirth and reincarnation. Rebirth is something happens mechanically according to the cause and effect,karma. Individuals have no choice. Reincarnation is a conscious choice one makes. Per example the present Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of previous Dalai Lama, because the previous Dalai Lama made a conscious choice to be born, refusing to enter into Nirvana, for the liberation of the sentient and non-sentient beings. If the present Dalai Lama makes the same choice then he will be born again in the future.
e. Reincarnation of memories; some propose that it is not the reincarnation of the individual souls but reincarnation of memories. All our experiences from the beginning of the human consciousness are stored in the akashic field,which is like a black box in the aeroplane. Or it is like the google engine in which all the information is stored and people can down load the information if they have proper address. What we call reincarnation experiences are nothing but individual consciousness coming into contact with the memories in the akashic field.
f. Reincarnation of the belief systems: many people think that they are individuals but if we go deep we discover they are not individuals but working for a belief system. Reincarnation of belief systems means belief systems which are born in the past enter into the present go into the future. For example Hindu belief system is born thousands of years ago but that belief system continuously born.Individuals are born to give continuity to this belief system. In the same way Buddhism was born 2500 years ago but that belief system continuously reincarnates. Judaism was born more three thousand years ago that belief system continuously reincarnates. Christianity was born 2000 years ago and that belief system continues century after century. The same applies to Islam,which was born 1500 years and that belief system continues.It applies to all belief systems. There are six billion individuals in the world but at the level of belief systems we can count them on fingers: Hinduism takes more than a billion individuals, Judaism may take less than 100 millions, Christianity may take around 2 billions, Islam may take around 1.3 billions and Buddhism may take 300 to 400 millions. We can include other belief systems also. So even though there are 6 billion individuals in the world, there are around 20 belief system that are living in an through these individuals. Individuals come and go but the belief systems continue. This is what I call reincarnation of belief systems. Is it a fact or it is a belief? It is a fact-not a belief. One may believe in individual reincarnation or may not but the reincarnation of belief structures is a fact.
We have said reincarnation means continuity: the past entering into the present and going into the future:this continuity can happen all the things that we have explained above. it means that the past is using the present to go to the future. The present is not free. it is not original.it is not creative. It is a mechanical movement. ( We have to give exemption the physical continuity)
if the present needs to be free then it has to be free from the past consequently from the future. Jesus saw this movement as a fact and he stopped it.
Jesus Christ said,' I am the way, the truth and the life'. This is the statement of some one who is freed from the past and affirms the freedom of the present. This statement has two aspects: It is a statement of freedom from all the conditioning of the past . it also means giving freedom to the future so that the future will not be the continuity of the past but the future will be completely free to say 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. This statement is a statement of greatness and also of humility. it is greatness to be from from the past. It is humility to give freedom to the future. In this experience the present becomes original and creative. Jesus was able to do it because he saw the fact of past entering into the present and going to the future. He stopped this movement and gave freedom to the present.The first statement Jesus made( Mark) was 'the time has come to an end'. It was the end of past, present and future and the arrival of the eternity in the present, the kingdom of God. In this experience there is no belief but a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. In this experience God's indwelling presence is experienced. This God is not the God of the past but the God of eternity, the God of now, I am who I am. Jesus said 'no one comes to the Father except through me'. No one can come to this experience of freedom except by doing what Jesus did: It is to stop the movement of the past. it is to be free from the past and the future. Jesus called this process repentance.
If we blindly believe in reincarnation with out seeing it as a fact then we are conditioned by it and we are bound by it.The way we live it depends on what we believe. If we blindly reject reincarnation then we do not see the reality of it, we are blind to it. It is seeing reincarnation as a fact that we discover that it is not worth to give continuity to it. When we discover that the pastis living in the present and controlling it then we stop it in order to enter into the eternal present. In Christianity we have the episode of virgin birth: a spiritual virgin is one who discontinues the past and gives birth to eternity. It is to see God in the present moment. it is to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God. It is no longer our life but God's life. We are free from our birth and death but our birth becomes birth of God and our death becomes the death of God. This is moksa or liberation. Jesus Christ said, 'the actions that i do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me does his works. it is the statement of someone who is free from reincarnation.
I would like to propose the following:
1. Reincarnation exists
2. Just believing in reincarnation is not very helpful
3. Just not believing in reincarnation is not very helpful
4. Seeing reincarnation as a fact can help us to free ourselves from it.
5. Jesus Christ does not deny reincarnation but his approach to it would be different.
Reincarnation exist: I would like to say reincarnation exists. The essence of reincarnation is continuity.The past entering into the present and going into the future.
There are different levels of continuity:
a. physical continuity: parents continue in and through their physical children. The genes are passed on. This we can call physical reincarnation. This is not something we need to believe in but it is a fact.
b. Reincarnation of desire: Buddhism does not believe in a permanent soul. The so called soul consists of sheaths of desires. These desires are reborn until the desire is completely stopped. When there is no desire there is nirvana, extinction of desire.
c. Reincarnation of individual souls: Hinduism believes in an eternal individual soul, atman. The purpose of life is moksa or liberation which happens when atman is united with Brahman or experiences oneness with Brahman(This depends what types of Hindu System you believe in). until this realization takes the individual soul takes new bodies according its previous karma or actions.
d. Reincarnation of lamas in Buddhism. Buddhism makes a subtle distinction between rebirth and reincarnation. Rebirth is something happens mechanically according to the cause and effect,karma. Individuals have no choice. Reincarnation is a conscious choice one makes. Per example the present Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of previous Dalai Lama, because the previous Dalai Lama made a conscious choice to be born, refusing to enter into Nirvana, for the liberation of the sentient and non-sentient beings. If the present Dalai Lama makes the same choice then he will be born again in the future.
e. Reincarnation of memories; some propose that it is not the reincarnation of the individual souls but reincarnation of memories. All our experiences from the beginning of the human consciousness are stored in the akashic field,which is like a black box in the aeroplane. Or it is like the google engine in which all the information is stored and people can down load the information if they have proper address. What we call reincarnation experiences are nothing but individual consciousness coming into contact with the memories in the akashic field.
f. Reincarnation of the belief systems: many people think that they are individuals but if we go deep we discover they are not individuals but working for a belief system. Reincarnation of belief systems means belief systems which are born in the past enter into the present go into the future. For example Hindu belief system is born thousands of years ago but that belief system continuously born.Individuals are born to give continuity to this belief system. In the same way Buddhism was born 2500 years ago but that belief system continuously reincarnates. Judaism was born more three thousand years ago that belief system continuously reincarnates. Christianity was born 2000 years ago and that belief system continues century after century. The same applies to Islam,which was born 1500 years and that belief system continues.It applies to all belief systems. There are six billion individuals in the world but at the level of belief systems we can count them on fingers: Hinduism takes more than a billion individuals, Judaism may take less than 100 millions, Christianity may take around 2 billions, Islam may take around 1.3 billions and Buddhism may take 300 to 400 millions. We can include other belief systems also. So even though there are 6 billion individuals in the world, there are around 20 belief system that are living in an through these individuals. Individuals come and go but the belief systems continue. This is what I call reincarnation of belief systems. Is it a fact or it is a belief? It is a fact-not a belief. One may believe in individual reincarnation or may not but the reincarnation of belief structures is a fact.
We have said reincarnation means continuity: the past entering into the present and going into the future:this continuity can happen all the things that we have explained above. it means that the past is using the present to go to the future. The present is not free. it is not original.it is not creative. It is a mechanical movement. ( We have to give exemption the physical continuity)
if the present needs to be free then it has to be free from the past consequently from the future. Jesus saw this movement as a fact and he stopped it.
Jesus Christ said,' I am the way, the truth and the life'. This is the statement of some one who is freed from the past and affirms the freedom of the present. This statement has two aspects: It is a statement of freedom from all the conditioning of the past . it also means giving freedom to the future so that the future will not be the continuity of the past but the future will be completely free to say 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. This statement is a statement of greatness and also of humility. it is greatness to be from from the past. It is humility to give freedom to the future. In this experience the present becomes original and creative. Jesus was able to do it because he saw the fact of past entering into the present and going to the future. He stopped this movement and gave freedom to the present.The first statement Jesus made( Mark) was 'the time has come to an end'. It was the end of past, present and future and the arrival of the eternity in the present, the kingdom of God. In this experience there is no belief but a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. In this experience God's indwelling presence is experienced. This God is not the God of the past but the God of eternity, the God of now, I am who I am. Jesus said 'no one comes to the Father except through me'. No one can come to this experience of freedom except by doing what Jesus did: It is to stop the movement of the past. it is to be free from the past and the future. Jesus called this process repentance.
If we blindly believe in reincarnation with out seeing it as a fact then we are conditioned by it and we are bound by it.The way we live it depends on what we believe. If we blindly reject reincarnation then we do not see the reality of it, we are blind to it. It is seeing reincarnation as a fact that we discover that it is not worth to give continuity to it. When we discover that the pastis living in the present and controlling it then we stop it in order to enter into the eternal present. In Christianity we have the episode of virgin birth: a spiritual virgin is one who discontinues the past and gives birth to eternity. It is to see God in the present moment. it is to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God. It is no longer our life but God's life. We are free from our birth and death but our birth becomes birth of God and our death becomes the death of God. This is moksa or liberation. Jesus Christ said, 'the actions that i do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me does his works. it is the statement of someone who is free from reincarnation.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe officials believe things that aren't true such as a three person Trinity.
I see this as a creation. The new physical form may proceed from the old but it is not a clone it is a brand new physical being.
That was not how I had Buddhist rebirth described to me. However there are many schools of thought in Buddhism.
Granted that there does not appear to be anything prophetic in Hindu texts. However there is a spiritual heritage that suggests divine guidance. I believe the Hindus err on the subject of not returning to physical life after wholeness with God is achieved. I believe God created physical bodies for us and that itis a good thing to live a physical life. It is also something to which Christians look forward to without the evils of this world.
The cause and affect notion is one that I have seen both in Buddhism and Hinduism and I don't believe it reflects reality. I also don't believe that a spirit get to make the final choice about reincarnation. I believe that is in God's hands. However I also believe that God will grant permission to those wishing to be near familiar spirits unless there is Karma that has to be met.
Jesus although abiding in time has the Holy Spirit dwelling within and the Holy Spirit dwells in all of time and outside of time.
God is not bound by anything. He is able to enter physical form as He wishes.
John Martin
Active Member
Reincarnation and resurrection need not be contradictory. They belong to different levels: Reincarnation is a movement of continuity from the past into the present and into the future. There are different types of continuities-reincarnations: individual and the collective. The incarnations of belief systems are the most evident form of reincarnation.
Resurrection has also different levels: physical and spiritual. Physical resurrection is something happens after death. Spiritual resurrection happens when a person is still alive. Spiritual resurrection is that in which a person transcends the movement of continuity (reincarnation) and enters into the realm of eternity. In this experience a person lives in the eternal present, no more past and no more future. In the collective reincarnation a person says 'my religion is the way, the truth and life'. It is not the individual that but religion or belief system that is living in that person. In the resurrection a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. Jesus said, 'I am the life and resurrection’. He said this before his physical resurrection. Jesus transcended the movement of reincarnation and entered into the realm of resurrection. He invited people to the life of resurrection by transcending the life of reincarnation. Jesus does not deny the phenomenon of reincarnation but he sees it as a mechanical movement, which needs to be transcended. We need to have the experience of resurrection before death and then we understand what it means the resurrection after physical death. We need to die before we die.
The differences between reincarnation and resurrection
Reincarnation is the movement from the past into the present and then into the future
Resurrection is the discontinuity of this past movement and manifesting eternity in the present.
In reincarnation the past uses the present to go into the future.
In resurrection the present is for the sake of the present.
Reincarnation is the movement of the ego.
Resurrection is the movement of the image and likeness of God.
Reincarnation is the movement of ignorance and desire
Resurrection is the movement of light or truth.
Reincarnation is the movement of emptiness and UN-fulfillment
Resurrection is the movement of fullness and inner fulfillment.
Reincarnation is the movement of becoming
Resurrection is the movement of unfolding.
In reincarnation a person says religion is the way,the truth and the life
In resurrection a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'.
When Jesus said, ’I am the way, the truth and the life’, it is the statement of resurrection.
If we say ‘Jesus is the way, the truth and the life’ then it becomes the movement of reincarnation because we are giving continuity to the past, to a person or to a belief.
Resurrection has also different levels: physical and spiritual. Physical resurrection is something happens after death. Spiritual resurrection happens when a person is still alive. Spiritual resurrection is that in which a person transcends the movement of continuity (reincarnation) and enters into the realm of eternity. In this experience a person lives in the eternal present, no more past and no more future. In the collective reincarnation a person says 'my religion is the way, the truth and life'. It is not the individual that but religion or belief system that is living in that person. In the resurrection a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. Jesus said, 'I am the life and resurrection’. He said this before his physical resurrection. Jesus transcended the movement of reincarnation and entered into the realm of resurrection. He invited people to the life of resurrection by transcending the life of reincarnation. Jesus does not deny the phenomenon of reincarnation but he sees it as a mechanical movement, which needs to be transcended. We need to have the experience of resurrection before death and then we understand what it means the resurrection after physical death. We need to die before we die.
The differences between reincarnation and resurrection
Reincarnation is the movement from the past into the present and then into the future
Resurrection is the discontinuity of this past movement and manifesting eternity in the present.
In reincarnation the past uses the present to go into the future.
In resurrection the present is for the sake of the present.
Reincarnation is the movement of the ego.
Resurrection is the movement of the image and likeness of God.
Reincarnation is the movement of ignorance and desire
Resurrection is the movement of light or truth.
Reincarnation is the movement of emptiness and UN-fulfillment
Resurrection is the movement of fullness and inner fulfillment.
Reincarnation is the movement of becoming
Resurrection is the movement of unfolding.
In reincarnation a person says religion is the way,the truth and the life
In resurrection a person says 'I am the way, the truth and the life'.
When Jesus said, ’I am the way, the truth and the life’, it is the statement of resurrection.
If we say ‘Jesus is the way, the truth and the life’ then it becomes the movement of reincarnation because we are giving continuity to the past, to a person or to a belief.
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John Martin
Active Member
Dear Muffled,
Thank your reply and I appreciate very much. I feel so much in agreement what you say.It is wonderful that this dialogue clarifies many things.
]I believe officials believe things that aren't true such as a three person Trinity.
Trinity has to be understood properly.Trinity does not mean three Gods. The words, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are metaphorical. The word persons need to be understood properly. Trinity has to be seen in practical value. The essence of Trinity is relationship. It means life is relationship.We need to experience God in giving and receiving. From the divine point of view, the giver, the receiver and the giving are one and the same. It is non-duality.
I see this as a creation. The new physical form may proceed from the old but it is not a clone it is a brand new physical being.
Yes, we can see this as creation. It is not a clone. Yet it receives genes from the past. I only wanted to say that our physical genes continue in and through our children.
That was not how I had Buddhist rebirth described to me. However there are many schools of thought in Buddhism.
Yes,this is not a typical Buddhist view.
Granted that there does not appear to be anything prophetic in Hindu texts. However there is a spiritual heritage that suggests divine guidance. I believe the Hindus err on the subject of not returning to physical life after wholeness with God is achieved. I believe God created physical bodies for us and that it is a good thing to live a physical life. It is also something to which Christians look forward to without the evils of this world.
There is a tendency in Hindu Tradition and even Buddhist Tradition to think that to be born in this world is the product of one's karma. The goal is to be free from birth and death- which is seen as samsara. Moksha or liberation is freedom from birth and death. So the body does not receive much importance except as a means for liberation. Prophetic religions consider that this birth is the gift of God. It is something positive. The purpose of life not exactly Moksha but to be fruitful and multiply-which is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion as long as we live in the world. The body also shares in the life of God.( the word Moksha literally means kshara is to stop,to destroy,to disontinue moha means ignorance, desires and illusions or attachments. Hence moksha means to stop the movement of ignorance, desires and attachments.It is to stop reincarnation. It is to stop the movement of ego.When the movement of ego is not there then it is the life of God.
Jesus although abiding in time has the Holy Spirit dwelling within and the Holy Spirit dwells in all of time and outside of time.
Yes, Jesus Christ was full of Holy Spirit. though he was living in time and space he was rooted in God and in Eternity. Yes, the Holy Spirit dwells in all of time and outside of time.
God is not bound by anything. He is able to enter physical form as He wishes.
Yes, God is not bound by time. He is able to enter physical forms as he wishes.
I wouldn't normally enter this discussion as it's essentially a Christian debate as to whether or not reincarnation is part of Christian scripture. It is obviously part of Hindu scripture, as in Hinduism it's a core tenet, a given, not even open to debate.
To draw a comparison between resurrection and reincarnation as concepts certainly doesn't fit for any traditional Hindu view. There have been 'blenders' for lack of a better word, who attempt to do that. But traditionalists see it as akin to claiming Brazil and Canada are the same country.
So just to clarify, in Hinduism, we are the soul body, and it's unchanging essence, the Self, identical in essence to Siva or Vishnu, or whatever Supreme God the particular Hindu holds, also often termed ParaBrahman. There is some variance among schools regarding terminology, but this is the basic view. It is this soul body that reincarnates, taking on physical body after physical body after physical body over many many lifetimes, each time learning a few more lessons of life until the soul body finally merges with Siva, as water into water. This process of reincarnation is often likened to a change of clothes. The soul 'puts on' a new body each time, just as a person changes his shirt after taking a bath.
To be fair, I know very very little about Resurrection, other than supposedly the exact same physical body reappears somewhere else. So anyone claiming they are the same thing or even remotely similar has a vivid imagination, or believes syncreticism is a 'better' way than either of the other.
To draw a comparison between resurrection and reincarnation as concepts certainly doesn't fit for any traditional Hindu view. There have been 'blenders' for lack of a better word, who attempt to do that. But traditionalists see it as akin to claiming Brazil and Canada are the same country.
So just to clarify, in Hinduism, we are the soul body, and it's unchanging essence, the Self, identical in essence to Siva or Vishnu, or whatever Supreme God the particular Hindu holds, also often termed ParaBrahman. There is some variance among schools regarding terminology, but this is the basic view. It is this soul body that reincarnates, taking on physical body after physical body after physical body over many many lifetimes, each time learning a few more lessons of life until the soul body finally merges with Siva, as water into water. This process of reincarnation is often likened to a change of clothes. The soul 'puts on' a new body each time, just as a person changes his shirt after taking a bath.
To be fair, I know very very little about Resurrection, other than supposedly the exact same physical body reappears somewhere else. So anyone claiming they are the same thing or even remotely similar has a vivid imagination, or believes syncreticism is a 'better' way than either of the other.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Vinayaka,
Thank you for your post. I do appreciate it. I would like to propose that reincarnation is not necessarily a Hindu concept or belief. It is an universal truth which the Vedic sages have discovered and also transcended it by realizing their oneness with Self, Brahman-Shiva or Paramashiva, whatever you like to call. It is water merging into water. But this reincarnation as sages understood is not just continuity of an individual soul as generally understood in Hinduism. It is not just individual souls taking individual bodies or changing clothes but it is also belief systems that are taking the individuals bodies in order to continue. The moment a person says, 'I am a Christian or I am a Hindu' it is Christian belief or Hindu belief that is living in that person. Hence Reincarnation is more than the reincarnation of individual sols. that. It is also continuation or reincarnation of belief systems, which is a fact and that is happening. The Mandukya Upanishad calls 'it dreaming consciousness'.
Christian vision of human being is threefold:body, soul and spirit. In the first letter to the Thessalonians St.Paul says, May the God of peace make you perfect and holy may your spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.(1Thess. 5.23). God is eternal reality eternal essence beyond these levels.
In Greek body is soma, soul is psyche and spirit is pneuma. Spirit is the image and likeness of God in us. Its nature is to unfold life, not to become. Soul, which is the reflection of the spirit in the mind-body complex, needs to be in harmony with the spirit; and the body in harmony with the soul. When there is harmny between these three there is are also harmony with God. This is called salvation or freedom. But the soul forgets its real vocation and call and takes the movement of becoming, as opposite to unfolding( spirit does not become but unfolds life). it uses the body as a means of becoming. It continuously takes new bodies. This is the movement of ignorance and desire(moha) ,against its true nature. This is symbolically coming our of the Garden of Eden. This movement is represented by the serpent crawling on the ground,which is the movement of struggle and suffering( samsara). This movement continues until one realizes one's oneness with God or the Self. This process is called reincarnation Hinduism.
The purpose of life is to discover our spirit, the image and likeness of God, which stops this external movement. In the Upanishads we read: the senses look for God outside, but a sage looks within and finds immortality.
Unfortunately Christians understand Resurrection something related to the body that happens only after death. It may have its meaning but it is very limited understanding. There are two resurrections: spiritual and physical. Jesus has the experience of spiritual resurrection before he had physical resurrection. Jesus said , 'I am the Life and Resurrection' before his death. He also said, 'Just as Father has life in himself, he has granted the Son to have life in himself; I have come to give life and give it abundantly. Spiritual resurrection is awakening to the eternal reality within us. It is experiencing our oneness with God. It is like self-realization in Hinduism or awakening in Buddhism. Hence Resurrection has to happen before our physical death. and physical resurrection. It happens when we discover our spirit. In discovering our spirit we experience God's indwelling presence and finally realize that we are one with God, the water becomes water, 'the Father and I are one', Atman is Brahman.
What I am saying is that the ultimate destiny which Hinduism proposes is not different which Jesus proposes, even though Christians may not see it that way. Reincarnation is not just a Hindu concept but it is an universal truth. I do not limit it only to the reincarnation of individual souls, which is very limited, but all also the reincarnation of belief systems, which is a very powerful that is happening and it is difficult movement to liberate oneself from. I would like to say also that Resurrection is just a Christian concept or belief but it is a universal concept. It is self realization in Hinduism and awakening in Buddhism.
I sincerely thank you for your post which helped me to clarify my self.
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John Martin
Active Member
Yes, I am working at the borders. You know the borders are heavily armed. To walk along the border is very dangerous. Those who walk along the borders are suspected of disloyalty. Jesus said, 'Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons and daughters of God'. I strongly feel to work for peace, to defuse the tension at the border and even make the borders more of a functional value than essential.
The analogy of mixing milk and orange seems does not fit to me. I do not see milk and orange. I only see water in both the glasses only the glasses are in different colours: orange colour glass and milky colour glass. The water inside these two glasses is pure water-the image and likeness of God. I want to put this water in one transparent and colourless glass and then pour into the water of the ocean of the divine self so that the pure water merges with the pure water.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Ken Brown,
thank you for your post. I do not know what you are aiming at. God does not reincarnate because God is the fullness of being and fullness of being does not reincarnate but unfolds.
If Human beings reduce God into certain concepts and beliefs,then human beings give continuity to those concepts and beliefs then we can that these concepts of God reincarnate, not God.