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Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Xchristian
Active Member
I think I addressed this issue before ...
fancy an onion being pealed, that's what the bible is all about.
It's the work of generation after generation after generation of redaction, change, modification, addition, and removal.
I am currently working on a project discussing how Luke's gospel is originally eye candy for the separation believers. While it went through work by Marcion whom has been accused of excising the first two chapters, scholars now tend to say that the first two chapters are actually not part of the original peace.
John's prologue, and epilogue, Mark 16:9ff, John 8, 1John5:7 and numerous others are only examples of later additions.
1Cor15 is supposed to have loads of interpolation according to professor Robert M Price, and the list goes on and on...
What we can say safely is that original chrisitians were not in tandem with the current ones, let alone current ones being of different beliefs with regards to the nature of jesus, and/or the will of jesus.
And most importantly we must know that post war christians were alienating jews so much they ended up changing core jewish beliefs such that the Romans accept the new cooked religion.
Xchristian
Active Member
I would say Kabbalistic גלגול הנשמות thoughts are too recent for that.
They surely believed in reincarnation, the scriptures are obvious ...
I would even put it to be pre-Jewish war 67-74 CE concepts.
However, whoever put ink to paper is certainly a very old person,
it goes to early first century,
as the church distanced itself as much as possible from anything Jewish and that includes reincarnation.
You can tell it's been painted over in the 3rd-4th centuries because of the implications it would make naturally for them.
If you read the concept of the 'soul' in the new testament, you will surely smell reincarnation.
It's all over the place in Paul's writings, and very heavy in other writings, but they ironed over it to make it sound acceptable.
However, they played it wrong by resorting to using unclear and mysterious expressions which if cornered they would find no answer to.
Let's give you a few examples ..
what is the 'soul' and what is the 'ghost' and what is the 'mind' and what is the 'logos'?
I am very sure jesus wasn't conversant in Greek, and the receptors of the message 'early first century CE were not Greek speaking,
Actually, John to whom the fourth gospel is attributed, is an unlearned ignorant person:
[Acts 4:13][ 13 Now when they beheld the boldness of Peter and John, and had perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.]
How can an unlearned and ignorant person talk of the 'logos'?
Assuming he took intensive night courses in Greek, would you think he developed so far, he actually became incomprehensible to people to whom he wrote in the first place?
Paul was adamant that people were 'resurrected' in spiritual bodies ..
[Cor1 15:49][ 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.]
and ...
[Cor1 15:51][ 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,]
The other body is a spiritual body ... not a body like what we have.
Then if you go to after the war scriptures you will notice that in order to create a real jesus who talks and walks .. perhaps to silence the docetics, (who believed that jesus fell from heaven and took on an apparent body) they made jesus rise with a body with holes in it and so on.
Writings were made not to tell the truth as much as to silence opponents ..
Nowadays xtians believe they will not have a body at all ...
They surely believed in reincarnation, the scriptures are obvious ...
I would even put it to be pre-Jewish war 67-74 CE concepts.
However, whoever put ink to paper is certainly a very old person,
it goes to early first century,
as the church distanced itself as much as possible from anything Jewish and that includes reincarnation.
You can tell it's been painted over in the 3rd-4th centuries because of the implications it would make naturally for them.
If you read the concept of the 'soul' in the new testament, you will surely smell reincarnation.
It's all over the place in Paul's writings, and very heavy in other writings, but they ironed over it to make it sound acceptable.
However, they played it wrong by resorting to using unclear and mysterious expressions which if cornered they would find no answer to.
Let's give you a few examples ..
what is the 'soul' and what is the 'ghost' and what is the 'mind' and what is the 'logos'?
I am very sure jesus wasn't conversant in Greek, and the receptors of the message 'early first century CE were not Greek speaking,
Actually, John to whom the fourth gospel is attributed, is an unlearned ignorant person:
[Acts 4:13][ 13 Now when they beheld the boldness of Peter and John, and had perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.]
How can an unlearned and ignorant person talk of the 'logos'?
Assuming he took intensive night courses in Greek, would you think he developed so far, he actually became incomprehensible to people to whom he wrote in the first place?
Paul was adamant that people were 'resurrected' in spiritual bodies ..
[Cor1 15:49][ 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.]
and ...
[Cor1 15:51][ 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,]
The other body is a spiritual body ... not a body like what we have.
Then if you go to after the war scriptures you will notice that in order to create a real jesus who talks and walks .. perhaps to silence the docetics, (who believed that jesus fell from heaven and took on an apparent body) they made jesus rise with a body with holes in it and so on.
Writings were made not to tell the truth as much as to silence opponents ..
Nowadays xtians believe they will not have a body at all ...
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thanks for the explanation! I really don't know if the new testament teaches reincarnation or not, I've focused on hinduism lately and I had problems accepting reincarnation, but maybe you're right,, I like the kabbalistic (jewish) concept of gilgul better because it's not so fatalistic (is that the right word lol? 
).
).Xchristian
Active Member
check this book:
Reincarnation,
Christianity and the
Dogma of the Church
Unmasking the Myth that the
Reincarnation Doctrine would be Unchristian
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ChristRein.pdf
However, I doubt very much that anyone has got the full truth, it's there, but it's been washed over so many times.
Xchristian
Active Member
by the way ///
have you ever thought of the clause: 'eternal life'?
jesus and his followers knew full well that it's an impossibility, even Eleazer whom was raised from the dead, simply died again!
So there's nothing such as 'eternal life' .. and it has to be re-explained in life of this 'reincarnation' process.
have you ever thought of the clause: 'eternal life'?
jesus and his followers knew full well that it's an impossibility, even Eleazer whom was raised from the dead, simply died again!
So there's nothing such as 'eternal life' .. and it has to be re-explained in life of this 'reincarnation' process.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
I am curious to know what you mean here Xchristian.
Why is eternal life impossible? What if the word is not literally "eternal" but "everlasting"? Would that make a difference?
Shermana
Heretic
According to Josephus, the Pharisees pretty much believed that the souls of the good came back in new bodies.
Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-Critical Study - Steve Mason - Google Books
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
" The Hebrew term ne′tsach can also denote everlastingness. Among the ways it may be rendered are forever (Job 4:20; 14:20), perpetually (Isa 57:16), and always (Psalm 9:18). Sometimes ne′tsach and ‛oh·lam′ occur in parallel (Psalm 49:8, 9), or the terms ne′tsach and ‛adh appear together. (Amos 1:11) All three words are found at Psalm 9:5, 6: You have rebuked nations . . . Their name you have wiped out to time indefinite [le‛oh·lam′], even forever [wa·‛edh′]. O you enemy, your desolations have come to their perpetual [la·ne′tsach] finish.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word ai·on′ may denote a time period of indefinite or indeterminate length, a period of remote, but not endless, time. For example, at Luke 1:70 and Acts 3:21 ai·on′ can be rendered of old, of old time, in ancient times. (RS, NW, AT) Often, however, the context suggests that ai·on′ is to be understood to refer to a time period of undefined length because of such period being endless in duration. (Lu 1:55; John 6:50, 51; 12:34; 1Jo 2:17) Similarly, the adjective ai·o′ni·os (drawn from ai·on′
can, as is evident from the context, signify both long lasting (Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2) and everlasting. (Matt 18:8; 19:16, 29) Another Greek adjective, a·i′di·os, specifically means eternal or everlasting.Rom 1:20; Jude 6." (Excerpts from Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 WTBTS)Do you agree with this definition Shermana?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Would this not harmonize with the Bible's teaching of the resurrection? (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15)
The "spirit" (breath) is returned to man when he is resurrected bodily in the 'new earth' on the 'last day'. (John 11:23, 24; 2 Pet 3:13)
Just as God breathed life into the body of Adam, so God will recreate the bodies of all who have lived and died and re-animate them with the "breath of life".
This does not require an immortal soul. Man is a soul, he does not possess one. The soul dies (Ezek 18:4) The resurrection is what gives life back to the dead.
Hi Xchristian,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
What makes you so certain that Lazarus died twice?
If Lazarus only died once, then could we not say that perpetual life does now exist?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
What makes you so certain that Lazarus died twice?
If Lazarus only died once, then could we not say that perpetual life does now exist?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Hi JayJayDee,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You correctly understand that men and women are souls. Death comes to a soul when the spirit is forced to leave our bodies.
I am curious, from whom did you receive your spirit which does now animate your flesh? Did you receive your spirit from your physical parents?
If not, how did spirit come to inhabit your flesh so that you did become a living soul?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You correctly understand that men and women are souls. Death comes to a soul when the spirit is forced to leave our bodies.
I am curious, from whom did you receive your spirit which does now animate your flesh? Did you receive your spirit from your physical parents?
If not, how did spirit come to inhabit your flesh so that you did become a living soul?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Xchristian
Active Member
If he died only once, he would have save the world from all the wars that happened because of jesus. He would be somewhere now sitting and laughing at people thinking ..
"I am the only proof that jesus existed, and look at those people who deny he ever existed."
"I know which books are authentic and which are apocrypha, .."
"I know ,,, I know ,,, I know .... "
That would have been the only reason to have him alive!
Yet he never participated ...
It's pretty much like he is one of those stones on the land of Palestine .. DEAD
Xchristian
Active Member
if the world can't believe there's a jesus because it's impossible for him to live 2000 years plus, how can they believe anyone lives eternally?
I just love the book of Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes 3
9 What does the worker gain from his struggles?(I) 10 I have seen the task that God has given people to keep them occupied.(J) 11 He has made everything appropriate[b] in its time.(K) He has also put eternity in their hearts,[c] but man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.(L) 12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and enjoy the[d] good life. 13 It is also the gift of God whenever anyone eats, drinks, and enjoys all his efforts.(M) 14 I know that all God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it.(N) God works so that people will be in awe of Him.(O) 15 Whatever is, has already been,(P) and whatever will be, already is. God repeats what has passed.[e]
16 I also observed under the sun: there is wickedness at the place of judgment and there is wickedness at the place of righteousness.(Q) 17 I said to myself, God will judge the righteous and the wicked,(R) since there is a time for every activity and every work.(S) 18 I said to myself, This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals.(T) 19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same.(U) As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.(V) 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities(W) because that is his reward. For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?[f](X)
Are we like animals, in that we have the concept of eternity within our minds? We can certainly indulge our destructive animal urges. (Would that mean that indulging those destructive animal urges would mean the spirit returns to the earth? {To be resown in another earthly body, perhaps?} Would contemplating spiritual things make a man's spirit return to the spirit, rather than the earth, to be resown into a spiritual body, rather than an earthly body? As the scriptures says, "Who knows?" 
Ecclesiastes 3
9 What does the worker gain from his struggles?(I) 10 I have seen the task that God has given people to keep them occupied.(J) 11 He has made everything appropriate[b] in its time.(K) He has also put eternity in their hearts,[c] but man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.(L) 12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and enjoy the[d] good life. 13 It is also the gift of God whenever anyone eats, drinks, and enjoys all his efforts.(M) 14 I know that all God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it.(N) God works so that people will be in awe of Him.(O) 15 Whatever is, has already been,(P) and whatever will be, already is. God repeats what has passed.[e]
16 I also observed under the sun: there is wickedness at the place of judgment and there is wickedness at the place of righteousness.(Q) 17 I said to myself, God will judge the righteous and the wicked,(R) since there is a time for every activity and every work.(S) 18 I said to myself, This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals.(T) 19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same.(U) As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.(V) 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities(W) because that is his reward. For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?[f](X)