Reincarnation

[Runewolf1973]

But sometimes the form matters.

If you carefully burn a copy of Hamlet so that none of the products of combustion is lost, doyou still have a copy of the play? You can measure the mass and see that not one particle is missing, but you've still lost the thing that made it what it was: its arrangement.

That is a good point and I will not argue the fact that reincarnation seems physically improbable. I don't know why certain things might retain a non-physical form while others do not. Perhaps it is some small remnant (like a memory of sorts) of a previous conscious existence that remains entact. Part of the consciousness perhaps. I don't know nor can I explain it fully, but based on what I have seen or experienced personally, it is something that I do believe very strongly in.

 

[George-ananda]

Doesn't this suggest that the "you" required for you to reincarnate is an illusion?

Correct, there is no permanent "you" to reincarnate. Think of the concept of the reincarnating soul like the ever-changing body. The soul changes constantly from minute to minute but just like with the physical body we think of the person being the same person the next minute; the reincarnating soul is thought of as the same soul the next minute although actually always changing. Only Brahman is permanent.

 

[Quintessence]

Correct, there is no permanent "you" to reincarnate. Think of the concept of the reincarnating soul like the ever-changing body. The soul changes constantly from minute to minute but just like with the physical body we think of the person being the same person the next minute; the reincarnating soul is thought of as the same soul the next minute although actually always changing. Only Brahman is permanent.

I'm thinking the concept of Brahman is pretty similar to what I tend to call the Weave in my own path. But perhaps not. The Weave is basically my shorthand to refer to the interconnected whole of reality (and by reality, I don't just mean what the materialists would - I mean physical stuff, ideas, abstractions... everything that can be experienced or known in any way). Is it similar or am I totally shooting blanks here?

 

[George-ananda]

I'm thinking the concept of Brahman is pretty similar to what I tend to call the Weave in my own path. But perhaps not. The Weave is basically my shorthand to refer to the interconnected whole of reality (and by reality, I don't just mean what the materialists would - I mean physical stuff, ideas, abstractions... everything that can be experienced or known in any way). Is it similar or am I totally shooting blanks here?

Well, I wish I had something more profound to say to tie it all together but the Weave is on the right track in that it's all an interconnected One.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you believe in it?
Why?

Yes, I do believe in reincarnation, but with a caveat.
I do not accept reincarnation as it is generally perceived. It is not a straight line ascension shtick from the gross to the purported divine. If anything, it's a very serious game of hop scotch where the individual quite literally goes wherever their interests take them. It is always a bit of a "craps shoot" due to the unpredictable nature of probability, as there are never any guarantees.

Why do I believe? Hmmmm. That is for me to know and for you to discover. :drool:

 

[jtartar]

Do you believe in it?
Why?

sandandfoam,
By incarnation, I assume that you mean to continually go through cycles of life and death, with each incarnation you reach a higher or lower state, depending on your actions while alive.
I have found absolutely no reason to believe in this concept. I get my philosophy from the Bible, and the Bible allows for no such process.
First, the Bible tells us that when a person dies, he stays in the grave until he is resurrected, by Jesus, through God's power, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15.
As for death, it seems that mankind is no different from the animals, he goes back to the dust, from which we are made, Gen 2:7, 3:19, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10.
In Job we are told that, if we are resurrected it will only be that we are called by God, Job 14:10-15.
An even more pointed scripture is found at Rom 9:11, which is speaking about the son's of Rebecca and Isaac, which were Jacob and Esau. The Bible tells us here that this was before they were BORN and Had done NOTHING, either good or bad. If they had been alive before it is certain they would have done SOMETHING. To me this proves, beyond a doubt, they had NOT lived before. No reincarnation!!!
The only person that I know of that could be reincarnated is Jesus Christ. When he was resurrected, he took on a fleshly body, after he was resurrected as a spirit, 1Pet 3:18. The fact is any of the ones that are going to heaven to be Kings and Priests with Jesus could use reincarnation to come down from heaven to visit their earthly subjects, Rev 20:4-7, 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 2Tim 2:12, 1Cor 4:8.

 

[Nakosis]

Do you believe in it?
Why?

I have very vivid memories of other lives. And, I don't know where to go is we can't rely on experiences which seem real at least to ourselves.

Maybe insanity or a case of fooling oneself but that is who I am. While I am very self-critical and don't take any of it for granted as fact, I need to rely on the reality that seems apparent to me.

And so what? I may have some view of reality that has no other foundation other then personal experience but I get by well enough in the world. I deal with my responsibilities and obligations. If I believed that God lived on the moon and I must pray ten times a day so when I die I will go to the moon what does that matter?

I think what matters is how we treat one another. I don't need you to believe what I believe to treat you decently and fairly. I think individually a person should strive to treat others equally, regardless of their beliefs. You believe in "whatever". Hey, that's interesting. Lets go have a beer.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe in some sort of recycling or rebirth of whatever it is that gives us sentience. I think of this recycling like the stellar life cycle. Elements come together to form a star, which lives, dies, and in a supernova (for stars big enough, as an example) blast their elements into space to repeat the cycle. Part of the star still exists as its elements and the new ones it creates, but it creates a mostly new star. But there is no one thing that makes a star, nor does a star carry all of its parts into the next stellar birth. Weird? So sue me.

 

[Nakosis]

Correct, there is no permanent "you" to reincarnate. Think of the concept of the reincarnating soul like the ever-changing body. The soul changes constantly from minute to minute but just like with the physical body we think of the person being the same person the next minute; the reincarnating soul is thought of as the same soul the next minute although actually always changing. Only Brahman is permanent.

Yes I don't see these others "lives" as me. They are other people obviously physical and mentally. But, Hey... I'm not physically or mentally the same person that was originally born in this life.

There is continual change and a perception of self that has an apparent continuation. What actually continues and if there is anything of that apparent self that has any permanence, I've no idea. Nothing physical, nothing mental, nothing one can put their finger on to say this is the core essence of what that self is.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Yes, I do believe in reincarnation, but with a caveat.
I do not accept reincarnation as it is generally perceived. It is not a straight line ascension shtick from the gross to the purported divine. If anything, it's a very serious game of hop scotch where the individual quite literally goes wherever their interests take them. It is always a bit of a "craps shoot" due to the unpredictable nature of probability, as there are never any guarantees.

Why do I believe? Hmmmm. That is for me to know and for you to discover. :drool:

This is how I see reincarnation as well. There is nothing divine about it. It is like a simple process going and return like the tides or the seasons.

 

[Levite]

Would you mind posting what the theological issues are?

The primary issue for me is that while I believe that evil acts can and should have consequences attached to them, I do not believe in the concept of afterlife punishment per se.

Judaism has no doctrine of Hell, or of eternal damnation, like Christianity does-- and if I recall right, I think Islam has some variation of the concept also. There is a doctrine that some embrace called Gehinnom, which is technically not a Hell but a Purgatory: souls who die with unresolved sins (which is most, if not all, souls) are said to spend a finite duration in Gehinnom "working off" their sins. Even among its adherents, there is no agreement as to precisely what happens in Gehinnom, but the general agreement seems to be that it is unpleasant, and some of the more...extreme...versions of the doctrine paint very gruesome pictures indeed.

However, many of the theological strands that are core to my understanding of God are those which reinforce strongly that God is infinitely merciful and forgiving, and makes endless room for people to repent for wrongdoing. Afterlife punishment, IMO, is incompatible with such a God.

Yet I still believe that evil deserves consequences, and even a loving God would see that such consequences occur. How to resolve the quandary?

Added to these issues are my belief that God created us-- among other purposes-- in order to gain deep wisdom and compassion, and to teach the same to others; which I do not believe that most people sufficiently accomplish in one lifetime. Also, Jews are commanded to keep all 613 commandments, yet this is impossible in any one lifetime, as some are for men, some for women, some only for kohanim (levitical priests) and levi'im (levites), some only function during the time of the Temple, and so forth. Thirdly, while I believe strongly in human free will, I also believe in something along the lines of a divine plan-- yet those seem to be irreconcilable to one another.

My resolution to all of these is gilgulei neshamot.

If a person sins and dies before completing teshuvah (the formal process of repentance for sin, which includes not only confession to God, commitment not to do the same thing again, and participation in Yom Kippur, but also in apologizing to wronged parties, admitting guilt and accepting consequences of one's actions, and making any and all possible reparations for what one has done), they have a "debt of sin" on their "cosmic scales." This "debt of sin" can only be balanced out by accomplishing positive actions that inversely parallel the negative actions done in a former life. So one is reborn and reborn again until one has not only balanced out the negative actions of former lives with positive actions, but one has "tipped the scales" in favor of positive actions.

At the same time, if one is Jewish, one is also reborn as many times as is necessary for one to complete all 613 commandments.

And one is also reborn as many times as is necessary for one to voluntarily and of free will choose to do whatever action or actions the divine plan calls for us to do.

Finally, one is born and reborn as many times as is necessary to maximize one's attainment of wisdom and compassion. At that point, one can choose to move on, out of the cycle of rebirth, into Olam ha-Ba (The World To Come, essentially our version of Heaven), or to continue being reborn in order to pass on what one has learned-- the memories of which constitute part of our primal subconscious, never to be fully recalled in clarity during any particular lifetime, but serving as the most foundational layer of our primal psychological impulses.

Sooner or later, as I construct this theology, I assume that everyone is capable of moving on to Olam ha-Ba. No afterlife punishment is necessary, because rather than punishment, one is given potentially infinite opportunities for teshuvah (de facto if not de jure), and what is more, infinite opportunities to learn from their mistakes, which is something afterlife punishment cannot accomplish.

and thanks for this I have never heard of it before - if you know of a good synopsis could you post a link?

Probably the best basic and simple summary online that I've seen is the one at Jewish Virtual Library. Though of course even that misses a few of the more complex elements and sundry variations of even classical ideas of gilgulei neshamot; and my version is slightly different than any of those.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The primary issue for me is that while I believe that evil acts can and should have consequences attached to them, I do not believe in the concept of afterlife punishment per se.

Judaism has no doctrine of Hell, or of eternal damnation, like Christianity does-- and if I recall right, I think Islam has some variation of the concept also. There is a doctrine that some embrace called Gehinnom, which is technically not a Hell but a Purgatory: souls who die with unresolved sins (which is most, if not all, souls) are said to spend a finite duration in Gehinnom "working off" their sins. Even among its adherents, there is no agreement as to precisely what happens in Gehinnom, but the general agreement seems to be that it is unpleasant, and some of the more...extreme...versions of the doctrine paint very gruesome pictures indeed.

However, many of the theological strands that are core to my understanding of God are those which reinforce strongly that God is infinitely merciful and forgiving, and makes endless room for people to repent for wrongdoing. Afterlife punishment, IMO, is incompatible with such a God.

Yet I still believe that evil deserves consequences, and even a loving God would see that such consequences occur. How to resolve the quandary?

Added to these issues are my belief that God created us-- among other purposes-- in order to gain deep wisdom and compassion, and to teach the same to others; which I do not believe that most people sufficiently accomplish in one lifetime. Also, Jews are commanded to keep all 613 commandments, yet this is impossible in any one lifetime, as some are for men, some for women, some only for kohanim (levitical priests) and levi'im (levites), some only function during the time of the Temple, and so forth. Thirdly, while I believe strongly in human free will, I also believe in something along the lines of a divine plan-- yet those seem to be irreconcilable to one another.

My resolution to all of these is gilgulei neshamot.

If a person sins and dies before completing teshuvah (the formal process of repentance for sin, which includes not only confession to God, commitment not to do the same thing again, and participation in Yom Kippur, but also in apologizing to wronged parties, admitting guilt and accepting consequences of one's actions, and making any and all possible reparations for what one has done), they have a "debt of sin" on their "cosmic scales." This "debt of sin" can only be balanced out by accomplishing positive actions that inversely parallel the negative actions done in a former life. So one is reborn and reborn again until one has not only balanced out the negative actions of former lives with positive actions, but one has "tipped the scales" in favor of positive actions.

At the same time, if one is Jewish, one is also reborn as many times as is necessary for one to complete all 613 commandments.

And one is also reborn as many times as is necessary for one to voluntarily and of free will choose to do whatever action or actions the divine plan calls for us to do.

Finally, one is born and reborn as many times as is necessary to maximize one's attainment of wisdom and compassion. At that point, one can choose to move on, out of the cycle of rebirth, into Olam ha-Ba (The World To Come, essentially our version of Heaven), or to continue being reborn in order to pass on what one has learned-- the memories of which constitute part of our primal subconscious, never to be fully recalled in clarity during any particular lifetime, but serving as the most foundational layer of our primal psychological impulses.

Sooner or later, as I construct this theology, I assume that everyone is capable of moving on to Olam ha-Ba. No afterlife punishment is necessary, because rather than punishment, one is given potentially infinite opportunities for teshuvah (de facto if not de jure), and what is more, infinite opportunities to learn from their mistakes, which is something afterlife punishment cannot accomplish.



Probably the best basic and simple summary online that I've seen is the one at Jewish Virtual Library. Though of course even that misses a few of the more complex elements and sundry variations of even classical ideas of gilgulei neshamot; and my version is slightly different than any of those.

Evil acts do have consequences attached to them. According to the spirits that my girlfriend sees and communicates with, you can be prevented from reincarnating into a new life and in that way forever bound to that earthbound plane.

 

[Levite]

Evil acts do have consequences attached to them. According to the spirits that my girlfriend sees and communicates with, you can be prevented from reincarnating into a new life and in that way forever bound to that earthbound plane.

I respect that theology; it just isn't mine.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I respect that theology; it just isn't mine.

In the same way I respect yours, it just isn't mine.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I believe in reincarnation, or rebirth. It's the only afterlife scenario that makes the most sense to me. Living only one life and your eternal destiny depending on what you did in a very short time on Earth is ridiculous to me. I think the point of life is to learn and experience. I think you have a choice whether to come back or not. Some of us might need a break. Then there's some of us who are lost and have created our own personal hells so they would need to work that out. Some of us become traumatized and need time to work that out, etc. It's not a simple thing.

 

[Sees]

A similar thread with some good feedback http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/158837-reincarnation.html

I believe reincarnation/rebirth is true stuff. The specifics don't matter. I don't believe the body-mind trap is real or all parts of us dissolve when body ceases to function...based off experience and pondering both - not just pondering or because so and so person/s or texts say whatever.

Again, being opposed to anything mysterious or currently not able to be tested isn't skepticism. As cheesy as it sounds, how open or shut your mind is to things does influence the type of experiences you have and of course perception of them. Opposition without an open mind is just opposition.

 

[Levite]

In the same way I respect yours, it just isn't mine.

Of course! :yes:

 

[George-ananda]

Evil acts do have consequences attached to them. According to the spirits that my girlfriend sees and communicates with, you can be prevented from reincarnating into a new life and in that way forever bound to that earthbound plane.

I like most of what you say but I don't agree with any 'forever bound' thinking. I can believe in 'temporarily bound for quite awhile' which is a big difference.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I like most of what you say but I don't agree with any 'forever bound' thinking. I can believe in 'temporarily bound for quite awhile' which is a big difference.

I agree with you. That was my wording mistake. What you say is more accurate.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Do you believe in it?
Why?

This isn't exactly reincarnation, but I think it's kind of cool that nature is always recycling Carbon atoms, and so both you and I could contain the same atoms that a dinosaur once had millions of years ago.