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Relational Quantum Mechanics and Event Centric View

sayak83

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Staff member
Premium Member
Yep. That is my problem. QM is more and more becoming an unscientific theory. Aside from my personal, philosophical problem that I'm sure I can overcome, I fear the implication non scientists will draw from it. There are already too many people who deny objective realty. With this interpretation they'll feel even more encouraged.
Here is a full philosophically oriented discussion of Relational Quantum Mechanics
Relational Quantum Mechanics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
For the more mathematically inclined, here is the full non-relativistic reformulation of QM from the relational interpretation
A Relational Formulation of Quantum Mechanics | Scientific Reports
Note: I have not read then yet in detail and may not fully understand much of it. Putting it up for reference and discussion.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Yep. That is my problem. QM is more and more becoming an unscientific theory. Aside from my personal, philosophical problem that I'm sure I can overcome, I fear the implication non scientists will draw from it. There are already too many people who deny objective realty. With this interpretation they'll feel even more encouraged.


I would have thought that questioning everything, including what we mean by objective reality, would be a fundamental principle of scientific enquiry?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I would have thought that questioning everything, including what we mean by objective reality, would be a fundamental principle of scientific enquiry?
Yes and no. Yes, scientific enquiry is researching everything real. No, science is based (like any formal system) on a set of axioms. The moment one discards (has to) an axiom, the system is broken. Science without the axiom that reality is real is no longer science.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Yes and no. Yes, scientific enquiry is researching everything real. No, science is based (like any formal system) on a set of axioms. The moment one discards (has to) an axiom, the system is broken. Science without the axiom that reality is real is no longer science.


Well now. Quantum physicists are perhaps revealing to the modern world what Vedic philosophers intuited millennia ago; that there is no fixed point anywhere in the universe, no solid ground on which to construct our towering edifice of knowledge.

That everything is in flux, that all reality is relative - this in the end may be the only axiom.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
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Premium Member
Yep. That is my problem. QM is more and more becoming an unscientific theory. Aside from my personal, philosophical problem that I'm sure I can overcome, I fear the implication non scientists will draw from it. There are already too many people who deny objective realty. With this interpretation they'll feel even more encouraged.


I strongly disagree about it being non-scientific. It makes predictions that are verified by actual observations, sometimes to well over 10 decimal places of accuracy. It has made predictions that seem counter-intuitive, even to specialists, but that have been subsequently verified in detail (quantum eraser, Wigner's friend, etc).

But it is not a *classical* theory and what it tells us is that the universe doesn't play by the rules we thought it did.

Objective reality, to the extent it exists, comes about because of the large number of interactions that happen all the time. Things like the position of a dust speck are fixed by simple interaction with background photons. Macroscopic objects (including huge things like bacteria) are composed of so many quantum particles that the interactions that continually happen determine all the classical variables.

But I don't think it's a problem to worry about how the ignorant will misinterpret things. They *always* do. You can't prevent it. But that is also why it is good to have discussions like this one: to iron out what the details are so we can explain when others get it wrong.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes and no. Yes, scientific enquiry is researching everything real. No, science is based (like any formal system) on a set of axioms. The moment one discards (has to) an axiom, the system is broken. Science without the axiom that reality is real is no longer science.

And this interpretation *does* include a weak version of realism: there are interactions all the time that don't involve conscious observers. That makes the reality that is out there.

But what we *cannot* do, while staying consistent with observations unless a HUGE amount of metaphysical baggage comes along (beables or multiverses). And it is consistency with observations that is the linchpin of science, not realism.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you know if anyone had ever tried to make a repeat double slit experiment?
I.e. double slit -> position detector -> double slit -> screen.
The second double slit should lead to an interference pattern if the decoherence from the position measurement is only temporary.


In almost every possible combination. Very early on, having multiple double slits was done, with rotation of the direction of the slits from one to the next. Position detection at every stage was done.

A 'position measurement' that is accurate enough to distinguish between the slits will destroy the interference patterns. If the position detection is NOT accurate enough to distinguish the two slits, there *will* be an interference pattern, the strength of which depends on just how much distinction is made.

In your scenario, there would be an interference pattern: each new double slit produces one, which can be destroyed by position detection.

It isn't a 'decoherence' from the position measurement, but rather the diffraction by the double slit that gives rise to the interference pattern.

It is possible to have a beam go through a double slit, select from an interference 'peak', send the result to another double slit, and still have a full interference pattern. But, if you do a position measurement *after* the last double slit, the interference pattern goes away.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you saying that the wave function describes the relation between one interaction and the next, rather than information about an entity that continues between interactions?

Yes. And that is clear even in the wave function formulation. The observations are operators done on that wave function that yield probabilities for the different possible measurements. That wave function carries the information about what future observations can be.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I just skimmed the paper and found it quite nice.

I have thought for quite some time that classical metaphysics needs to be modified because of discoveries in physics over the last century or so. This paper seems to get the ball rolling in that direction.

Another aspect of this is that the 'wave function' is NOT given ontological weight. So questions of collapse are simply not relevant. Instead, and in accordance with how Heisenberg originally formulated QM, the interaction becomes dominant and the question is how the spectra of operators related to observables change over time. Also, especially in regard to Wigner's friend, the value of variables depends on what *other* system an interaction is with. Different observational systems will get different results.

I think the main difficulty people will have is the denial of strong realism: variables simply don't have meaning other than in interactions. There is still a weak realism: interactions still happen that are not interactions with conscious entities, thereby giving values to variables even if not observed by a conscious observer. But there is no 'unified viewpoint' that works for all observing systems.
The last line is for me the most compelling idea. It seems to resolve at a stroke all the spooky action at a distance stuff - and it is sort of intuitive, given how we now see the world relativistically.
Yes. And that is clear even in the wave function formulation. The observations are operators done on that wave function that yield probabilities for the different possible measurements. That wave function carries the information about what future observations can be.
Sure. I suppose what I have trouble with is that the wave function carries information for the next interaction of something.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The last line is for me the most compelling idea. It seems to resolve at a stroke all the spooky action at a distance stuff - and it is sort of intuitive, given how we now see the world relativistically.

Sure. I suppose what I have trouble with is that the wave function carries information for the next interaction of something.
We can say that the wavefunction encapsulates the information about the constraints that the previous event has created on the characteristics of the next event.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
We can say that the wavefunction encapsulates the information about the constraints that the previous event has created on the characteristics of the next event.
The constraints on what, though? Don't we still speak of the constraints on, say, an electron, or a system comprising an electron and a nucleus, or something? What do we mean by "an electron", in the relational view?
 

Polymath257

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The constraints on what, though? Don't we still speak of the constraints on, say, an electron, or a system comprising an electron and a nucleus, or something? What do we mean by "an electron", in the relational view?

Back up a bit. What does it mean to 'detect an electron'?

It means you have some quantum system that supposedly 'has an electron' and another quantum system (the apparatus) that, when it interacts with the first system, changes state in a way that we read as saying 'there is an electron there'.

It is the interaction between the quantum system and the apparatus that defines what it means to detect an electron. The correlation between those systems is what determines whether the detection is 'valid' or not.

The interaction between those systems at one time affects whether a later system (apparatus) detect a spin or a charge or whatever.

The constraints are in what later interactions with different quantum systems will produce (a position on a dial, or a reading on an LED display, etc).

Even to 'produce an electron' means you have some apparatus that interacts with something to produce a result that affects whether or not later systems will 'detect electrons' (maybe as a dark spot on a screen).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Back up a bit. What does it mean to 'detect an electron'?

It means you have some quantum system that supposedly 'has an electron' and another quantum system (the apparatus) that, when it interacts with the first system, changes state in a way that we read as saying 'there is an electron there'.

It is the interaction between the quantum system and the apparatus that defines what it means to detect an electron. The correlation between those systems is what determines whether the detection is 'valid' or not.

The interaction between those systems at one time affects whether a later system (apparatus) detect a spin or a charge or whatever.

The constraints are in what later interactions with different quantum systems will produce (a position on a dial, or a reading on an LED display, etc).

Even to 'produce an electron' means you have some apparatus that interacts with something to produce a result that affects whether or not later systems will 'detect electrons' (maybe as a dark spot on a screen).
Sure, I get that. But what I suppose I am driving at is that to speak of an "interaction" presupposes there are entities that interact.

And what should we say, for instance, when an electron in an atom interacts with a photon enters a new state. Can we say the electron is in an excited state? If we do, then we are assuming something continues...... until the next interaction (e.g. with the vacuum) causing the emission of a photon [and the return of the electron to a "ground state"?].
 

Polymath257

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Sure, I get that. But what I suppose I am driving at is that to speak of an "interaction" presupposes there are entities that interact.

Yes, the quantum systems are what interact.

And what should we say, for instance, when an electron in an atom interacts with a photon enters a new state. Can we say the electron is in an excited state? If we do, then we are assuming something continues...... until the next interaction (e.g. with the vacuum) causing the emission of a photon [and the return of the electron to a "ground state"?].

Not in the way you are used to. So, when you say the 'electron interacts with a photon and enters a new state', did you observe that state? Or did you turn on a laser and shine it on something? in the latter case, we can say something about whether a subsequent observation will detect a photon with an energy difference between two computed eigenvalues of some operator (the Hamiltonian). In the former, you have to detail exactly how you detected it (with what apparatus).

Shining the laser is an interaction between the quantum system 'containing the electron' and the quantum system of the laser (containing photons). That determines the probabilities of later interactions (with another apparatus) detecting photons or electrons.

But for the usual interpretations you may not be able to say that the electron is definitely in an excited state either. If an electron is in a superposition of a couple of states with different energies (like a distorted sp3 orbital), you would not be able to say that it 'is' in a s orbital or a p orbital. There is a probability of detecting either one, but it isn't legitimately in either. It is in a superposition. And that is one of the things this interpretation is trying to deal with.

Part of the difficulty is what constitutes a 'quantum system'. In this interpretation, quantum states are rather fluid and interactions with different systems may not give values of variables that are the same. But this is standard for relativistic physics anyway (what is the energy of a reaction that is in a spaceship moving at 90% of the speed of light?). So, the electron might be one quantum state. But so is the electron plus a nucleus. Or an atom plus a photon. And the *detecting* apparatus is also a quantum system.

Technically, this is how Heisenberg originally formulated his mechanics. The Schrodinger equation with a wave function was simply a way of taking operator theory and making it into differential equations. But, it is completely possible to do quantum mechanics without wave functions. What changes is the *operators*, not the wave function. And the eigenvalues of operators give the results of observations. The probabilities are determined by projection operators.

My biggest critique of this paper (and I may not have read far enough) is that it doesn't seem to give a way to 'translate between quantum apparatuses'. So, in special relativity, if I know the results of one observer and I know the relative motion, I can predict the results of a different observer. It would be nice to take the results of one interaction S-A and determine the results of a different interaction S-A' or S'-A or S'-A'. or, at least, to give correlations between the different interactions. This gets into issues with Wigner's friend, though.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a number of problems with relational quantum mechanics (RQM), perhaps foremost being how promising RQM seems at first to be compared to how I think it ends up fairing! In trying to retain too many desiderata one generally wants out of physical theories whilst “answering” or “resolving” seemingly paradoxical aspects of quantum theory, RQM ends up being largely incoherent. In this way it is not dissimilar to the kinds of approaches advocated by the founders of quantum theory that Rovelli took inspiration from. Bohr, for instance, tried to retain classical conceptions and indeed classical physics itself by more or less insisting that quantum theory had to be understood as a complement to the classical world we experience and attempting to recast seeming paradoxes into dualistic, complementary pictures that full apart all too easily. Heisenberg did likewise, but was more concerned with recovering rather than retaining classicality via the requirement of a classical cut.

Rovelli’s starting inspiration appears to be from the (classical) theories of relativity and the way in which these forced us to consider differences in observations as resulting necessarily from different “perspectives” (i.e., reference frames) that are rendered into a single coherent one when properly understood. But this is merely inspiration. Quantum mechanics, whatever else it may be, is a statistical theory used to calculate probabilities. Physical states encode information about preparation procedures and (together with the “observables”/operators) the probabilities associated with specific kinds of measurement outcomes given these preparations. Rovelli is quite clear about the priority that should be given to the probabilities encoded in the quantum formalisms. But exactly because of this statistical nature of quantum “systems” and the probabilistic nature of their “physical” variables, there is little or nothing akin to the kinds of observable-dependent quantities we find in relativity. There is all the difference in the world between quantities that differ depending upon extrinsic reference frames one associates with them and the intrinsic physical properties associated with physical systems and/or their states.

To tease out how this is so, it might be best to make some comparisons with other interpretations of QM and their issues.

The central problems of RQM can be, albeit overly simplistically, traced back to attempts to retain a realist, (mostly?) local, “ontological” interpretation of quantum theory (as a complete theory) without privileged observers, unobserved variables, or unobserved “worlds”.

These problems can rather easily seen (again simplistically as well as fairly naively) if one considers how RQM differs from the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) on the one hand and epistemic approaches such as QBism on the other. The MWI also assumes a realist stance and, like RQM, does not privilege any observer. It does this by rejecting the projection postulate or the collapse of the wavefunction. The result of these starting assumptions (and without further assumptions such as the hidden variables of Bohmian mechanics) is that every outcome of “measurement” or interaction must be realized, and we only observe particular outcomes because we find ourselves in a “branch” or “world” in which that particular outcome is realized.

The central problem with the many-worlds approach (apart from prioritizing a radically Copernican perspective in which we would opt to imagine countless and constantly emerging worlds rather than grant some privileged position to observers) is probabilities.

Imagine for a moment the probabilities associated with a coin toss. There are two outcomes. Assuming a fair coin, then we can assign 50/50 odds. Now imagine a quantum system prepared and measured in some experiment such that there are at least two possible outcomes. If, as in the case of a fair coin (or fair dice roll, or fairly dealt hands of cards, etc.), the distribution is uniform, deriving the probability distributions needed to use quantum theory without the Born rule and collapse is mostly straightforward.

But now imagine a biased coin rather than a fair one. Further, imagine that we do not know the actual probabilities apart from the fact that they are no longer 50/50. To figure out the probabilities, we need only to toss the coin many times and tally up the relative frequencies. This is what is done in QM in practice in order to determine the actual probabilities associated with measurements. And in general, probabilities of measurement outcomes in QM are not uniform.

For the MWI, this is a serious problem. The MWI assumes the actual realization of all possible outcomes and explains the fact that we only ever observe a single outcome by positing the “many-worlds” for which it is named: all outcomes occur, but in each “world” only one is realized and we always find ourselves in one of these.

Now go back to the biased coin and imagine that instead of obtaining heads or tails, each coin toss results in two “worlds”, one in which “heads” is observed and the other in which “tails” is. We can no longer calculate the probable outcomes, because we cannot observe (or even make much sense out of) the biased probabilities. Each toss results in a “heads” world and a “tails” world, so what would it mean for such a toss to have odds 70/30, or 80/20, or anything other than 50/50? This issue only gets more complicated with more realistic situations in theoretical and applied quantum mechanics.

Now we go back to RQM. RQM rejects both unobserved worlds and unobserved variables, the two most discussed, well-known, and perhaps most popular of the ontological, realist interpretations. Yet it too is a realist approach, which does not rely on consciousness or similar mechanisms to explain why quantum systems evolve according to dynamics that only hold if we don’t look. So how are such problems explained? By making everything an observer and all measured outcomes objectively real for that observer. The crucial component is the idea that measurements, probabilities, and indeed physical properties and facts about reality itself are all products of interactions among systems and relative to these. Thus interactions in RQM plays a role analogous to that of worlds in the MWI.

But here’s the rub: if facts are relative and the real properties of real systems given by variables that are likewise relative to relative states of the relative observers, the it isn’t at all clear that RQM actually explains anything or gives anything like a coherent account of how seeming paradoxes of quantum theory are to be resolved except by fiat. In this way it is not clear how RQM can be seen to offer anything to quantum foundations or to our understanding, as it can avoid basically any kind of no-go theorem or experimental test just because it uses the same quantum formalism and declares the observed results to be relatively true for ill-defined systems with “real” but theoretically unobservable properties. RQM “resolves” the extended Wigner’s friend by declaring that observer’s cannot consider their own state and thus Wigner’s friends outcome is “real” for the friend and the contrary and conflicting outcome Wigner finds “real” for Wigner. If the “friend” is a cat, then the only thing that forbids a dead cat from being found to be alive by Wigner is that the outcome of the quantum-mechanical poisoning apparatus the cat “observes” to have released the poison via decay or to not have released is not an interaction Wigner takes part in.

The crucial component to the Wigner’s friend version of the Schrödinger cat paradox is to give a version in which, rather than a clearly distinct macroscopic state that somehow “collapses” to a living or a dead cat upon observation, one has a friend who can say what the outcome of measurement was. There is a conflict between the state assignment of Wigner’s friend demanded by the formalism and that which it demands from Wigner. In its extended from, the problem is made testable (and has been in several experimental realizations) and rendered more problematic still. But these problems are “avoided” by RQM simply by stating that there is no problem with Wigner’s “facts” being in contradiction to his “friends” because dead friends tell no tales. How is this a better approach than that offered by Bohr and Heisenberg? How is it more coherent? Superior? What does it offer for those in quantum foundations to build off of or deepen our understanding of?

At least in the MWI, a lot of productive work has resulted in attempts to derive the Born rule without appealing to collapse (in fact, a lot of this work was taken from QBism or ended up used by QBists). In operational quantum mechanics, we can explore e.g., the implications of the most generalized models of measurement or what so-called “classical” toy models or theories either yield the same results as found in quantum theory or else point to crucial differences (such as the non-commutativity of quantum observables compared to their classical counterparts). Bohmian mechanics began as a clear counter-example to von Neumann’s original no-go theorem and offered a great deal of inspiration for e.g., understanding potentials in QM among other things.

In general, other well-known interpretations (no matter how distasteful I find them) have managed to yield productive results in the form of theorems proven, experiments proposed, or at least acknowledging the cost payed in terms of e.g., Bohmian nonlocality with its superfluous ontology, the vast and increasing unobservable worlds of the MWI, the approximate nature of an ultimately incomplete theory for those who reject quantum theory as fundamental, etc. RQM seems to offer relatively little beyond that which textbook quantum mechanics is based off of.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you know if anyone had ever tried to make a repeat double slit experiment? I.e. double slit -> position detector -> double slit -> screen.
It doesn't really work that way, but essentially yes. In fact, there are experimental realizations in which the experimenters are able to continually switch from observing "which path/slit" to restoring interference with the same system, or determining whether or not to measure "which path/slit" or to observe interference after the experiment has ended.
The first problem with repeating any measurement with photons is that they do not behave according to textbook QM, which is to say that the state of the system after measurement cannot be said to be in an eigenstate of the blah blah blah or anything else because the system is destroyed.
For electrons or other systems, the situation is different but so is the problem and one runs into the quantum zeno effect. But luckily for you, the quantum Zeno effect and experimental realizations show the result of repeatability here. Once one has made the necessary measurement to determine "Which path/slit" an electron went through by measuring position, then the coherent terms necessary for the interference effect are destroyed.
The second double slit should lead to an interference pattern if the decoherence from the position measurement is only temporary.
That's not how decoherence works.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have a number of problems with relational quantum mechanics (RQM), perhaps foremost being how promising RQM seems at first to be compared to how I think it ends up fairing! In trying to retain too many desiderata one generally wants out of physical theories whilst “answering” or “resolving” seemingly paradoxical aspects of quantum theory, RQM ends up being largely incoherent. In this way it is not dissimilar to the kinds of approaches advocated by the founders of quantum theory that Rovelli took inspiration from. Bohr, for instance, tried to retain classical conceptions and indeed classical physics itself by more or less insisting that quantum theory had to be understood as a complement to the classical world we experience and attempting to recast seeming paradoxes into dualistic, complementary pictures that full apart all too easily. Heisenberg did likewise, but was more concerned with recovering rather than retaining classicality via the requirement of a classical cut.

Rovelli’s starting inspiration appears to be from the (classical) theories of relativity and the way in which these forced us to consider differences in observations as resulting necessarily from different “perspectives” (i.e., reference frames) that are rendered into a single coherent one when properly understood. But this is merely inspiration. Quantum mechanics, whatever else it may be, is a statistical theory used to calculate probabilities. Physical states encode information about preparation procedures and (together with the “observables”/operators) the probabilities associated with specific kinds of measurement outcomes given these preparations. Rovelli is quite clear about the priority that should be given to the probabilities encoded in the quantum formalisms. But exactly because of this statistical nature of quantum “systems” and the probabilistic nature of their “physical” variables, there is little or nothing akin to the kinds of observable-dependent quantities we find in relativity. There is all the difference in the world between quantities that differ depending upon extrinsic reference frames one associates with them and the intrinsic physical properties associated with physical systems and/or their states.

To tease out how this is so, it might be best to make some comparisons with other interpretations of QM and their issues.

The central problems of RQM can be, albeit overly simplistically, traced back to attempts to retain a realist, (mostly?) local, “ontological” interpretation of quantum theory (as a complete theory) without privileged observers, unobserved variables, or unobserved “worlds”.

These problems can rather easily seen (again simplistically as well as fairly naively) if one considers how RQM differs from the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) on the one hand and epistemic approaches such as QBism on the other. The MWI also assumes a realist stance and, like RQM, does not privilege any observer. It does this by rejecting the projection postulate or the collapse of the wavefunction. The result of these starting assumptions (and without further assumptions such as the hidden variables of Bohmian mechanics) is that every outcome of “measurement” or interaction must be realized, and we only observe particular outcomes because we find ourselves in a “branch” or “world” in which that particular outcome is realized.

The central problem with the many-worlds approach (apart from prioritizing a radically Copernican perspective in which we would opt to imagine countless and constantly emerging worlds rather than grant some privileged position to observers) is probabilities.

Imagine for a moment the probabilities associated with a coin toss. There are two outcomes. Assuming a fair coin, then we can assign 50/50 odds. Now imagine a quantum system prepared and measured in some experiment such that there are at least two possible outcomes. If, as in the case of a fair coin (or fair dice roll, or fairly dealt hands of cards, etc.), the distribution is uniform, deriving the probability distributions needed to use quantum theory without the Born rule and collapse is mostly straightforward.

But now imagine a biased coin rather than a fair one. Further, imagine that we do not know the actual probabilities apart from the fact that they are no longer 50/50. To figure out the probabilities, we need only to toss the coin many times and tally up the relative frequencies. This is what is done in QM in practice in order to determine the actual probabilities associated with measurements. And in general, probabilities of measurement outcomes in QM are not uniform.

For the MWI, this is a serious problem. The MWI assumes the actual realization of all possible outcomes and explains the fact that we only ever observe a single outcome by positing the “many-worlds” for which it is named: all outcomes occur, but in each “world” only one is realized and we always find ourselves in one of these.

Now go back to the biased coin and imagine that instead of obtaining heads or tails, each coin toss results in two “worlds”, one in which “heads” is observed and the other in which “tails” is. We can no longer calculate the probable outcomes, because we cannot observe (or even make much sense out of) the biased probabilities. Each toss results in a “heads” world and a “tails” world, so what would it mean for such a toss to have odds 70/30, or 80/20, or anything other than 50/50? This issue only gets more complicated with more realistic situations in theoretical and applied quantum mechanics.

Now we go back to RQM. RQM rejects both unobserved worlds and unobserved variables, the two most discussed, well-known, and perhaps most popular of the ontological, realist interpretations. Yet it too is a realist approach, which does not rely on consciousness or similar mechanisms to explain why quantum systems evolve according to dynamics that only hold if we don’t look. So how are such problems explained? By making everything an observer and all measured outcomes objectively real for that observer. The crucial component is the idea that measurements, probabilities, and indeed physical properties and facts about reality itself are all products of interactions among systems and relative to these. Thus interactions in RQM plays a role analogous to that of worlds in the MWI.

But here’s the rub: if facts are relative and the real properties of real systems given by variables that are likewise relative to relative states of the relative observers, the it isn’t at all clear that RQM actually explains anything or gives anything like a coherent account of how seeming paradoxes of quantum theory are to be resolved except by fiat. In this way it is not clear how RQM can be seen to offer anything to quantum foundations or to our understanding, as it can avoid basically any kind of no-go theorem or experimental test just because it uses the same quantum formalism and declares the observed results to be relatively true for ill-defined systems with “real” but theoretically unobservable properties. RQM “resolves” the extended Wigner’s friend by declaring that observer’s cannot consider their own state and thus Wigner’s friends outcome is “real” for the friend and the contrary and conflicting outcome Wigner finds “real” for Wigner. If the “friend” is a cat, then the only thing that forbids a dead cat from being found to be alive by Wigner is that the outcome of the quantum-mechanical poisoning apparatus the cat “observes” to have released the poison via decay or to not have released is not an interaction Wigner takes part in.

The crucial component to the Wigner’s friend version of the Schrödinger cat paradox is to give a version in which, rather than a clearly distinct macroscopic state that somehow “collapses” to a living or a dead cat upon observation, one has a friend who can say what the outcome of measurement was. There is a conflict between the state assignment of Wigner’s friend demanded by the formalism and that which it demands from Wigner. In its extended from, the problem is made testable (and has been in several experimental realizations) and rendered more problematic still. But these problems are “avoided” by RQM simply by stating that there is no problem with Wigner’s “facts” being in contradiction to his “friends” because dead friends tell no tales. How is this a better approach than that offered by Bohr and Heisenberg? How is it more coherent? Superior? What does it offer for those in quantum foundations to build off of or deepen our understanding of?

At least in the MWI, a lot of productive work has resulted in attempts to derive the Born rule without appealing to collapse (in fact, a lot of this work was taken from QBism or ended up used by QBists). In operational quantum mechanics, we can explore e.g., the implications of the most generalized models of measurement or what so-called “classical” toy models or theories either yield the same results as found in quantum theory or else point to crucial differences (such as the non-commutativity of quantum observables compared to their classical counterparts). Bohmian mechanics began as a clear counter-example to von Neumann’s original no-go theorem and offered a great deal of inspiration for e.g., understanding potentials in QM among other things.

In general, other well-known interpretations (no matter how distasteful I find them) have managed to yield productive results in the form of theorems proven, experiments proposed, or at least acknowledging the cost payed in terms of e.g., Bohmian nonlocality with its superfluous ontology, the vast and increasing unobservable worlds of the MWI, the approximate nature of an ultimately incomplete theory for those who reject quantum theory as fundamental, etc. RQM seems to offer relatively little beyond that which textbook quantum mechanics is based off of.
RQM tells what the world must be like if traditional no-frill QM is true (without many worlds, unexplained collapses or pilot waves). All the other interpretations refuses to accept QM at face value and tries to modify it to conform to a preconceived notion of the world, with very questionable results. That is the difference.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes, the quantum systems are what interact.



Not in the way you are used to. So, when you say the 'electron interacts with a photon and enters a new state', did you observe that state? Or did you turn on a laser and shine it on something? in the latter case, we can say something about whether a subsequent observation will detect a photon with an energy difference between two computed eigenvalues of some operator (the Hamiltonian). In the former, you have to detail exactly how you detected it (with what apparatus).

Shining the laser is an interaction between the quantum system 'containing the electron' and the quantum system of the laser (containing photons). That determines the probabilities of later interactions (with another apparatus) detecting photons or electrons.

But for the usual interpretations you may not be able to say that the electron is definitely in an excited state either. If an electron is in a superposition of a couple of states with different energies (like a distorted sp3 orbital), you would not be able to say that it 'is' in a s orbital or a p orbital. There is a probability of detecting either one, but it isn't legitimately in either. It is in a superposition. And that is one of the things this interpretation is trying to deal with.

Part of the difficulty is what constitutes a 'quantum system'. In this interpretation, quantum states are rather fluid and interactions with different systems may not give values of variables that are the same. But this is standard for relativistic physics anyway (what is the energy of a reaction that is in a spaceship moving at 90% of the speed of light?). So, the electron might be one quantum state. But so is the electron plus a nucleus. Or an atom plus a photon. And the *detecting* apparatus is also a quantum system.

Technically, this is how Heisenberg originally formulated his mechanics. The Schrodinger equation with a wave function was simply a way of taking operator theory and making it into differential equations. But, it is completely possible to do quantum mechanics without wave functions. What changes is the *operators*, not the wave function. And the eigenvalues of operators give the results of observations. The probabilities are determined by projection operators.

My biggest critique of this paper (and I may not have read far enough) is that it doesn't seem to give a way to 'translate between quantum apparatuses'. So, in special relativity, if I know the results of one observer and I know the relative motion, I can predict the results of a different observer. It would be nice to take the results of one interaction S-A and determine the results of a different interaction S-A' or S'-A or S'-A'. or, at least, to give correlations between the different interactions. This gets into issues with Wigner's friend, though.
I think I need an example to see how this can work.

Suppose we take as a" quantum system" what conventionally we would call a hydrogen atom with its electron in the 2p (1/2) state. It can (conventionally, again) interact with a UV photon laser emitting 121.57 nm light or with vacuum fluctuations, to emit a 121.57nm photon, which we can detect. How do we describe the quantum state, if not in terms of an atom containing an electron?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think I need an example to see how this can work.

Suppose we take as a" quantum system" what conventionally we would call a hydrogen atom with its electron in the 2p (1/2) state. It can (conventionally, again) interact with a UV photon laser emitting 121.57 nm light or with vacuum fluctuations, to emit a 121.57nm photon, which we can detect. How do we describe the quantum state, if not in terms of an atom containing an electron?

Let's go through this the 'classical' way and see what happens. You start with a wave function describing a 2p state. The laser gives an interaction Hamiltonian that modifies that wave function. We compute the probability of detecting a photon later by doing an inner product with the new wave function and one describing a system with a photon. After the detection, the wave function will be one that is a projection to the state with that emitted photon.

Now, in the interaction picture, the wave function does not change. Instead, the operators representing observables change.

So, in this scenario, what we would compute is the probability that after we detect a 2p state that a subsequent measurement will detect an outgoing photon.

That means we start with a system that has already been projected to one that would reliably reveal a 2p state if measured. We then interact with it and a state representing the incoming photon. The interaction Hamiltonian here modifies the system in such a way that the *next* interaction, representing the detection of an outgoing photon, has a non-zero probability of detection.

In a sense, the 'atom with electron' are still there, but they are in the interaction Hamiltonians. Those Hamiltonians determine how the *detection operators* get modified. The eventual detection operator gives the values of observables and their probabilities. That operator exists at the beginning, but has zero probabilites for a detection. It is modified by the interactions until at the end it has a non-zero probability of a detection.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
RQM tells what the world must be like if traditional no-frill QM is true (without many worlds, unexplained collapses or pilot waves).
It doesn't. Firstly, it isn't even the only relational approach to quantum theory (and it isn't much of a relational interpretation at all, but that's less Rovelli's fault than it is the fact that "relative state" was taken and "relativistic quantum mechanics" is not an interpretation but (more or less) the reformulation of quantum theory with the appropriate invariances but without fields or the full-fledged (so-called) second quantization (the term relativistic quantum mechanics is most often used to refer to the modifications of NRQM we find in e.g., the Klein-Gordon equations or that of Dirac).
The Perspectivalist interpretation of Dieks (see e.g. "Quantum Mechanics and Perspectivalism") and his early structuralist-based work on quantum foundations are more in the general intellectual, philosophical, and scientific traditions associated with relationalist approaches and relationalism.
The same is true of the relational quantum interpretation of Dennis Dieks (see e.g., "Objectivity in Perspective: Relationism in the Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics"), or Teller's relational holism ("Relational Holism and Quantum Mechanics"), or Mermin's Ithaca interpretations with its "correlations without correlata" to name a few.
Then there are a slew of related approaches which do not posit any unobservable worlds or hidden variables and their offshoots, such as the modal interpretation or Healey's pragmatist approach or the informational approaches and corresponding interpretations not to mention a slew of others which claim to resolve the issues that RQM likewise claims via more coherent means that also ultimately (I think) fail, such as quantum logics or quantum probability-as-interpretation (i.e., we need to understand that quantum theory describes objective, real systems but that it does so according to non-classical logic or non-classical probability or both and that if we understand QM in these terms than all the problems evaporate).
None of these approaches, in my view, succeeds. In fact, Mermin is now firmly in the QBism camp. But the point is that Rovelli doesn't offer the only interpretation by any stretch of the imagination which claims to explain quantum mechanics without hidden variables or many-worlds or other such additions to the ontology and/or formalism.
Nor, strictly speaking, is it true that he proposes a no-collapse theory. The problem is that several of his claims about RQM seem to be at least in part in contradiction with one another (see e.g., the reply of the authors to Rovelli's response to their earlier work in "A reply to Rovelli's response to our "Assessing Relational Quantum Mechanics''"). RQM, according to Rovelli, is not a "collapse" interpretation because when he and those who follow RQM speak of the collapse of the wavefunction, they don't take the wavefunction as being physically "real" but rather encoding information or probabilities, or more rather it is understood epistemically. Thus the collapse is simply an updating rule as in QBism. But the problem is that RQM claims to be realist in nature. An there is supposed to be an ontology. Simply claiming that any and all systems count as observers and facts relative to the information obtained in interaction and ONLY via these processes doesn't make for a realist interpretation (at least not readily in any coherent manner) because the entirety of the formalism and the mechanisms and the outcomes of measurements and interactions are understood in terms of epistemic processes, relative facts, etc.
This is much like QBism, which is also a no-collapse approach to QM in the same way that RQM is, does not appeal to any hidden variables or many-worlds, and is entirely consistent. Where RQM and QBism differ is that QBism bites the bullet. In wanting to retain, as Rovelli does, the idea of the completeness of quantum theory, eschew hidden variables and worlds, and provide a consistent interpretation, QBists hold that quantum mechanics is about agents. Like Rovelli, probability is emphasized and the quantum states are understood epistemically. Unlike Rovelli and RQM, QBism doesn't try to claim that somehow realism and an ontology emerges magically from interactions and events (that are ill-defined in general in QM, and worse so when one attempts to go beyond using time as a parameter in either the observables or the states themselves). Instead, no ontology is assumed (but Fuchs at least and most of the Boston-based Qbists hold themselves and their interpretation to be realist, like Rovelli).
QBism does run into some of the same problems as RQM. In particular, it is hard to understand how a betting scheme, no matter how consistent it may be, can tell us much about the external, physical world. RQM has the same problem, but refuses to confront it. Instead, at every turn, fundamentally different descriptions of states and physical properties by observers are all supposed to be equally true because...they ought to be? Because that would be a nice world? It's not clear, but other than declaring that by fiat contradictory state assignments and descriptions of the same physical system are not in conflict no matter how clearly they actually are because agents cannot both observe the same contradictions at the same time is honestly little better of explanation for seeming paradoxes than what Bohr and other founders of the so-called Copenhagen interpretation had to offer.

All the other interpretations refuses to accept QM at face value and tries to modify it to conform to a preconceived notion of the world, with very questionable results. That is the difference.
This is simply wrong. I've listed many that do not do so, such as QBism, which takes much more at face value the quantum formalism as does indeed the view of the founders who believed quantum mechanics to be a complete and consistent theory (Bohr and Heisenberg especially, but later e.g., Wigner, Wheeler, etc.). Practically the entire slew of approaches that fall under the so-called informational interpretations and/or statistical interpretations (or ensemble) in the same vein as Ballentine but with the addition of irreducibility and completeness fit your description.
Also, RQM is and has been questioned and found wanting at a basic level of coherence. One can maintain (and people do) that it survives these critiques, but it is hard to see how such built-in, basic contradictions as 1) holding that states in QM are epistemic and evolution and collapse (or equivalents) are to be understood epistemically
and
2) RQM offers a coherent, realist interpretation of QM by claiming that the "relative facts" obtained by observers (which is everything) are objective in some sense and ontological in some sense because truth and facts can be objective as long as we understand that them to be objectively relative to interactions of a formalism that isn't ontological or really even external other than by the kind of fiat Bohr seemed to enjoy with his complementarity.
 
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