Religion - Some Questions

[Madsaac]

I would recommend studying some basic cultural anthropology and a more cross-cultural understanding of religion. While the narrative you present here is a popular one these days, it doesn't hold much water when looking at the origins of religion, its inseparability from culture, and the nature of the human. When humans stop being rational, thinking animals then and only then will there be no need of religion. For it is then humans won't be asking big, existential questions of life and living and myth and meaning.

Maybe I should, I don't think I'm any expert that's for sure but I do understand that religion can contribute to culture in various degrees.

In there lies the point, the larger the influence of religion on a culture, generally the larger the problems.

Cultures and societies moving away from religion allow humans to become more rational, thinking animals, not less. Problems and challenges are proven through science and research not emotion and ancient teachings. For example, accepting different races, sexual preferences, abortion, equality between men and women.

Governments do not legislate this stuff because its 'cool' they legislate because research and science say it makes for a better society.

 

[sayak83]

Wow, some great insights and plenty to reflect upon.

I just think religion is a thing of the past that was created to explain the unexplainable and to help 'galvanise' groups of people, with some thinking they are better than others in various ways. Eg, men and women

However today we can can explain the unexplainable and it has been proven that we can live together with respect without the need of religion

There is actually precious little evidence that religion was ever used in the past to explain natural phenomena. Rather it was believed that there was mind/conscious/spirit aspect behind every natural phenomena (either one or many) and religion was about establishing a relationship with it/him/her/them. This is still what religion is about.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not exactly - or at least, it depends on the religion.

Christianity and islam for example tend to teach an "us vs them" mentality. They also teach quite a bit intolerance like homophobia and are pretty mysoginistic.
They also teach that slavery is not a problem. There also isn't a lot of compassion in the stoning of "adulturers", chopping of the hands of thieves or eternal damnation for finite "crimes" -or worse: for the "crime" of disbelief

You'ld have to be cherry picking the scriptures to say otherwise.



That's assanine.
That's like saying that living in North Korea is like living in heaven unless you don't follow the rules of the Great Leader.
You could say the exact same thing about living under ANY dictator. "Follow the rules and you'll be fine."

This is why what theists, fundamentalists especially, call "love, compassion and mercy" is anything but that.
Mercy and compassion for example are completely void of meaning in the absence of transgressions and suffering.

Mercy is the suspension of justice. You can't have "perfect justice" and "mercy" exist simultanously.

It's like having courage in the absense of fear. Courage is only meaningful in specific context. Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is the will to go on in the presence of fear. Without such context, "courage" doesn't mean anything.


Same is true with mercy and compassion. Absent any transgressions or suffering, both mercy and compassion don't mean anything. There is no use for it.


Except when what the religion calls "love", is really hate.
Except when the religion teaches hate and masquerades it as "love".

I see the problem is with the people not the teachings. About harsh laws. In a desert environment where there are no police, courts, judges or rehabilitation centres, and roaming serial killers, rapists and thieves these laws had to both punish and deter. But they are not appropriate for this age I agree. Priests and religious leaders are responsible for creating hate and for their followers listening to them but the scriptures teach the opposte.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Religion may well teach love and compassion but it's not working. There are billions of people who could do with more love and compassion, the 'religious' know this and still do not enough. Should they/will they be judged harshly?

Also have not millions of people suffered under the guise of 'my religion is right and yours isn't?'

Yes true. People pay only lip service which renders any religion useless. Religions worth depends upon the believers being loving and kind to all. people judge hypocrisy rightfully by turning away. Instead of following the law of love, followers have followed their leaders who have led them into war and bloodshed.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But, Not all religion because from the pulpit in times of war false clergy use the pulpit as a political recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their sons on the Altar of War teaching that it is the same as the Altar of God, but it is Not.
Jesus nor his followers ever taught such things even though there were many issues between the Jews and Romans.
So, I'd like to add that such suffering is Not the fault of the biblical teachings of Jesus, but going against his teachings.

So wisely put. If Jesus taught to love and people kill that’s not Jesus fault at all.

 

[Rival]

Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring? Christians may share a little but nowhere near enough, not to the levels that Jesus would expect. And I know we all can't be perfect and Jesus will forgive us.......but if you really did want forgiveness, shouldn't you sacrifice so much more? I think your maker will not be happy with you at all.

I am a Communitarian. I believe everyone should essentially live like monastics or be hunter gatherer kinds.

Secondly, religion has caused an enormous amount of suffering throughout history. Surely this suggests it doesn't work.

It's longevity suggests it works better than any other alternative.

Human nature causes the suffering.

However you will say there are good things about religion, like community, caring, ritual, etc but can't community groups like your local football club, for example do what religion does. Such as community, caring, working for a similar cause, discipline etc. There are hundreds of groups like this which can make a person feel good and be part of something.

Yes.

It is not about feeling good though. It is about doing good.

And if you're worried about what happens after you die, can't you just believe what you want without being part of a religion

That seems rather arbitrary. A person with such a choice would had to have had no life experiences or culture at all.

I'm not worried about death. I'm concerned about an after death judgement, but which will go well for me if I do well here and make the best use of my time.

Finally, I think one of the large majority of people are religious is because there parents where, not because they 'found the light'

Not today. Maybe a few decades ago. In my country many people are atheists, including older people. Most people were not raised going to church or otherwise. It has been and still is a journey for me.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus was Not a socialist but a theocrat for God's Kingdom ( thy kingdom come....... ) - Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14
Jesus did Not feed everyone, Jesus did Not heal everyone. Jesus gave priority to teaching and preaching - Luke 4:43
That is because his teachings include Not just a temporary fix or help but a permanent solution.
Jesus gave a New Commandment found at John 13:34-35; 15:12 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has. In other words, we are now to love neighbor More than self, More than the old Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18.
So, Jesus' feeding and healing were a sample or a coming attraction, a preview on a small scale of what Jesus will be doing on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000 year reign over Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
As the neighborly Good Samaritan gave and showed demonstrating practical love to another in distress so can we.
On a one-on-one basis we can broaden out, widen out in showing practical love to others including telling others about the good news (gospel) about God's Kingdom coming as Jesus instructed his followers to do at Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8

Jesus gave a New Commandment found at John 13:34-35; 15:12 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has.

This is what is reflected in the verses in Phil 2:

• “In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:” (Phil 2:5)

 

[Quintessence]

Maybe I should, I don't think I'm any expert that's for sure but I do understand that religion can contribute to culture in various degrees.

In there lies the point, the larger the influence of religion on a culture, generally the larger the problems.

That's quite the claim. It doesn't hold more than a few ounces of water, but prejudice against and scapegoating of "religion" (as if that's a singular thing that can be meaningfully spoken about - HAH!) is, unfortunately all the rage these days. When you can name names and get specific your claim might hold more than a few ounces of water. That includes being specific about these "problems" as something is a "problem" because some human says it is - it's a value judgement and a subjective assessment. You need to present a "for the sake of discussion, we are going to consider X a problem even though different cultures do not agree and hold to different values." Next, connect the problem you have identified to a specific religious traditions and identify the specific teachings within that religion that would meaningfully contribute to said problem. Most importantly, name specific individual humans taking real-world actions that directly cause the problem you have identified.

Be specific.

Name names.

Cultures and societies moving away from religion allow humans to become more rational, thinking animals, not less. Problems and challenges are proven through science and research not emotion and ancient teachings.

Nonsense.

How much have you studied the history of philosophy, or the history of the intellectual traditions of the West just in general? Just start with this, for one example, and then add to that all the other tens and thousands of religions in the world:

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

I'm not even Christian, and I cannot just ignore the massive contributions Christianity made in promoting literacy, developing the Western intellectual tradition, fostering the sciences, and inspiring the arts. Sorry, but this is just nonsense.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring? ...

First, we need to understand that Jesus was a religious leader and not a policy wonk. Second, when it comes to money my take on Jesus' teachings was that money has it's problems but His focus was God's kingdom on earth:

King James Bible
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Add to that Jesus taught in the parable of the talents we must invest our wealth and the parable of the vineyard shows that equal pay for equal work was bogus.

ok, so we can agree that many can see these passages differently, but I contend that my views are reasonable.

 

[InChrist]

Hi, I don't hang around many religious people and it's hard to talk to them about the following so that's why I'm here, maybe to get some understanding.

Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring? Christians may share a little but nowhere near enough, not to the levels that Jesus would expect. And I know we all can't be perfect and Jesus will forgive us.......but if you really did want forgiveness, shouldn't you sacrifice so much more? I think your maker will not be happy with you at all.

Secondly, religion has caused an enormous amount of suffering throughout history. Surely this suggests it doesn't work.

However you will say there are good things about religion, like community, caring, ritual, etc but can't community groups like your local football club, for example do what religion does. Such as community, caring, working for a similar cause, discipline etc. There are hundreds of groups like this which can make a person feel good and be part of something.

And if you're worried about what happens after you die, can't you just believe what you want without being part of a religion

Finally, I think one of the large majority of people are religious is because there parents where, not because they 'found the light'

Thanks

Yes, Jesus, as well as Paul encouraged compassionate behavior, caring and sharing from a spiritually changed heart… not governmental, political force, theft, or manipulation. There’s no way Jesus would encourage political socialism.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. John 3:5-7

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a newcreation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

Religion is dangerous and has caused much suffering, as you’ve pointed out. Religion is human effort trying to follow rules and rituals to improve oneself or impress others or God. A life transformed and changed by Christ and lived for Jesus is not religion, but life that puts love for God and others first.
I believe only Jesus Christ rose from the dead and promises eternal life to those whose lives have been transformed, died to self and live new life in Him. Those who have been born again have “seen the light”. It’s not something one can be raised in or have passed on from their parents religion…again, because it’s not religion, but a new living, eternal relationship with the Creator of heaven and earth.

Welcome to RF.

 

[Ebionite]

Secondly, religion has caused an enormous amount of suffering throughout history. Surely this suggests it doesn't work.

It's a consequence of people lacking in judgment.

 

[Madsaac]

No, it suggests that religions like the ones that caused that much suffering don't work. What you're doing is an overgeneralization of all religions, assuming they're all basically the same. Perhaps it would serve you well to learn about my religion, Flawlessism (just google "Flawlessism" and click the link to the subreddit on Reddit.com), or maybe just research more religions in general, as it would seem that your awareness of this subject is very limited.

And even the religions which do cause so much suffering, your reasoning only implies they're a possible issue, after all, you could say that the long history of government indicates they don't work, yet what do we see happened? Governments didn't stop being a thing, they evolved, and just like governments, religions have evolved over time as well. Even without much research, your reasoning is very, very poor. So aside from just doing more research, I would also suggest not jumping to conclusions so easily since that does have a lot of evidence of leading to harm and rather pointless conflicts.

I did have a look and you're right, I'm talking about the traditional religions.

Remember though, governments contribute enormous amount of resources into science and research so we, societies can live better in a more harmoniously way. No religion does, including yours.

Religions would rather put their faith in books written thousands of years a go. And you don't need these books or different 'new' age' beliefs to be a loving and caring person.

 

[Madsaac]

Yes, Jesus, as well as Paul encouraged compassionate behavior, caring and sharing from a spiritually changed heart… not governmental, political force, theft, or manipulation. There’s no way Jesus would encourage political socialism.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. John 3:5-7

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a newcreation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

Religion is dangerous and has caused much suffering, as you’ve pointed out. Religion is human effort trying to follow rules and rituals to improve oneself or impress others or God. A life transformed and changed by Christ and lived for Jesus is not religion, but life that puts love for God and others first.
I believe only Jesus Christ rose from the dead and promises eternal life to those whose lives have been transformed, died to self and live new life in Him. Those who have been born again have “seen the light”. It’s not something one can be raised in or have passed on from their parents religion…again, because it’s not religion, but a new living, eternal relationship with the Creator of heaven and earth.

Welcome to RF.

Maybe he wouldn't encourage socialism but he would not look to fondly at the capitalist world western Christianity beholds.

I appreciate people who say they have found the light but how often does their behaviour really change. After you are transformed doesn't that mean you share your wealth with the needy? And love ALL your neighbours?

 

[Madsaac]

It's a consequence of people lacking in judgment.

So these religious people lacking in judgement will be damned

 

[Madsaac]

There is actually precious little evidence that religion was ever used in the past to explain natural phenomena. Rather it was believed that there was mind/conscious/spirit aspect behind every natural phenomena (either one or many) and religion was about establishing a relationship with it/him/her/them. This is still what religion is about.

I disagree.

There are many, many examples for example, explaining sight. In the past, didn't god do it in the past? But now we know there are many parts to the eye that work together.......

And now science and research have proven many more important issues relating to humans. For example, Apart form the obvious males and females are the same, not different as religion would have you believe.

Religion was used to explain environment, hormones, physical, human behaviour

 

[PearlSeeker]

Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring? Christians may share a little but nowhere near enough, not to the levels that Jesus would expect. And I know we all can't be perfect and Jesus will forgive us.......but if you really did want forgiveness, shouldn't you sacrifice so much more? I think your maker will not be happy with you at all.

Welcome to RF!

I'm not a believing Christian anymore (but still a cultural Christian)...

Jesus didn't teach a political system but otherwise I agree with you. At least where I live Christians generally live a decent life, share things, donate, help people... but nowhere near the gospel teachings. Christians don't really stand out as the light of the world. Only a few people are involved in the parish charity work. People in a community are not really connected with each other like one big family (let alone the unity of all Christians around the world). Christian community is not much different than the average non-religious community but there are some positive differences - less suicides, divorces, drug abuse...

Secondly, religion has caused an enormous amount of suffering throughout history. Surely this suggests it doesn't work.

It works anyway. Religion gives many people meaning, hope, joy of life, comfort... It's a lifeline.

As I said there are some benefits. Below is for example a study that shows that greater teenage religious involvement is significantly associated with more positive adolescent life outcomes.

Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers // Youth and Religion // University of Notre Dame

The National Study of Youth and Religion is a research project directed by Christian Smith, Professor in the Department of Sociology at the University of Notre Dame and Lisa Pearce, Assistant Professor of Sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This project, generously...

youthandreligion.nd.edu

However you will say there are good things about religion, like community, caring, ritual, etc but can't community groups like your local football club, for example do what religion does. Such as community, caring, working for a similar cause, discipline etc. There are hundreds of groups like this which can make a person feel good and be part of something.

Sure. Today's musical events, entertainment, news or sport events are like a profane liturgy.

See: Dom Karl Wallner: The Profanation of the Sacred and the Sacralisation of the Profane

And if you're worried about what happens after you die, can't you just believe what you want without being part of a religion

Sure. You can hold the same beliefs without being part of the organized religion.

Finally, I think one of the large majority of people are religious is because there parents where, not because they 'found the light'.

Yes, religious upbringing is a strong factor. I'm an exception in my family and it took me many years to deprogramme.

 

[Ebionite]

So these religious people lacking in judgement will be damned

No, there's a remedy for ignorance.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am a Communitarian. I believe everyone should essentially live like monastics or be hunter gatherer kinds...................
Human nature causes the suffering...................
It is not about feeling good though. It is about doing good....................................................
I'm not worried about death. I'm concerned about an after death judgement, but which will go well for me if I do well here and make the best use of my time...............................................

Yes, much human suffering is caused by corrupted humans..
Yes, Jesus was about 'doing good' over feeling good.
Jesus too was Not worried about death because Jesus believed in a resurrection.
Since resurrection is for the righteous and the unrighteous (KJV just and unjust ) Acts 24:15 then, in the resurrection the righteous need to remain righteous, and the unrighteous need to become righteous, in order to avoid an adverse judgement.
Point for now is about the living because living mankind has a date with destiny, so to speak, Jesus will separate living people and those judged as figurative humble 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26; Matthew 25:37.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......................................And now science and research have proven many more important issues relating to humans. For example, Apart form the obvious males and females are the same, not different as religion would have you believe....................................

Sounds as if you have never been married

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I did have a look and you're right, I'm talking about the traditional religions.
Remember though, governments contribute enormous amount of resources into science and research so we, societies can live better in a more harmoniously way. No religion does, including yours.
Religions would rather put their faith in books written thousands of years a go. And you don't need these books or different 'new' age' beliefs to be a loving and caring person.

I find ' traditional religion ' was Not what Jesus was about.
In tradition we find the Golden Rule (Leviticus 19:18) but Jesus enlarged upon the old Golden Rule with his ' New Commandment ' found at John 13:34-35; 15:12 to have the same self-sacrificing love for other as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor MORE than self, more than the old Golden Rule.
Yes, Jesus put his faith/beliefs in books written thousands of years before Jesus.
Jesus based his teachings by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.

Even an atheist can be a loving-and-caring person.
Jesus' story about a neighborly good Samaritan was teaching all of us to widen out, broaden out in showing practical love to someone in distress.
Along with showing love Jesus teaches 'hope' that otherwise mankind would not have.