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"Religionless Christianity"

Is John Spong a true Christian

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 40.0%
  • hmmm....

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5

JRMcC

Active Member
Has anyone heard of John Shelby Spong or read any of his books? Check out this short interview with him: Interview with John Shelby Spong - The United Church Observer There's plenty on you tube too.

I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Check out John Spong and his message and let me know what you think.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Has anyone heard of John Shelby Spong or read any of his books? Check out this short interview with him: Interview with John Shelby Spong - The United Church Observer There's plenty on you tube too.

I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Check out John Spong and his message and let me know what you think.
Depends on how one defines Christianity. If Christianity to you is just the mythical aspects, or to use a movie/tv/video-game term, style over substance, then no one cannot. But if it means more to you than a mini zombie-apocalypse(Jesus and the other Jews risen when he was) with an action-movie climax, it's very possible to be a Christian without the theater of it.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Has anyone heard of John Shelby Spong or read any of his books? Check out this short interview with him: Interview with John Shelby Spong - The United Church Observer There's plenty on you tube too.

I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Check out John Spong and his message and let me know what you think.
I read the link and he is no different than an atheist-materialist in my books; definitely not a Christian.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I don't know what is required to be a "true" Christian, but I don't have any problem with John Spong being "Christian". I haven't read any of his books, although they've been suggested to me a few times.

Regarding the interview, I think it's interesting that he and I seem to share a kind of conviction that there is a challenge facing Christianity in that traditional theology, or that many elements of the traditional myth, are no longer believable. "Pious tripe" he calls it, which might be a bit harsher than how I would put it, but the conviction is similar. So he writes:

"I don’t think you can locate it, and that’s the problem with writing this book. I only have a language bounded by time and space. I’m trying to discuss something that’s not bounded by time and space. I don’t have a language — all I can do is point to it. So I couldn’t go through religious symbols, because they are all located in a supernatural being external to the world who’s sitting in some sort of judgment. And that’s not the God I can communicate anymore. But I don’t think that means there is no God. We need to reconceptualize the human experience of God. The more deeply we understand life, the more deeply we understand God as the source of that life . . . and that’s the direction the Christian faith is going to head in the 21st century."
My reaction is that I agree in some ways with his view of the problem. There is a theological problem with the way many Christians hear the word "God".There are difficulties making sense of the idea of a super-Being who, being separate, creates the universe with perfect metaphysical freedom and omnipotence, with salvation as a purely future judgement leading to heaven or hell, and etc. But his perception of the problem is that it means he can no longer use religious symbols, whereas my discovery has been that the very symbols themselves go much deeper than those theological problems, which are in some ways quite modern. You can find more subtle theological reflection on the "human experience of God" in Christianity. I'm often quoting examples in posts here.

So I don't entirely agree that it's necessary to abandon traditional religious symbols. But I can sympathize with the desire to do so. There are many conversations about "God" that I feel would be easier without the baggage of a lot of presupposed theological conception. But symbols are more than just words denoting conceptual frameworks, they are richer than that. Tradition is not merely the recitation of a rote formula, but the living vision of each generation which has received whatever wisdom may be handed down (tradition: from tradere, to hand down). It's more like a garden than a text, and the wisdom of traditional Christian symbolism is not, for me, just in a doctrine or a creed, but in the testimony of that experience of God which Christians have preserved.The soil has been prepared but we have to grow new plants, so to speak. Even so, I think it's good and useful to have roots and be aware of them, as much as it is also necessary for Christians in the 21st century to give new expression to the experience of God, and to reconcile that experience with the modern world.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't know what is required to be a "true" Christian, but I don't have any problem with John Spong being "Christian". I haven't read any of his books, although they've been suggested to me a few times.

Regarding the interview, I think it's interesting that he and I seem to share a kind of conviction that there is a challenge facing Christianity in that traditional theology, or that many elements of the traditional myth, are no longer believable. "Pious tripe" he calls it, which might be a bit harsher than how I would put it, but the conviction is similar. So he writes:

"I don’t think you can locate it, and that’s the problem with writing this book. I only have a language bounded by time and space. I’m trying to discuss something that’s not bounded by time and space. I don’t have a language — all I can do is point to it. So I couldn’t go through religious symbols, because they are all located in a supernatural being external to the world who’s sitting in some sort of judgment. And that’s not the God I can communicate anymore. But I don’t think that means there is no God. We need to reconceptualize the human experience of God. The more deeply we understand life, the more deeply we understand God as the source of that life . . . and that’s the direction the Christian faith is going to head in the 21st century."
My reaction is that I agree in some ways with his view of the problem. There is a theological problem with the way many Christians hear the word "God".There are difficulties making sense of the idea of a super-Being who, being separate, creates the universe with perfect metaphysical freedom and omnipotence, with salvation as a purely future judgement leading to heaven or hell, and etc. But his perception of the problem is that it means he can no longer use religious symbols, whereas my discovery has been that the very symbols themselves go much deeper than those theological problems, which are in some ways quite modern. You can find more subtle theological reflection on the "human experience of God" in Christianity. I'm often quoting examples in posts here.

So I don't entirely agree that it's necessary to abandon traditional religious symbols. But I can sympathize with the desire to do so. There are many conversations about "God" that I feel would be easier without the baggage of a lot of presupposed theological conception. But symbols are more than just words denoting conceptual frameworks, they are richer than that. Tradition is not merely the recitation of a rote formula, but the living vision of each generation which has received whatever wisdom may be handed down (tradition: from tradere, to hand down). It's more like a garden than a text, and the wisdom of traditional Christian symbolism is not, for me, just in a doctrine or a creed, but in the testimony of that experience of God which Christians have preserved.The soil has been prepared but we have to grow new plants, so to speak. Even so, I think it's good and useful to have roots and be aware of them, as much as it is also necessary for Christians in the 21st century to give new expression to the experience of God, and to reconcile that experience with the modern world.
Sallie McFague also shares the thought that God needs to be reconceptualized. She says that the old metaphors for God simply don't work anymore, in her book, Models of God: Theology for an Ecological, Nuclear Age.

Spong is deeply Christian. He's also deeply controversial -- which is how Xy has always grown -- by juxtaposing itself between the establishment and the message that makes sense.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Spong understands and embodies the spirit of Christianity as well as anyone I know. Anyone unfamiliar with him should watch videos of his sermons and lectures rather than reading his writing. When you see him and hear his voice, there can be no doubt that the central Christian message is something he believes in with all his heart, and it's the most important thing in his life. He just thinks it's infinitely bigger than a text or a set of doctrines can possibly convey, and he recognizes that some traditional ways of communicating it have ended up obscuring the truth of the message and alienating people in the process. Where his detractors differ is that they think those metaphors and figures of speech are the message and are thus non-negotiable, whereas to Spong they are the finger pointing at the moon, not the moon itself. Spong, incidentally, is correct on that count.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?
No and no.

The miracles in the Gospels only come into the tradition at the end of the 1st century. Paul, our earliest source, is clearly unaware of them. Also, they're exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see in that kind of ancient biography, as any classicist knows. Moreover, they're all basically midrashic allusions to the Hebrew Bible, as a way of constructing meaning that 1st-century Jews would understand. They were never meant to be understood as literal, factual statements.

The idea that Jesus literally got up from being dead and started walking around again isn't even something early Christians thought. Paul makes a big point of not believing that. The Gospel authors portray it differently, but only John seems to hang a lot on the idea of corporeal resurrection, and even in his case it's not clear that we're meant to take it literally rather than understanding it as a narrative depiction of a greater mystery.

The fundamentalist view is that you must believe these things in order to be a "true Christian." I say scripture to the fundamentalist is like pearls cast before swine.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Has anyone heard of John Shelby Spong or read any of his books? Check out this short interview with him: Interview with John Shelby Spong - The United Church Observer There's plenty on you tube too.

I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Check out John Spong and his message and let me know what you think.
Your OP question is worded in a difficult way, for me. Do you mean, non-theistic Chrisitianity? Because, I don't ''quote Scripture'', or use it as some infallible argumentation default, or anything. I am however, a theist about Jesus. The Text, ie the ''religion'', is secondary, this means baptism, etc., are all separate from the Theism. I do believe that once someone does not believe that Jesus is G-d, then they are not a Xian. Even if they believe that Jesus is the ''son of god'', which, I believe to be metaphor, but not G-d, they are close to not being Xians... That being said, '''''Christian''''' is denoting a specific part of the beliefs of Jesus adherents; It's a description, not a definition.
Anyways, a follower of Isha has to believe in His ultimate divinity, or I don't think they are practicing the religion. They would be practicing an offshoot, imo, which is fine, as well.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I tend to sympathise with Spong, I do not think that believing ANY element of Christian tradition to be literal truth is essential to being a Christian. There is a wonderful Australian priest called Father Bob who seems to take a similar approach.
 

Typist

Active Member
A religion as old and large as Christianity might be compared to the World Wide Web, there are many entry points.

As example, within the realm of belief there are many different Christian denominations, each with their own take on interpreting the Christian message.

One might also access Christianity through the experience of love, without concerning oneself too much with the belief structure.

There are many different opportunities during a typical day of our lives where we face a choice between relating to the situation from our own needs, or from someone else's. It would seem quite Christian to me to welcome and embrace the surrender challenge all these opportunities present. One could even deliberately place oneself in situations that present these challenges, much as someone else might earnestly read holy books.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Has anyone heard of John Shelby Spong or read any of his books? Check out this short interview with him: Interview with John Shelby Spong - The United Church Observer There's plenty on you tube too.

I'm looking for opinions on this subject. Do you need to believe in all the miracles in the Bible to be a true Christian? Do you need to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Check out John Spong and his message and let me know what you think.
Of course you must believe and live as Jesus did to be a true Christian. Jesus warned that many claiming to be his followers were anything but. "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23) Also 1 John 2:4-6.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Of course you must believe and live as Jesus did to be a true Christian. Jesus warned that many claiming to be his followers were anything but. "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23) Also 1 John 2:4-6.

Well well well. "Works". Now that's interesting. I guess Jesus didn't like those works. /?/
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well well well. "Works". Now that's interesting. I guess Jesus didn't like those works. /?/
These "works" are claims by false Christians of so-called miracles used to demonstrate that they are Jesus followers, when in fact they do not obey the Christ. I believe the Bible speaks of false "Christians" when it says "But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:9,10)
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I haven't read Sponge, but I perceive that despite attracting a lot of media attention he hasn't convinced a lot of people. Like the scholars who have championed the Documentary Hypothesis he has failed to reach a broad audience, and he has lost credibility with fundamentalists. It means he is not going to be the person to bridge the gap between the fundamentalists and the liberals. He's there for those who "Seek to experience Christianity in a new and vibrant way." (From his web site.) In other words, he publicly insults current Christianity without providing much argument except claiming that it isn't 'Fresh' enough and is 'Doomed'. Does he make arguments that address the questions of fundamentalists? He's a resource for some people, but where is the bridge for people who want to cross over?

I should read him and find out what he has to say as well as why people keep trying to get fundamentalists to read him. There is some sort of a disconnect that needs to be addressed.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Problem is, we have nothing but church Tradition to tell us what Jesus believed and how he lived. And that tradition is very sketchy.
We have the historical record in the Bible. Church tradition is not reliable, IMO, but the Bible is.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We have the historical record in the Bible. Church tradition is not reliable, IMO, but the Bible is.
Since the bible is a product of that tradition, it's as tenuous as a reliable historical record as the tradition that created it.
 
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