Religions actively employ the cycle of abuse.

[idea]

Various cults ...

This is a great thread. I have to run, but would be great to put resources on here for identifying cults, etc.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Omg. We’ve already addressed that abusers exist irrespective of religion or one’s definition of religion. That doesn’t change the fact something like 30 dioceses have declared bankruptcy as a result of paying restitution to victims of abuse by members of the church. Do you really think your definition is meaningful to those victims or offers them anything substantive? I’d really wished you’d put on your psychologist hat and contribute to the topic of the conversation. But I fear the thread has been totally derailed and anyone who had interest in discussing such a current issue is long gone. Maybe later it’ll pick up steam. Religious people aren’t exactly known for addressing abuse within their respective organizations. Catholic or otherwise. Sorry I lost my temper a little bit but I’m trying to have a genuine conversation about a relatively specific topic with religious people. We can talk anytime about anything especially if you think it will improve my understanding of reality. But there’s a time and place bud.

Yeah, and we have had similar cases in Denmark, just not just religious ones.

My wife has a book on her bookshelf in the part, where she keeps her work books. It is about the "little evil" in asymmetric power relationships. Sometimes that even grows into a "bigger evil", but it is not unique to religion.

So I will try to be constructive. We are in effect talking about institutionalized abuse, but that is not about religion per se. That is my point.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Signs of Spiritual Abuse

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

This is a great thread. I have to run, but would be great to put resources on here for identifying cults, etc.

Of the kind that you have to worry about, generally look for Personality Types (Stephen McNallen, Jim Jones, the nexium people, Scientology, etc) or a culture that insists upon individual worthlessness and a need for the "Greater Whole" or some rot.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I've no problem isolating groups.

This is a problem seen in religions with a strict doctrine. It's why I'm very against doctrines, as a religious person. Christianity, Islam, Wicca... Various cults therein. Any religion that has a list of "Thou Shalt"s has more red flags than white.

Well, laws also are sometimes a case of "Thou Shalt"s. So if you want to play we versus them, I started by checking both the we and the them.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of the kind that you have to worry about, generally look for Personality Types (Stephen McNallen, Jim Jones, the nexium people, Scientology, etc) or a culture that insists upon individual worthlessness and a need for the "Greater Whole" or some rot.

That also happens in some other cases.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Well, laws also are sometimes a case of "Thou Shalt"s.

And some laws are ridiculous, stupid, serving only the Few, racist, discriminatory, and/or only intended for profit. What's your point?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe religious people frequently employ the cycle of abuse as a method for indoctrination and inculcating unquestioning devotion.

All of them? Most of them? Some of them? All religions? Most religions? Some religions?

You believe? Not sure where to go with this other than noting that you clearly seem to believe that it's useful to paint inordinately sloppy strokes with an inordinately broad brush and encourage others to do the same. The resulting mural is virtually guaranteed to be artless.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And some laws are ridiculous, stupid, serving only the Few, racist, discriminatory, and/or only intended for profit. What's your point?

Well, thank you for your answer.

 

[infrabenji]

All of them? Most of them? Some of them? All religions? Most religions? Some religions?

You believe? Not sure where to go with this other than noting that you clearly seem to believe that it's useful to paint inordinately sloppy strokes with an inordinately broad brush and encourage others to do the same. The resulting mural is virtually guaranteed to be artless.

I wish you would have read the whole post including the edit or any post after. I clearly outline why I used such general terminology. I guess it’s easier to muddy the water over a definition than it is to have a conversation about a real world issue that effects many people every day. How do you know a victim of abuse within the Catholic Church or maybe your own affiliation isn’t watching? Do you think your contribution would help them identify and resolve issues relating to their abuse? Isn’t that the thesis of this thread? To identify the mechanisms that enable abuse within religious organizations and help people who are unknowing participants extricate themselves from their own abuse. Or maybe I just posted this so you could hear yourself talk. I hope you’re not a theist because that was incredibly selfish.

 

[1213]

I believe religious people frequently....

Please explain why?

 

[idea]

Quite a few religious groups fail the cult test:
Cult Test | Cult Escape | Are you In A Religious Cult?

The BITE model is good I think
Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control

 

[Shakeel]

Signs of Spiritual Abuse

I find issues with that article and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's alright until...

Signs of Spiritual Abuse

Religion and spirituality should be a source of comfort, peace, community, and inspiration in your life. If that is not the case, you could be experiencing spiritual abuse.

Or you could be experiencing lack of faith. Anyway, isn't just about everything they sell people these days supposed to be "a source of comfort, peace and inspiration in one's life"? And at the same time, that's definitely not what all religions - if any - are all about.

You may be experiencing spiritual abuse if your religious leadership or intimate partner is using scriptures or religious beliefs to control your:

• Clothing
  
• Behavior
  
• Sexuality
  
• Decision making
  
• Choice to have children or not
  
• Finances

Optimistically, I would assume this means literally forcing someone to do something, but it could well be misunderstood to mean that any religious guidance is either abuse or borders abuse.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Depends on the religious group. But I think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Basically I find ' religion ' can trace its roots all the way back to ancient Babylon.
As the people migrated away they took with them their 'religious-myth' ideas and practices ans spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
Thus, we are basically speaking about ' religion' as being man made to suit man.
Whereas, what Jesus taught was about ' pure worship ' of his God and Father - John 4:23-24

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I wish you would have read the whole post including the edit or any post after. I clearly outline why I used such general terminology.

Yes, you did. I found it to be a shallow and disingenuous rationalization.

 

[infrabenji]

Please explain why?

Great question! I said I "believe religious people frequently" because of the personal testimony of so many religious people over the past 20 years I've been at this and the testimony of so many more, from all manner of religious backgrounds, that can be heard or seen all over the news and on line around the world. Now I know I have made what some people are calling generalizations but hopefully I explained that sufficiently for you in the edit of my original post. I know that abusers also exist outside of religious organizations. I think the main purpose of this thread is to identify, if any, the mechanisms that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if needed, extricate themselves. I've given some examples of what mechanisms I think are used to take advantage of others and examples of what I consider to be the by product of the abuse. Do you have any in mind? Have you come across someone who was abused in some way by a religious organization or individual within a religious organization? I bet we all have or have at least heard of someone. I know it's hard for people to accept that there may be abusers within their own organizations and talking about abuse even in a general context is difficult for many but, there are many more yet who have been or are in the cycle of abuse and need help. The purpose of this thread I believe is to provide information and insight to ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. Some may be watching now? The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to demean or diminish the value of their beliefs or organizations. I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. I have no interest on this thread in holding someone's feet over the fire for their religious beliefs. We are all in this one together.

 

[Orbit]

I’m surprised to see what looks like a lot of obfuscation. If this wasn’t a public place where people could be hurt any number of ways by the sensitive nature of the material it would be easy to just simply state the types of abuse and what religious individuals and groups either condone or commit them. What we should be focusing on is how to identify and combat the abuse and how to help others who are being abused extricate themselves. We all know that abusers exist in both religious and non religious groups. The purpose of my argument here is to shed light on specific religious practices that seem innocuous but in some cases, too many imo, condition a person to accept abuse and keep them willfully and unknowingly in the cycle.

I think you are referring specifically to Christian fundamentalists, who subscribe to "spare the rod and spoil the child", literal interpretations of an (inerrant) Bible, along with authoritarian parenting styles derived from the model of an angry judgmental God having complete (unquestion-able) authority. These are practices that are specific to that group, but that doesn't mean every family in that group engage in abuse. It suggests the question "When does "my beliefs" become abuse? LGBTQIA conversion therapy? Spanking? Guilt trips? Shunning?

 

[infrabenji]

Yes, you did. I found it to be a shallow and disingenuous rationalization.

What exactly did you find shallow and disingenuous about my post? I'm curious because I can still make adjustments as this is not my goal. I just told another person that I think the main purpose of this thread is to identify, if any, the mechanisms that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if needed, extricate themselves. Also, I feel this thread can serve to provide information and insight for ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to demean or diminish the value of their beliefs or organizations. I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. I have no interest in being shallow or disingenuous or in holding someone's feet over the fire for their religious beliefs. This is a current issue in many societies and is something I thought the intellectual giants on this forum could provide a lot of insight for. Religious or non religious isn't as important when it comes to helping others selflessly.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s well said. I’m definitely borrowing that last line lol. I wasn’t sure initially how the thread would be received and I didn’t want anyone to feel targeted personally especially if they’re a victim of abuse. But I agree, I personally have no problem with isolating groups and now that I think about it maybe I should have just given specific verifiable examples of abuse by their religious organizations to jumpstart a dialogue with religious people. Maybe it’ll pick up. Who knows.

I asked you about what you meant by cycle of abuse, and you cited a psychologist who clearly defined cycle of abuse as the pattern within any domestic relationship as being cyclical in nature, with 4 basic steps. This is very specifically one type of abuse. So then I figured that was the topic. But now it's about institutionalised abuse, from institutions. So what exactly is it that you wish to discuss? Abuse by clergy? Abuse by parents? Abuse by institutions? Drug abuse?

Have you offered up any solutions? For spousal abuse, the recommendation of divorce by counsellors of all kinds might help. We could promote divorce, for that reason. In education, although it's already done in many countries, we could allot more resources and money to the idea and teaching of what it is, and that it's just plain wrong. Some excellent examples have been set by a couple of sports leagues, like the NFL where they have zero tolerance, and abusers have been cut from teams. The likes of Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby have been jailed in part because of programs like 'Me too'.

I'm interested in discussing solutions for any abuse, but not interested in using it as a reason to bash religion.

 

[infrabenji]

I think you are referring specifically to Christian fundamentalists, who subscribe to "spare the rod and spoil the child", literal interpretations of an (inerrant) Bible, along with authoritarian parenting styles derived from the model of an angry judgmental God having complete (unquestion-able) authority. These are practices that are specific to that group, but that doesn't mean every family in that group engage in abuse. It suggests the question "When does "my beliefs" become abuse? LGBTQIA conversion therapy? Spanking? Guilt trips? Shunning?

I think that's a valid point. It's not the point I'm trying to make lol but it is a valid one. These practices as you mentioned are found in many religions and also cults. But no I don't think belief necessarily means that one will become abused or become an abuser. In my experience, as many people have mentioned, people often do not realize their role as abuser or abused. Of course some do it intentionally. I think the purpose of having this conversation is to sus out the methods and mechanisms that are used in different religions that precipitate and perpetuate the abuse and to help give insight to ourselves and others on how and why this occurs so we can help other people who are suffering. The title is a little inflammatory I get that. I'm just not sure how to re word it in a short sentence that will draw in people for discussion. If you have any ideas or insights about the topic let us know. This is a conversation we should be able to have regardless of belief as it effects everyone. Even atheists.