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Religion's greatest achievement

SkylarHunter

Active Member
In your personal opinion, what is organized religion's greatest achievement (it can be in general, or one religion in particular)?

I think the sense of community, of belonging to something greater, gives people purpose, but then that's not exclusive of religions.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think one of the greatest achievements of Christianity might have been to introduce to a broad audience, so to speak, the notion (apparently derived in whole or part from Judaism) that the elites are not, by virtue of their power, etc, subject to a different morality than the common people. A murder by the king is still a murder, just as if it were a murder by a common person. So far as I understand it, this was a notion largely absent from Greece and Roman cultures, which were more inclined towards the view that might makes right.

Related to that is the Christian notion that "all souls are equal before God". The notion appears to have played a role in the development of democracy in the West.

But perhaps the single greatest achievement of organized religion in general traces back to the Sumerian civilization, among others. The Sumerians linked religion and politics in such a way that religion provided the ideological justification for the political elite. That was a scam, but a useful one at the outset of civilization for it promoted the political stability necessary for civilization to exist. The basic idea/scam was that the gods had ordained the elites to be in charge of things. Of course, the notion is more problematic than beneficial today, when we no longer need it in order to have a stable society.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think the sense of community, of belonging to something greater, gives people purpose, but then that's not exclusive of religions.

Jared Diamond has argued that at least some religions helped to make possible large, complex societies by teaching that anyone -- even a stranger -- who believed the same religion as you was to be treated as a member of your "in-group". This promoted social cohesion to the extent that it meant you could have large, complex societies of people who were mostly strangers to each other.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think one of the greatest achievements of Islam has been the humane emphasis it's placed on charity and care for the poor and less fortunate.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Hinduism and Buddhism strike me as providing a wealth of insight into human psychology -- especially as regards mystical states of awareness.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In your personal opinion, what is organized religion's greatest achievement (it can be in general, or one religion in particular)?

I think the sense of community, of belonging to something greater, gives people purpose, but then that's not exclusive of religions.

Organised religion served for thousands of years as a repository for human knowledge. We are a lot more used to religions that are fundamentalist or literalist nowadays but that was not historically true. In that sense religion, like science can be, was a way to empower us with knowledge as a means and source for our aspirations. Whilst science has become a more reliable and superior method to organise our understanding, religious belief can still occasionally come up with the right answers, but often takes a much longer route to doing so. It is older, cruder and more reliant on philosophical understanding, but the growth of scientific knowledge will only supersede our religious understanding. Religion will however tell the story of our pursuit of self-knowledge and will continue to have value even as we discard it. We cannot understand our ancestors without also understanding their beliefs. Even with the helplessness and insignificance before supernatural forces that comes from a pre-scientific age dependent on agriculture and the unstable climate for our survival, there remain some truth in it as part of our humanity.

Along with ancient artefacts, beautifully illustrated texts, icons and stained glass and various symbols of ritual and power, It will make an excellent museum exhibit safely encased behind bullet proof glass. ;)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I think one of the greatest achievements of Christianity might have been to introduce to a broad audience, so to speak, the notion (apparently derived in whole or part from Judaism) that the elites are not, by virtue of their power, etc, subject to a different morality than the common people. A murder by the king is still a murder, just as if it were a murder by a common person. So far as I understand it, this was a notion largely absent from Greece and Roman cultures, which were more inclined towards the view that might makes right.

Related to that is the Christian notion that "all souls are equal before God". The notion appears to have played a role in the development of democracy in the West
.

Those are two (absolutely) brilliant points.

In the ancient world of classical Greece and Rome, these civilisations had an underlying belief in "natural inequality". Aristotle argued that the primal and legitimating factor for according citizenship was leisure and not "human dignity". The farmer therefore, while having a profession upon which the welfare of the polis depended for survival, was excluded from citizenship on the basis that he lacked leisure-time in which to seek the ‘good life’ of virtue and reason in the agora. Having both a job and citizenship rights were seen as two inimical things.

Likewise, throughout the imperial era the Roman emperor was 'above the law' and the law in point of fact “originated” from his authority. So he was not subject to the same moral duties or prohibitions as his 'subjects', even in theory.

The Athenian democracy, which the scholar Held characterizes as fundamentally dependant on “exclusivity”, had a slave population which in relation to the minute class of free citizens has been estimated at 3:2 meaning that the overwhelming majority of Athenian residents were not even citizens, as with women due to the patriarchal nature of society and alien migrants. Leisure for a minority enabled by the labour of others, whether slave or simply non-citizen, was a central dogma of classical citizenship.

Rights were not seen as universally applicable - different classes of people possessed lesser or superior rights and this was understood to be perfectly 'natural'. Aristotle even went so far as to argue that many people were "naturally" born to be enslaved - sub-human, essentially.

Harry Siedentop in the book "Inventing the Individual: The Origins of Western Liberalism" explains the moral intuitions underpinning Christianity changed this:


https://newrepublic.com/article/119511/how-liberalism-lost-its-way-religious-roots-ideology


As Siedentop shows, the ancient world was not in the least like the Enlightenment’s understanding of it. Far from nurturing freedom, whether positive or negative, its cultures were shot through with hereditary inequalities of status, opportunity and expectation. Social roles were rigidly prescribed and, in effect, inescapable. Escape would be self-exclusion from the city and that was a kind of living death.

Patriarchy was fundamental to the social order. This was ordained by the household gods; it was the patriarch’s duty to serve them and he derived his authority from this role. The city was an association of families, each with its own cult, not of individuals. The family heads, who were by definition men, were priests as well as citizens. Women, slaves and the foreign-born, on the other hand, were not citizens and could not aspire to citizenship; the public realm of argument and debate that set the city’s course was not for them. In Athens, arguably the ancient world’s most famous city state, full citizens comprised only about a tenth of the population.

The next stage in Siedentop’s argument is the most explosive. He shows that the gravedigger of antiquity’s implacable nexus of practices and beliefs was precisely the Christian revelation...What the historical Jesus believed and taught is uncertain, though he patently thought that the world was about to end and that the marginalized poor had at least as good a chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as the rich and powerful. The real significance of his life lay in his death and its aftermath. For his followers, as Siedentop puts it, Christ’s crucifixion and the Resurrection that they believed had followed it were “a moral earthquake,” a “dramatic intervention in history.” For St. Paul, the true architect of the Christian religion, that intervention was inherently egalitarian and individualistic. The fatherhood of God implied the brotherhood of man and (an even more revolutionary implication) the sisterhood of woman.

Irrespective of their social roles, all individuals—slaves as well as the free, women as well as men—were equal in the sight of God. The inegalitarian integument of ritual, heredity and prescription that had held the ancient city together was replaced by an egalitarian union of all in the “body of Christ.” God’s grace was available to everyone, sinners included: souls were equal.

In a striking passage, Siedentop suggests that the scenes of Christ’s Passion and Resurrection painted on the walls of medieval churches “testified that the immortal soul, rather than the immortal family, was the primary constituent of reality.” The doctrine of the incarnation lay at the heart of Christian egalitarianism. The deity was no longer remote and awe-inspiring, like the Jewish Yahweh was. God was within us and “us” meant all of us.

To followers of this world-view, the elaborate, God-given taboos that governed daily life among the Jewish people were not just pointless; they were also offensive. God was no longer tribal. He was universal. The multiple, local gods of pagan Greece and Rome—and, for that matter, the similarly multiple gods of the barbarian invaders who overwhelmed the increasingly decrepit western Roman empire in the 5th century—were swallowed up in that universality...

Siedentop writes in the book:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f_6EBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=liberalism+origins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY2cyip47NAhXBBcAKHdkHCzcQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=liberalism origins&f=true


"...In its basic assumptions, liberal thought is the offspring of Christianity. [Modern] liberalism emerged as the moral intuitions generated by Christianity were turned against an authoritarian model of the church.

The roots of liberalism were firmly established in the arguments of philosophers and canon lawyers by the fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries: belief in a fundamental equality of status as the proper basis for a legal system; belief that enforcing moral conduct is a contradiction in terms; a defence of individual liberty, through the assertion of fundamental or 'natural' rights; and, finally, the conclusion that only a representative form of government is appropriate for a society resting on the assumption of moral equality..."
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Not sure, but I have a strong feeling that religion, in general, is the reason morals we have today exist. I know that morals are a human trait, but having it becoming systematic did not start with secular laws, but with religions.

Also, speaking of laws, I think religion is what started the sense of having civil laws and what inspired having civil laws in the first place.

Please correct me if you see I'm wrong.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Convincing the masses that they are incapable of reasoning and/or understanding for themselves.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I think that's a more modern affect. I imagine things weren't so literal a few centuries ago.


Seriously?? The Church owned the populace centuries ago. When the Church said "Jump" the people said "How High?'' Case in point, The Spanish Inquisition.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Seriously?? The Church owned the populace centuries ago. When the Church said "Jump" the people said "How High?'' Case in point, The Spanish Inquisition.

Not the entire story, not at all actually.

Read this:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...NAhWsCMAKHaKAB3IQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


"...It is in a letter of Innocent III, written in 1201...A woman called Guleilma had left her husband, alleging consanguinity, recently discovered. But the husband was also notoriously violent. To outsider with partial knowledge of the facts, the true motive of the wife must seem doubtful. Was hr desertion really due to her discovery of an impediment? Or vice versa?...[If so] they might excommunicate her for disobedience. This was the question that came to Pope Innocent III...

None the less, Innocent's wisdom insisted, she must obey her conscience...

Innocent III's letter would be duly preserved in Gregory IX's Decretals where it would calmly declare to every student of the subject, without ant special warning of the time-bomb it actually contained, the ultimate supremacy of conscience. Hostiensis himself, the most zealous apostle of the pope's fullness of power, expressly acknowledged that the authority of conscience was in the last resort even greater..."​


Here are Pope Innocent III's (1198-1216) actual words in the letter to that woman:


"...No one ought to act against his own conscience and he should follow his conscience rather than the judgement of the church when he is certain...one ought to suffer any evil rather than sin against conscience..."


Some commentary on this:


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...7NAhXiB8AKHYvQBBQQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q&f=true


"...The basic idea of the supreme authority of conscience had already been endorsed, in stronger terms [than ever before], by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)...Here one sees the beginnings of the idea that conscience can trump even the objective law.

Noah Feldman observes that the idea of freedom of conscience is already being suggested here: 'If it was sinful to act against conscience, there might be reason to avoid requiring anyone to act against conscience'..."

So here you have a medieval Pope telling a woman that her individual conscience is ultimately supreme even over the authority of the Pope or Church. The medieval Church didn't take the logic of this moral doctrine to its inevitable conclusions but later thinkers did.

Folks often "think" they know how medieval people ticked (i.e. "I'm going to go medieval on your ***!"). But on many occasions they haven't actually read what those people had to say for themselves.

Your view of the medieval Catholic Church is a common one - based upon a number of isolated periods of intense persecution such as the Roman Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition - but it is not really accurate, certainly not with regards to its official theology on the matter both then and now.

What the Church didn't see coming down the line was that its own doctrine of the "supremacy of conscience" would one day be used against the Church itself...en masse...I'm thinking Protestant Reformation and the French Revolution here....

As the old saying goes, "Revolutions eat their children".
 
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DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
In your personal opinion, what is organized religion's greatest achievement (it can be in general, or one religion in particular)?

I think the sense of community, of belonging to something greater, gives people purpose, but then that's not exclusive of religions.
Peace be on you.
Rights!
Understanding of Rights of God and Rights of People and other Creation, and how to pay them under divine teaching -- for the comprehensive peace.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
According to the comedian George Carlin, the only contribution Christianity made to the world was the music. He meant the music composers were commissioned to write for the Roman Catholic Church.

What Jews say of themselves is that the Torah is their only contribution to the world. I am of the Jewish faith, a Noahide, and I say Moses was the greatest legislator of all time, greater than Hammurabi.

But George Carlin, although joking when he said it, said the greatest thing a Catholic Church can contribute to you is free donuts and coffee and good music to listen to. Remember Carlin was raised Catholic.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In your personal opinion, what is organized religion's greatest achievement (it can be in general, or one religion in particular)?

I think the sense of community, of belonging to something greater, gives people purpose, but then that's not exclusive of religions.

I was going to say what you mentioned. I guess also a sense of identification reflected from like-minded people. A sense of belonging. Especially if a religion is world wide and is influential from politics to lay people, I notice people have a sense of "why aren't you a part of us". They have a sense of value. Even if Christians are loners, just knowing that he or she isn't the only Christian (for example) or Muslim in the world has a sense of togetherness that these religions may feel outsiders don't have.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think one of the things that religion has done well is it has given license to people to believe in something beyond themselves. It codified superstition and made it acceptable. That is no small feat.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
As a whole, I would have to say that Organized Religion has been very effective as a means of unifying people.
Whether this be providing a sense of belonging, or making people easier to manage politically.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
As a whole, I would have to say that Organized Religion has been very effective as a means of unifying people.
Whether this be providing a sense of belonging, or making people easier to manage politically.
Which, necessarily, created an artificial division in humanity between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are always portrayed in disparaging terms. Go figure.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Which, necessarily, created an artificial division in humanity between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are always portrayed in disparaging terms. Go figure.

That's not always true, Ymir.....
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
That's not always true, Ymir.....
I suppose, but no one really cares about the fringe groups. :) The Bahia's are a bit of an oddity and much of the reason they are so accommodating is that the Muslim world at the time of the Bahai inception would have obliterated the fledgling religion otherwise. Your founders were hounded and imprisoned almost for sport and Bahia's are persecuted, mainly by Muslims, to this very day.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
I suppose, but no one really cares about the fringe groups. :) The Bahia's are a bit of an oddity and much of the reason they are so accommodating is that the Muslim world at the time of the Bahai inception would have obliterated the fledgling religion otherwise. Your founders were hounded and imprisoned almost for sport and Bahia's are persecuted, mainly by Muslims, to this very day.

Yes, I know, but that serves as a testament to the resilience and perseverance of my brothers and sisters, and OUCH! :p
 
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